Wipeout Source Released. Would be fun to have on the Jag.

[Atlantis]

Back to topic: Vortek was programmef on an Amiga 1200, right! Could it be possible to do the såme on a Wipeout similar 3D game, that 3D hobby programmer Vlad? aside??

[Lostdragon]

This isn't intended as a Jaguar Vs PlayStation comment, but for anyone interested in how the series progressed on the original Playstation hardware, another snippet from the devs regarding just how far they pushed it.. 

[Gummy Bear]

On 4/19/2022 at 1:23 PM, Zerosquare said:

And you know this because...?

[+Biff Burgertime]

 

Because it sorta rhymes with Atari

[laymanpigeon]

It would be better for most experienced homebrew programmers that dealt with 3D graphics on Jaguar's hardware to work together and make their own.

Don't even consider textures, 50 polygons at most per vehicle and at most 400 polygons of race track being rendered at any point of the race.

800 polygons per frame budget and hope it never goes below 15 framerate.

[Gummy Bear]

Sir Bump-a-lot is on a roll! 

[+thanatos]

On 8/20/2022 at 9:10 PM, Gummy Bear said:

Sir Bump-a-lot is on a roll! 

I'm starting to think one of the old sock puppets has returned.

[+CyranoJ]

2 hours ago, thanatos said:

I'm starting to think one of the old sock puppets has returned.

 

But which sock? Odd, Smelly or Wank?

[Cris1997XX]

On 8/23/2022 at 8:40 AM, CyranoJ said:

 

But which sock? Odd, Smelly or Wank?

I'd say all of them! 😂

[JagChris]

On 4/20/2022 at 6:59 AM, alucardX said:

That would be a really cool idea. What kind  of "lighting" effects could be pulled off with CRY I wonder? I don't expect it would be the same look as lighting effects we normally see, but maybe something unique and cool looking?

You're not stuck with CRY. You can use RGB. It's cool that the Jag is flexible enough to do either.

 

I think the Jag could match most the lighting effects seen on the PSX.

[ArneCRosenfeldt]

"The Blitter can perform Gouraud shading and Z-buffering in sixteen bit pixel mode only" . There is not way to specify the internal format of the sixteen bit. I would assume that the Blitter assumes CRY for Gouraud. Then I fail to see an advantage of 16bit vs 32bit RGB. With textures we need to reduce the resolution like Doom did and thus memory is not a problem ( for frame buffer and z-buffer ). At least have smooth gradients (vertically like Copper on Amiga 😞 )! Probably need Jerry to decompress the mipmap levels as they are requested on screen because 32bit textures overflow our 2 MB total memory quite fast.

 

They said that they ( the Jaguar hardware devs ) thought that Gouraud is the future. Yet, here we are. Gouraud only for Y, not for the full RGBA . Without rgb you can't even do phong hi-lights which are pretty much prior art. Also if they really loved Gouraud: From hardware design perspecitve it is really easy to stick some adders together to generate the values for 4 px on the fly. Then you just store the fourth pixel for you loop. The Jaguar already has an alignment circuit for block move on the chip: Why can't it use it to align the gouraud values? Yeah, needs some routing, but still. Oh, it does not even need to align. Just use the phrase fraction: two optional adds onto the ordinate. And alos please make all coordinates 16.16 fixed point to match the GPU internal format. We need more fractional bits than 8 ( magic number ) to shade accrosse the screen. Saturation can happen on either edge and with alpha is per pixel: So please have 16 bit integer part up until we have to round for the memory bottleneck!

 

With this nice interlaced double buffer, z-buffer access ( not possible on SDRAM or RDRAM ), the blitter can read dest, read-z, write dest, write z.  Compare-z ( so it is realy RGBAZZ ) and shade the pixel ( compare with boundaries so to say ) are hidden by the memory access .. no wait states. No page flipped (most of the time)! No information retained from one phrase to the next ( which would probably lead to strange bugs considering the rushed development ). In reallity the read-to write one cycle loss is still there. Theoretically, one would need to interleave two phrases. This would give us like 4*2+1 memory cycles to hide pixel shader calculation: compare and saturation is quite slow . It would be nice to have some more alpha bits and with so many cycles we can have 8bit factors ( with pre-multiplied alpha ( in the vertice because we are in Gouraud-Land )). We save one read to write wait cycle: Read two phrases of framebuffer and z-buffer, then write both. It is like with the z-buffer, we just would have enough cycles to hide compute. Bugs would then at most cover two phrases. Though looking at the blitter, the team already got the first pixel, rest of the line working. Ah, the Gouraud is just running through. Only the shader part which depends on the read has this tight latency, but pixels are independent here: No bugs!

 

With soo much line-buffer ram compared to any other consolem, the devs would have been obliged to give us proper sky-box or -duodecaeder support in the OP. Then the RGBA framebuffer would even make sense.

Edited September 25, 2022 by ArneCRosenfeldt

[Gummy Bear]

I was just gonna say that! 

[jguff]

7 hours ago, ArneCRosenfeldt said:

"The Blitter can perform Gouraud shading and Z-buffering in sixteen bit pixel mode only" . There is not way to specify the internal format of the sixteen bit. I would assume that the Blitter assumes CRY for Gouraud. Then I fail to see an advantage of 16bit vs 32bit RGB. With textures we need to reduce the resolution like Doom did and thus memory is not a problem ( for frame buffer and z-buffer ). At least have smooth gradients (vertically like Copper on Amiga 😞 )! Probably need Jerry to decompress the mipmap levels as they are requested on screen because 32bit textures overflow our 2 MB total memory quite fast.

 

They said that they ( the Jaguar hardware devs ) thought that Gouraud is the future. Yet, here we are. Gouraud only for Y, not for the full RGBA . Without rgb you can't even do phong hi-lights which are pretty much prior art. Also if they really loved Gouraud: From hardware design perspecitve it is really easy to stick some adders together to generate the values for 4 px on the fly. Then you just store the fourth pixel for you loop. The Jaguar already has an alignment circuit for block move on the chip: Why can't it use it to align the gouraud values? Yeah, needs some routing, but still. Oh, it does not even need to align. Just use the phrase fraction: two optional adds onto the ordinate. And alos please make all coordinates 16.16 fixed point to match the GPU internal format. We need more fractional bits than 8 ( magic number ) to shade accrosse the screen. Saturation can happen on either edge and with alpha is per pixel: So please have 16 bit integer part up until we have to round for the memory bottleneck!

 

With this nice interlaced double buffer, z-buffer access ( not possible on SDRAM or RDRAM ), the blitter can read dest, read-z, write dest, write z.  Compare-z ( so it is realy RGBAZZ ) and shade the pixel ( compare with boundaries so to say ) are hidden by the memory access .. no wait states. No page flipped (most of the time)! No information retained from one phrase to the next ( which would probably lead to strange bugs considering the rushed development ). In reallity the read-to write one cycle loss is still there. Theoretically, one would need to interleave two phrases. This would give us like 4*2+1 memory cycles to hide pixel shader calculation: compare and saturation is quite slow . It would be nice to have some more alpha bits and with so many cycles we can have 8bit factors ( with pre-multiplied alpha ( in the vertice because we are in Gouraud-Land )). We save one read to write wait cycle: Read two phrases of framebuffer and z-buffer, then write both. It is like with the z-buffer, we just would have enough cycles to hide compute. Bugs would then at most cover two phrases. Though looking at the blitter, the team already got the first pixel, rest of the line working. Ah, the Gouraud is just running through. Only the shader part which depends on the read has this tight latency, but pixels are independent here: No bugs!

 

With soo much line-buffer ram compared to any other consolem, the devs would have been obliged to give us proper sky-box or -duodecaeder support in the OP. Then the RGBA framebuffer would even make sense.

 

The AI needs improvement.  Currently ratio'd.

[alucardX]

On 9/25/2022 at 12:36 AM, JagChris said:

You're not stuck with CRY. You can use RGB. It's cool that the Jag is flexible enough to do either.

 

I think the Jag could match most the lighting effects seen on the PSX.

It seems that CRY has an advantage though doesn't it? I'm not sure we'd be seeing some of the lighting effects the PSX pulled off, at least not in the way it pulled them off.

 

I say we just do a Wipeout style game with flat shaded polygons and a shitload of "meltovision" effects. That is an art style the Jaguar would speak well.

[agradeneu]

On 9/25/2022 at 2:36 AM, JagChris said:

 

 

I think the Jag could match most the lighting effects seen on the PSX.

OMG

[JagChris]

It would be interesting to see even a wireframe flythrough on the Jag of the original wipeout tracks.

[agradeneu]

2 hours ago, alucardX said:

It seems that CRY has an advantage though doesn't it? I'm not sure we'd be seeing some of the lighting effects the PSX pulled off, at least not in the way it pulled them off.

 

I say we just do a Wipeout style game with flat shaded polygons and a shitload of "meltovision" effects. That is an art style the Jaguar would speak well.

Doom and Hoverstrike CD show off what lighting effects you can expect from CRY.

 

The Playstation supports alpha blending.

[philipj]

17 hours ago, agradeneu said:

Doom and Hoverstrike CD show off what lighting effects you can expect from CRY.

 

The Playstation supports alpha blending.

The Object Processor supports transparency thus can do similar blending effects...

[agradeneu]

1 minute ago, philipj said:

The Object Processor supports transparency thus can do similar blending effects...

In your fantasy!

[jerseystyle]

On 3/27/2022 at 4:21 PM, Stephen said:

Hey - we just need VladR to come back and finish his masterpiece - he promised it was going to be as good as Wipeout and Need for Speed.  He was so close when he quit working on it too:

This. Always this. I think I’ll be on my deathbed still giggling about this “reveal”. I mean, talk about about insanity unfolding in real time. I still think off and on about what was happening in the months leading up to this. Vlad had to know that this was NOTHING like he was talking about, right? And to find out he’d never actually played any of the games he was critical of… so good. Perfect example of Naked Emperor Syndrome.

[agradeneu]

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” Einstein

 

Some people will never learn, obviously.

[+Sauron]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” Einstein

 

Some people will never learn, obviously.

But...but...the Jag can do MIPMAP Vectoring with full alpha-shading and textured polygons! How do I know this? Because I imagine it to be true!

 

[42bs]

3 hours ago, agradeneu said:

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.” Einstein

 

Well, if you consider quantum effects, there might be different results. But Einstein never accepted this theory IIRC.

[42bs]

4 hours ago, philipj said:

The Object Processor supports transparency thus can do similar blending effects...

The OP can do 0% or 100% transparency. But nothing in between. There might be tricks using the Blitter and it's functions. But that is _not_ HW transparency.

[Cris1997XX]

51 minutes ago, 42bs said:

The OP can do 0% or 100% transparency. But nothing in between. There might be tricks using the Blitter and it's functions. But that is _not_ HW transparency.

But can the Jaguar do Mode 7!?!?