ColecoGamer Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 I apologize for making a new post. I could use some help, please. On second thought (and on closer inspection), I’m not sure if this a lifted trace or something else? Any input on this will be greatly appreciated! (Observation note): You can clearly see damage to the board from a prior user. I’m wondering if the Keyboard chip hadn’t been replaced prior to me removing it from the board. If this is a lifted trace, any idea where it would connect on the board? I have looked for schematics online, but all I keep finding are schematics to the Apple II or IIe. I did notice that the three traces (seen on the far right of the photo) may have to possibly be repaired too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted March 31, 2022 Share Posted March 31, 2022 I'm not really sure what that is. And yeah, from what little I see, that board is a mess. Over on the right, that looks like several traces that are corroded or something to the point they may not be continuous any more. But //c schematics are not hard to find. This was the first result for a Google search "apple iic schematic": http://www.applelogic.org/files/IICSCHEMATIC.pdf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted March 31, 2022 Author Share Posted March 31, 2022 I’m wondering if I should cut the wire and install the new chip (along with fixing those traces on the far-right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 I would start by using the schematics to trace out and figure out what needs to be fixed using the continuity test of a multi meter. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 1 hour ago, nick3092 said: I would start by using the schematics to trace out and figure out what needs to be fixed using the continuity test of a multi meter. What about the lifted trace/wire shown in the photo? Can you tell if its a trace? I’m not so certain it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDevil'sCompass Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 From the picture, it doesn't really look like a trace to me. It kind of looks round, like a wire. If so, definitely not a trace. Might have been a bodge wire to fix a broken trace. What @nick3092 said is the best advice. Check out the schematics, page 3 for the keyboard encoder, and check continuity with your meter between all connections. If you find any that are broken, you'll need to run some thin wire to bridge the break. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) Yeah, I probably should have been a little more clear and said specifically to trace out all connections on the encoder, or in any area you see damage/corrosion. I wouldn't reinstall the new IC until you are sure you have all the bad traces fixed. The last thing you want to do is have to yank that IC out again and risk causing more damage. Granted if you are putting in a socket it, that makes it slightly easier. But you never know if you may need to access under the socket to fix something. So best to check everything before reinstalling. Like the old adage - measure twice, cut once. As for what that mystery thing is, I don't think its the trace. If you look at your picture, I don't see how that could be the trace itself coming from that capacitor. That trace looks mostly, if not completely intact. If 1.5" of that trace had lifted up, you'd be able to tell very easily. As the previous poster noted, probably a bodge wire from a previous repair attempt. Edited April 1, 2022 by nick3092 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 I really appreciate the responses. I plan on working on the IIc’s motherboard tomorrow. I’ll break out the multi meter and start testing continuity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) Sections of that trace are totally missing. And you will need to address the stuff shown on the righthand side of the cropped photo. I'd give it a cleaning first. Continuity check all traces in the area. And go over them with jumpers and bodges till it's right. Parts of the "lifted wire" look like a trace to me because the shadow is inconsistent thickness. A round wire would be consistent. Need another angle and an in-focus image to be sure. I'd offer to fix this all up for you but shipping will be rather expensive, likely $20 each way. Edited April 1, 2022 by Keatah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 34 minutes ago, Keatah said: Sections of that trace are totally missing. And you will need to address the stuff shown on the righthand side of the cropped photo. I'd give it a cleaning first. Continuity check all traces in the area. And go over them with jumpers and bodges till it's right. Parts of the "lifted wire" look like a trace to me because the shadow is inconsistent thickness. A round wire would be consistent. Need another angle and an in-focus image to be sure. I'd offer to fix this all up for you but shipping will be rather expensive, likely $20 each way. What would you charge to fix it? I’m fine with the cost of shipping. And I have a brand-new Keyboard Chip IC to install too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) @Keatah I would mail the entire computer your way. Before this bad trace issue, the machine would turn on, produce a clear picture, and software booted fast. It was the keyboard that didn’t work. Now with the computer apart - and realizing what a mess that area of the board is in - has really been a challenge for me. If you’re up to fixing the board, I would be happy to have you do it! Edited April 1, 2022 by ColecoGamer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) What is the computer not doing that requires repair? Can you show a photo of both sides of the motherboard? Edited April 1, 2022 by Keatah 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 41 minutes ago, Keatah said: What is the computer not doing that requires repair? Can you show a photo of both sides of the motherboard? The keyboard IC chip needs to be installed because the old chip wasn’t working. As soon as I arrive home (I’m at the groomers picking up our dog), I’ll send photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 @Keatah The photos you asked for: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 Wow. Looking at that new pic, it does now look like that is the trace laying there. And it looks like several pads and or vias may be gone as well. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 1, 2022 Author Share Posted April 1, 2022 6 minutes ago, nick3092 said: Wow. Looking at that new pic, it does now look like that is the trace laying there. And it looks like several pads and or vias may be gone as well. What do you think, @nick3092? Is it a lost cause at this point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick3092 Posted April 1, 2022 Share Posted April 1, 2022 (edited) I mean, with time and effort almost any PCB with bad traces is reparable. I think Mobius Strip Tech repaired a Super Grafx where the board had a break in it. I think he said it was around like 140 traces he had to bodge/repair. Another guy managed to repair the traces on another Super Grafx that looked like it was sitting at the bottom of the ocean before he fixed it. Edit: To clarify, almost any 1 or 2 sided PCB is repairable (like the //c). If you start getting into multiple layer boards used in modern stuff, that's a different story. Edited April 1, 2022 by nick3092 Clarification 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 All of this is quite repairable. The question is the level of repair you want. If you don't mind hobbyist-level repair (basic jumper wires and epoxy and enamel, no eyelet replacement, no color matching, no trace thickness and width matching) then it can be done on the cheap and be reliable. If you want it done to IPC Aerospace standards, almost indistinguishable from factory-new, then it will easily cost several times what the board is worth. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDevil'sCompass Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 Ouch! Yeah, the new pic really looks like it's a trace. According to the schematic, probably going there to pin 40. Looks like there might be a few more as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 2, 2022 Author Share Posted April 2, 2022 13 hours ago, Keatah said: All of this is quite repairable. The question is the level of repair you want. If you don't mind hobbyist-level repair (basic jumper wires and epoxy and enamel, no eyelet replacement, no color matching, no trace thickness and width matching) then it can be done on the cheap and be reliable. If you want it done to IPC Aerospace standards, almost indistinguishable from factory-new, then it will easily cost several times what the board is worth. Basic works fine for me, if it gets the board working again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 2, 2022 Author Share Posted April 2, 2022 @Keatah I just want to get the IIc working again, so hobbyist-level repairs work for me. Just so you know - everything but the keyboard worked in this IIc. I bought a replacement chip and began desoldering the old Keyboard IC. When I noticed the damage and lifted trace under the old Keyboard chip, I panicked and came here for help. I wasn’t expecting to encounter so much damage. It does explain why the keyboard didn’t work, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 2, 2022 Author Share Posted April 2, 2022 I’m perfectly fine with sending the IIc to you for hobbyist repairs, @Keatah I just want a working IIc! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 2, 2022 Author Share Posted April 2, 2022 @Keatah, If you do kindly decide to repair these issues for me, do you only want the motherboard and the replacement chip, or do you want me to send everything (i.e. the case, disk drive, etc?). I am perfectly fine with sending everything too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted April 2, 2022 Author Share Posted April 2, 2022 (edited) Even though I am not an expert yet at repairing eveything, I am going to attempt to repair the board. I believe the advice given in this post should be enough to repair my IIc. I know where the damage is, and if I need some advice, I know the good people who frequent the Apple II forum will chime in. I want to learn more advanced repair, and this current issue fits the bill. Wish me luck ladies and gents! ?? Edited April 2, 2022 by ColecoGamer 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted April 2, 2022 Share Posted April 2, 2022 (edited) Luck has been wished..! Hobby-style repairs would use tools such as X-acto knife, 30GA Kynar wire (colorful bodge wire), super-glue, epoxy, low-power under 30W soldering iron, solder-sucker, enamel nail polish, pinpoint flux dispenser, solder, tape, screwdriver set, pliers, cutters.. With just those basics you can repair many things and fix most all Apple II stuff to a high level of reliability. https://www.amazon.com/Circuit-Board-Repair-Kit/s?k=Circuit+Board+Repair+Kit But it takes some practice to do no additional damage while attempting a fix. I always suggest practicing on an old motherboard or something. Desolder all the chips and solder them back in. Replace discrete parts like transistors, resistors, capacitors, for fun. Try your hand at various connectors, especially ones attached to ground planes. Pay attention to how solder flows, the surface tension, the blotting and spreading action. That's half the battle right there. With biggerbux pro-level tools tools you can make everything nice'n'pretty. And cut-down the time needed to perform certain operations. By professional grade I mean things like from CircuitMedics or any other supplier that specializes in such stuff. https://www.circuitmedic.com/index.html Classic computers are easy to work on because most traces aren't frequency sensitive, and thus aren't shape and length critical. Not like today's multi-layer motherboards where signals have to all arrive at the same time - without any RF coupling between lines. Also there are less and smaller ground planes to deal with. And parts are just plain'ol bigger than today's stuff. Conversely, with heated tweezers (and other attachments), surface mount parts are faster and easier to replace than their through-the-hole counterparts. Just like doing a DiamondPainting. Edited April 2, 2022 by Keatah 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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