Still working on GTIA V-Gate?

[cbelcher]

Yes, I will if I go into the machine again - but after removing the socket I just soldered the UGV in directly and had to solder the wires directly to the UGV - a header with a connector on it was going to be questionable.   Drilled a hole in the cast aluminum and ran it out to a DIN-5 on the left side.

[+mytek]

6 hours ago, cbelcher said:

Yes, I will if I go into the machine again - but after removing the socket I just soldered the UGV in directly and had to solder the wires directly to the UGV - a header with a connector on it was going to be questionable.   Drilled a hole in the cast aluminum and ran it out to a DIN-5 on the left side.

That's a good enough explanation -- no pic needed

 

Did you wire up the VGATE function to a switch, or just leave it default to always on?

 

The RF channel switch works very well for this function, so long as you don't plan on using RF.

[+mytek]

I was looking through some images I mocked up several months ago, and found this one for the UGV mounted in a CPU card for a 400/800.

 

 

And yes it's readily apparent that the header J2 would extend into the edge card connector area. Since that's mainly ICSP related and really only needed to flash the PIC chip it could be left out (one pin does double as a means to disable VGATE via a switch, but that's optional). Flashing could be done by using a pin header on the programmer's ICSP connection, and simply pressing that into the pad holes on the UGV.

 

I didn't realize at the time I made this mock-up that there would be a height restriction, thus necessitating removal of the original GTIA socket on the CPU card.

 

For those maybe wondering what a UGV (Ultimate Gated Video) is, it's essentially the equivalent to a UAV (Ultra Atari Video) incorporating a VGATE function (Video Gating to eliminate TV over scan). Here's a LINK to more info.

[cbelcher]

I left VGate on.

 

Also note there are 2 versions of the card that I think depends on which 6502 was used  - my GTIA was on the far left.   

 

Thank you for the interesting project

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, cbelcher said:

Also note there are 2 versions of the card that I think depends on which 6502 was used  - my GTIA was on the far left.

I updated the UGV page on my website to reflect your findings, and although I used that same mock-up image, I added a caption that describes the difference between CPU Card versions. At least this way a person knows what they are getting into with this upgrade on those older machines.

 

Thanks for all the great feedback

 

EDIT: After further review, I refined the warnings and instructions related to the 400/800 install on the UGV webpage.

[Heaven/TQA]

Offtopic: my brain always reads GTA V 

[+mytek]

5 hours ago, Heaven/TQA said:

Offtopic: my brain always reads GTA V 

I can see that

 

Merry Christmas to you.

[pseudografx]

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but what is the actual visible screen area (in hires pixels) with the UGV?

Edited May 18, 2023 by pseudografx

[+mytek]

20 hours ago, pseudografx said:

Not sure if it has been mentioned, but what is the actual visible screen area (in hires pixels) with the UGV?

I'm assuming you mean with the V-Gate feature enabled. Don't really know, since I never counted how much screen area is visible in that situation. In non-V-Gate mode it would be the same as the stock Atari video.

 

Edit: During development I adjusted the timing based on worse case examples of graphical garbage in the over scan areas, and closed the view window just enough to blank out that garbage while also centering the view window. This was done with precise delays running within the PIC12F1572's program, which were triggered on each horizontal sync pulse.

[wildstar87]

The switch listed in the BOM is on backorder, trying to find a substitute, what's the minimum current and voltage rating?

[+mytek]

48 minutes ago, wildstar87 said:

The switch listed in the BOM is on backorder, trying to find a substitute, what's the minimum current and voltage rating?

Any 2-position dip switch should work. The voltage rating and current won't even factor into it. However if you don't have a need to decrease the 1 Vpp video output, it can be left out.

[wildstar87]

I figured, but the switch you had on the bom is actually on the higher side current rating, 100ma, vs 25ma of others, so just wanted to make sure it wasn't that way for a reason.  Thanks

[+DjayBee]

I recently acquired an UGV to put into my PAL 600XL but it won't fit because it overlaps with U24. I tried  stacking it with an additonal socket which remediates the overlapping problem but now the stack is too high, GTIA touches the keyboard from below and the case cannot be closed anymore

 

Is it PAL-specific that this socket is populated or can/must U24 be removed when an UGV is installed?

 

[Overange]

43 minutes ago, DjayBee said:

I recently acquired an UGV to put into my PAL 600XL but it won't fit because it overlaps with U24. I tried  stacking it with an additonal socket which remediates the overlapping problem but now the stack is too high, GTIA touches the keyboard from below and the case cannot be closed anymore

 

Is it PAL-specific that this socket is populated or can/must U24 be removed when an UGV is installed?

 

Why don't you solder U24 into the mainboard?

[+mytek]

4 hours ago, DjayBee said:

I recently acquired an UGV to put into my PAL 600XL but it won't fit because it overlaps with U24. I tried  stacking it with an additonal socket which remediates the overlapping problem but now the stack is too high, GTIA touches the keyboard from below and the case cannot be closed anymore

I don't own a PAL 600XL, so I never noticed that U24 clearance issue.

 

4 hours ago, DjayBee said:

Is it PAL-specific that this socket is populated or can/must U24 be removed when an UGV is installed?

Its use appears to be PAL specific judging by this photo I have of an NTSC board. EDIT: It's a 74LS74 dual flip-flop which forms the PAL color burst clock along with those missing components -- so no you can't eliminate it.

 

 

4 hours ago, Overange said:

Why don't you solder U24 into the mainboard?

Sounds like the best, and probably only solution since as the OP pointed out stacking puts the UGV too high to close the computer's lid all the way.

[wildstar87]

@mytek, trying to track down non-working onboard video, in an otherwise working 800XL (can hear functional audio/SIO sounds).  Have plugged in a known working good UGV/GTIA, into this 800XL, and am not getting video out of the UGV either, it is outputting directly to the S-video jack board, not to the Din5.  I've tested this UGV/GTIA "module" in 3 other machines, and it works fine, but plugged into this 800XL, no video, and have re-verified it works in other machines.  What would cause UGV to not output video in this machine, but otherwise work in others?  Since the machine is booting, GTIA is working.  I'm guessing this will be the source of the onboard stock video problem as well.  It is an NTSC machine, and the Din5 video was definitely working in the past.  I also swapped the Antic for a known working good.

 

Any ideas off the top of your head?

[+mytek]

13 hours ago, wildstar87 said:

What would cause UGV to not output video in this machine, but otherwise work in others?  Since the machine is booting, GTIA is working.  I'm guessing this will be the source of the onboard stock video problem as well.  It is an NTSC machine, and the Din5 video was definitely working in the past.  I also swapped the Antic for a known working good.

 

Any ideas off the top of your head?

What I'm not seeing is that you tried swapping the GTIA from the known good machine into the non-working one. Keep in mind that a lot can be malfunctioning in the GTIA video-wise, and the machine will still boot so long as the chip's clock divider is functioning. GTIA being the problem seems almost certain since both the UGV and stock video are not working and you've already tried replacing the Antic chip. Being that you are hearing the proper sounds and I'll assume you are hearing clicks from the keys as well, I'd say that the CPU, Pokey, and PIA are all functioning.

[wildstar87]

9 hours ago, mytek said:

What I'm not seeing is that you tried swapping the GTIA from the known good machine into the non-working one. Keep in mind that a lot can be malfunctioning in the GTIA video-wise, and the machine will still boot so long as the chip's clock divider is functioning. GTIA being the problem seems almost certain since both the UGV and stock video are not working and you've already tried replacing the Antic chip. Being that you are hearing the proper sounds and I'll assume you are hearing clicks from the keys as well, I'd say that the CPU, Pokey, and PIA are all functioning.

Sorry should have mentioned, I have tried a different GTIA from a working machine, also the UGV that I have been swapping between machines, the GTIA has stayed in the UGV, so it is definitely working, just no picture when I put into this particular machine.

[+mytek]

On 6/28/2023 at 9:04 AM, wildstar87 said:

Sorry should have mentioned, I have tried a different GTIA from a working machine, also the UGV that I have been swapping between machines, the GTIA has stayed in the UGV, so it is definitely working, just no picture when I put into this particular machine.

With that info, I'm as stumped as you are, and unfortunately have no suggestions for you to try. But I think it's safe to assume that there is something wrong with that one machine. As to what? I don't know.

[wildstar87]

No problem, just thought if it was something quick, you might know.

[wildstar87]

Not sure if you read the other thread, but long story short, the machine has an issue with the Chroma line that I have to figure out, but the LCD monitor I'm using, won't display without both signals present, so even though Luma was working, Chroma wasn't, so it refused to display, even in B/W.  Chroma is mostly non-functional out of the UGV, I'm getting a repeating, momentary color flicker, so have to find out why it's doing that.

[wildstar87]

Hi @mytek, I ran into a bit of a strange problem.  I'm trying to run UGV with Sophia2, and am not getting any color.  Sophia2 works fine with UAV, so I'm guessing for some reason, UGV thinks it's in a PAL system?  I tried this in multiple machines, so it doesn't seem to be machine specific.  Any ideas?  Is there a way to force UGV into NTSC mode?

[Beeblebrox]

20 minutes ago, wildstar87 said:

Hi @mytek, I ran into a bit of a strange problem.  I'm trying to run UGV with Sophia2, and am not getting any color.  Sophia2 works fine with UAV, so I'm guessing for some reason, UGV thinks it's in a PAL system?  I tried this in multiple machines, so it doesn't seem to be machine specific.  Any ideas?  Is there a way to force UGV into NTSC mode?

I may be missing something but are you plugging Sophia2 into the UGV, which in turn is just sitting in the GIA socket, and using it's DVI, but getting black and white?

 

Or are you just using Sophia 2 for the GTIA replacement, but ugv on Din3 as the output? Is UGV wired to the chroma signal to give the cable chroma?

 

CVBS (composite), Luma and Chroma should be wired to their respective signal points on the pcb. So on the XE its L7, L9 and L31 respectively and 3 x grounds. Then 4050 is removed.

 

Also perhaps you need to tweak the settings in the Sophiaconfig software if you are using DVI? Maybe one setting is stopping a colour signal?

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, wildstar87 said:

Hi @mytek, I ran into a bit of a strange problem.  I'm trying to run UGV with Sophia2, and am not getting any color.  Sophia2 works fine with UAV, so I'm guessing for some reason, UGV thinks it's in a PAL system?  I tried this in multiple machines, so it doesn't seem to be machine specific.  Any ideas?  Is there a way to force UGV into NTSC mode?

If you are only getting B&W, that would not be due to NTSC/PAL detection in the UGV VGATE circuit. That detection merely selects which polarity of color bias signal gets supplied when in the gated section of the over scan. The worse effect that can be done if the NTSC/PAL detection is in error, is a visible colored line in the over scan area if VGATE mode is active.

 

54 minutes ago, Beeblebrox said:

I may be missing something but are you plugging Sophia2 into the UGV, which in turn is just sitting in the GIA socket, and using it's DVI, but getting black and white?

I'm curious about this as well. Is it the UGV or the DVI that has no color?

[Beeblebrox]

8 minutes ago, mytek said:

If you are only getting B&W, that would not be due to NTSC/PAL detection in the UGV VGATE circuit. That detection merely selects which polarity of color bias signal gets supplied when in the gated section of the over scan. The worse effect that can be done if the NTSC/PAL detection is in error, is a visible colored line in the over scan area if VGATE mode is active.

 

I'm curious about this as well. Is it the UGV or the DVI that has no color?

If it's the UGV via the DIN5 that's not getting any colour then it'll be down to the chroma signal not being hooked up right from all the A8's pcb's in question to the UGV presumably?

 

If, on the other hand it's via the DVI that the B&W only signal is coming through, I am not sure what could cause this. Unless the gtia socket has issues? If it were on one system I'd also through other suggestions into the mix, but since it's across several systems I wonder if, depending on whether via Din5 or DVI, this is a missing colour signal. (Sorry, over simplifying things here I know).

 

I think more clarification of a particular setup and images of the board and upgrades in situ is needed.  

Edited November 6, 2023 by Beeblebrox