Golden Child Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 (edited) I did find a version of MSX-Logo that was released by COMTECH in Poland, they call it COMTECH-LOGO (1987) with no LCSI mention. Like the others, the rom is virtually identical with the keywords in English and error messages in Polish. It's so much easier to explore when at least the keywords are in my native language. Also, there's another couple of versions of MSX-Logo that I've found: from EPCOM (HOT-LOGO) Brazil Portuguese? "Benvindo ao Logo", list commands with "primitivas" from Telematica/Talent Argentina "Bienvenido a MSX-Logo", list commands with "primitivas" So that makes 5 different versions : Polish (English keywords/Polish messages), NL, ES, AR and BR. Edited November 5, 2022 by Golden Child 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 Yes! Kept looking and looking, found an Philips English version! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 5, 2022 Share Posted November 5, 2022 Quote Sprite Logo ("second-system syndrome" aside) I think was much better. All 32 sprites were turtles and could draw, even while moving. You could command them in (more-or-less) parallel with TELL, ALL and EACH commands. For more capabilities with the sprite shapes I made the SNAP command which copied the bitmap under the sprite into its shape, and STAMP which copied the shape to the bitmap underneath. Combined with motion, there were a lot of interesting things that could be done. * The first time I went down to Dallas to meet with TI, file transfer consisted of bringing the 990 disk pack on the flight as carry-on. The office was the same one where they had the sound studio for recording for the Speak-and-Spell. When we got there no one was there to meet us, but the door had one of those mechanical push button combination locks. To kill time we started iterating combinations and within half an hour were in. Probably good we didn't get shot. * The TI liason for the project was originally the infamous Al Riccomi, you can google that. I heard he tried to run the project from jail for a time. * TI-Logo had a "demons" feature that ran lists of Logo code asynchronously (I don't remember if it made it into the final product). Mark Gross who implemented it had a PODS (Print Out DemonS) command to list them. So now that I have an english MSXLogo to study, I can say that it is *very* close to Adam SmartLogo. This probably isn't too surprising, in that they are both z80 based machines. Going from the Adam SmartLogo manual and comparing the capabilities, I would say that they are virtually identical. Here's a few pictures showing MSX Logo doing "demons" with on.touch and pods (prints "touch every time they touch), doing stamp (you have to have the pen down to do a stamp, here stamping the cat sprite), and also the ability to define a sprite with getsh/putsh (using a binary pattern to show how it works). 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 8, 2022 Share Posted November 8, 2022 Another Logo that's very similar to TI Logo is Atari Logo (also by LCSI) Can run in mame with ./mame a800 alogo It has sprites, demons and built-in sprite editor (EDSH). It only has 4 sprites that are 8x16 pixels (8 possible images 0-7) compared with TI Logo's 32 sprites (16 x 16 pixels) (0-25 possible images). Screen resolution is 4 colors at 160x192 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 (edited) So how does TI Logo handle turtle graphics on a tiled screen? It reserves 64 characters for the text and uses 192 characters for the turtle graphics, drawing as it goes. Switching different colors quickly exhausts the available tiles, due to colors being restricted to a group of 8 tiles. You have to write your own version of a FOR loop TO TO FOR :VAR :START :END :INC :CODE MAKE :VAR :START LOOP [ IF FOREND (THING :VAR) :END :INC THEN STOP ELSE RUN [ RUN :CODE MAKE :VAR ( THING :VAR ) + :INC ] ] END TO FOREND :VAL :END :INC IF :INC < 0 THEN OP :VAL < :END ELSE OP :VAL > :END END TO LOOP :BLK RUN :BLK LOOP :BLK END TO FILL255 FOR "X 0 255 1 [PUTTILE :X :X / 16 REM :X 16 ] END TO REM :X :Y OP :X - ( :X / :Y ) * :Y END So running FILL255 puts all 255 characters in the upper left quadrant of the screen. This is running FILL255 right after starting logo. and after drawing a bunch of slightly diagonal lines. Here you can see the tiles very clearly with different colors. One thing that's interesting, it that following a CS, the first 8 characters get skipped if you change colors. This gives you 192-8 = 184 character tiles. To "fix" those colors, do a TELL TILE 0 SETCOLOR [ 2 5 ] TELL TURTLE to set the colors to what you would like. Another thing that's interesting is that the turtle doesn't use column 0 or 31 which limits tile use slightly. If you fill the screen with repeated character tiles and have the turtle draw on them you can make some interesting repeating patterns. Edited November 9, 2022 by Golden Child Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 9, 2022 Share Posted November 9, 2022 Interesting reading: THE ’80S AND BEYOND: HUNDREDS OF LOGO DIALECTS from https://people.eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh/HOPL.pdf HISTORY OF LOGO Quote Of the true Logo implementations (ones with the word and sentence functions, not just turtle graphics; see Section 3.4), almost all derive their design directly or indirectly from one of two sources: (1) versions from the MIT Logo Group, for the Texas Instruments 99/4 and for the Apple II; (2) versions from LCSI, starting with Apple Logo. 5.1 Supporting the Myriad New Personal Computers • TI Logo was developed at the MIT Logo Group. Work started in 1978. It was tested at the Lamp- lighter School, Dallas, Texas, in 1979, and released in 1981. The 99/4 computer was a commercial failure, but it was crucially important to Logo history because it allowed a version of Logo that included a graphics coprocessor that, in addition to the usual graphics, introduced sprites (32 color graphic elements of 16x16 pixels). Each sprite could be moved on-screen and manipulated as a single entity. TI Logo used the sprites, and introduced the tell command: tell 12 setspeed 100 to send a message to sprite 12. This was a first small step in the direction of object oriented programming in personal computer Logo. (There was also a standard turtle with a pen.) TI built the sprite chip to support animation for video games, but it also allowed multiple-turtle animation in Logo as a fourth microworld (after natural language, turtle geometry, and the dynaturtle (Section 5.2)), even on non-TI computers with a sprite chip add-on. Eventually, computers became fast enough to support animation without special hardware. • 1981 also saw two versions of Logo for the Apple II. One, from the MIT Logo Group, was licensed to a few companies, most notably Terrapin, which went on to develop versions for other machines and, as of 2020, is still actively developing its version of Logo [Terrapin 2020a,b] and selling floor turtles to use with it. The second Apple version, released as the official Apple Logo, was developed by LCSI. Its design was a deliberate rethinking of personal computer Logo, based on MIT PDP-11 Logo rather than on the earlier microcomputer versions. LCSI, too, went on to produce many further versions of Logo, including a Sprite Logo for the Apple II that came with an add-on circuit board with the TI sprite chip. 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Count9929A Posted November 11, 2022 Share Posted November 11, 2022 Speaking of the acknowledgment of the historical importance of the TI LOGO even by prominent computer scientsts, it is nice to recall that: the 99/4 and Apple II are the two examples of "small computers" capable of running LOGO mentioned in Mindstorms boo, the seminal book about LOGO written by Seymout Papert himself (he is the most known among the LOGO inventors) the TI LOGO manual (the one distributed with TI LOGO 2) was written by Hal Abelson (the author of one of the most important books about fundamentals of programming) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 12, 2022 Share Posted November 12, 2022 Part of the reason I like to read about pioneering computers is that the people who make them are geniuses. An interview with Hal Abelson from 2007. https://www.computerworld.com/article/2552982/the-grill--mit-professor-hal-abelson-on-the-hot-seat.html An interesting story about the game "Dazzle Dart" that was made in the Logo lab (not written in Logo) https://github.com/pdp11/Dazzle-Dart https://gunkies.org/wiki/Dazzle_Dart https://dl.acm.org/doi/pdf/10.1145/1216479.1216482 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 17, 2022 Share Posted November 17, 2022 (edited) One interesting thing I've come across is a computer that was made by some TI engineers in France called the ExelVision EXL-100. It can be run in mame with: ./mame exl100 exelogo CPU: TMS 7020 at 4.9 Mhz[6] Graphics chip: TMS 3556 (40 x 25 character text mode, 320 x 250 pixel graphics mode, 8 colors) Sound: TMS 5220 (with speech synthesis in French)[6] Storage: cartridge port, cassettes, optional floppy disk drive Memory: 34KB RAM (2KB RAM + 32KB Shared VRAM), 4 to 32KB ROM[6 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EXL_100 https://www.old-computers.com/museum/doc.asp?c=123 https://hackaday.com/2016/04/20/liberte-egalite-fraternite-azerty/ (picture of EXL100 with EXELOGO keyboard overlay) It had a version of logo called EXELOGO which has some interesting features, multiple sprites that can be given speeds. I don't think the hardware had actual sprites, they must be done in software. It's kind of fun to try to figure out the english equivalents of the keywords by hex dumping the rom. There was a keyboard overlay, tapping the FCTN key then a letter would type the corresponding keyword for that letter. FVIT = set speed (faire vitesse) EDFORME = edit sprite (also FCTN h) FFORME = set sprite (also FCTN j) PARLE = like TELL sprite QUI = like WHO ECRIS = print TG = turn left AVANCE/AV = forward TD = turn right RE = (reverse) backward VE = home, clearscreen ORIGINE = home HASARD = random MT = show turtle (mette tortue) show turtle CT = cache la tortue (hide turtle) LC = pen up (leve la crayon) BC = pen down (baisse la crayon) COMPTE = count # in list ITEM = item in list TAPE = type LISCAR = get key DONNE = make FX = set X FY = set Y XCOR = xcoord YCOR = ycoord FPOS = setpos [ 10 10] ESTAMPE = stamp sprite I found a french manual for XLogo which has been pretty useful for the basic logo translations: http://xlogo.tuxfamily.org/fr/doc-fr.html What's kind of cool is that XLogo has a built in code translator facility from/to different languages. PRIM = list of all primitives built in sprite editor (EDFORME) 4 sprites (can move with a given speed with FVIT) Edited November 17, 2022 by Golden Child 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 There is at least one person (@humeur) on this forum with an EXELVISION machine in his collection. He may be able to tell you more about this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+FarmerPotato Posted November 18, 2022 Share Posted November 18, 2022 On 4/15/2022 at 11:51 AM, pixelpedant said: I really think if more people gave TI Logo a try, they would have realised how good it is as a tool for designing sprite and tile assets and dumping them to disk, and this would have made it the standard tool for doing that. But evidently Dramis and Urbanus realised this from the get-go! In their interview in 99er, they said they took the tumbling sprites “which we had done for Logo”. I always imagined a bigger story behind that. My exposure to Logo was no more than reading 99er. One time, a friend typed in the Adventure game in 99er —I recall the illustrations, a knight mounted on a turtle? the issue with the wizard on the cover. Anyhow my friend and I typed it in, surely with mistakes, and then couldn’t get it to work. No idea how to debug in Logo. So I missed out on knowing list processing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humeur Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 On 11/17/2022 at 11:51 PM, Golden Child said: Sound: TMS 5220 (with speech synthesis in French)[6] No not in French he does what we tell him to do, he is not specifically French. On this model there is no TMS6021 rom which it can be in specific languages There is a very good emulator for all Exelvision computers http://dcexel.free.fr/ jl 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, humeur said: No not in French he does what we tell him to do, he is not specifically French. On this model there is no TMS6021 rom which it can be in specific languages There is a very good emulator for all Exelvision computers http://dcexel.free.fr/ jl Merci beaucoup! very nice site, with an exelogo manual in a djvu online format. Will have to install a djvu plug in or something... (I just realized that the butterfly is the logo for EXELVISION and they replaced the turtle with the butterfly.) Edited November 21, 2022 by Golden Child Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 On 11/18/2022 at 6:53 AM, FarmerPotato said: Anyhow my friend and I typed it in, surely with mistakes, and then couldn’t get it to work. No idea how to debug in Logo. I think debugging in logo isn't easy. I was baffled for days before I realized that PR in TI Logo isn't a shortcut for PRINT (like in other logos) but PenReverse like xdrawing. I always used PRINT to figure out where things go awry, and using PR made things not work at all! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humeur Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 4 hours ago, Golden Child said: Merci beaucoup! very nice site, with an exelogo manual in a djvu online format. Will have to install a djvu plug in or something... (I just realized that the butterfly is the logo for EXELVISION and they replaced the turtle with the butterfly.) To play the djvu format, you need to install a DjVu player that can be easily found on the net. Indeed the Turtle is not a turtle but a butterfly a nod to the company "s logo JL 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
humeur Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 4 hours ago, Golden Child said: I think debugging in logo isn't easy. I was baffled for days before I realized that PR in TI Logo isn't a shortcut for PRINT (like in other logos) but PenReverse like xdrawing. I always used PRINT to figure out where things go awry, and using PR made things not work at all! It's like the basic between each machine often there are differences in better or worse for each of us. JL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 6 hours ago, humeur said: To play the djvu format, you need to install a DjVu player that can be easily found on the net. the viewer program on linux, djview4 wouldn't display it, but I could run djvudump on manuel-logo.djvu and using the output make a script with: djvudump manuel-exelogo.djvu | awk -c '{print "sleep 10\n" "wget http://dcexel.free.fr/documentation/manuel-exelogo/"$3}' Once I downloaded them all, djview4 worked and was able to convert to PDF. I uploaded the PDF version to archive, it's a very good manual, answering a lot of questions about how each command works. https://archive.org/details/exelogo_manual/mode/2up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 6 hours ago, humeur said: It's like the basic between each machine often there are differences in better or worse for each of us. Vive la difference! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mizapf Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 Do we have a German manual for the German TI Logo 2? I've never cared about Logo, and after having a look in Wikipedia, this is really funny - every language seems to have its own command set. In particular, the Turtle is named Igel in German (like "ee-gal"), which is actually a hedgehog. In fact, turtle translates to Schildkröte (lit. "shield toad"), so they obviously picked another animal with a shorter name. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted November 21, 2022 Share Posted November 21, 2022 I think I have a photocopy of the work-in-progress manual for the German version of Logo 1.1 somewhere in my files. I'll see if I can dig it up. . .note that it is for standard TI Logo, not Logo II though. I don't think I have ever seen anything but the GRAM files for the German version of Logo II (I do have a physical cartridge of the German Logo 1.1 cartridge). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 22, 2022 Share Posted November 22, 2022 Fiddling with German Ti Logo, .HILFE = .HELP and lists pretty much all of the commands It took me forever to figure out that AN = TELL AN IGEL = TELL TURTLE AN FEE 1 = TELL SPRITE 1 Eventually, I realized that the keywords seem to be in the same order in the different versions so they should correspond 1:1 in the .HELP .HILFE .AIUTO order I think: 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 So if I run this code from the mame lua console: [MAME]> for i = 0,767 do io.write(string.char(emu.item(manager.machine.devices[":vdp"].items["1/0-3fff"]):read(i))) if i%32==31 then print() end end Then I can get a dump of the VDP screen as text. Running .HELP and .HILDE and screendumping it, then removing any extra text, then running a diff on it diff --side-by-side --width=44 tilogo_help.txt tilogo_hilfe.txt I can make a translation table: WELCOME TO TI LOGO! | WILLKOMMEN BEI TI L ?.HELP | ?.HILFE BACK | ZURUECK BK | Z BACKGROUND | HINTERGRUND BG | HG BEEP | TON BOTH | BEIDE BUTLAST | OHNELETZTES BL | OL BUTFIRST | OHNEERSTES BF | OE NOBEEP | KEINTON CALL | NENNE COLORBACKGROUND | HINTERGRUNDFARBE CB | HF PT | LK PUTTILE | LEGEKARTE CHARNUM | ZEICHENNUMMER CN | ZN COLOR | FARBE ; ; CONTENTS | NAMEN CONTINUE | WEITER CLEARSCREEN | LOESCHEBILD CS | LB DEBUG | VERBESSERE DEFINE | LERNE DE | LE DIFFERENCE | DIFFERENZ - - EACH | JEDES EDIT EDIT EITHER | EINES ELSE | SONST END | ENDE IS | GLEICH = = FIRST | ERSTES F | E FORWARD | VORWAERTS FD | V FPUT | MACHZUERST FREEZE | HALT GO | SPRINGE BYE | ADE GREATER | GROESSER > > HEADING | KURS WHERE | IGELSTAND HIDETURTLE | VERSTECKIGEL HT | VI HOME | MITTE IF | WENN IFF | WENNF IFT | WENNW JOY | FERNBEDIENUNG ERASE | TILGE LAST | LETZTES LESS | KLEINER < < LOOKLIKE | GESTALT CARRY | TRAGE ( ( LPUT | MACHZULETZT LEFT | LINKS LT | L MAKE | SETZE MAKESHAPE | BILDEFORM MS | BF MAKECHAR | BILDEZEICHEN MC | BZ YOURNUMBER | FEENUMMER YN | FN NOT | NICHT NUMBEROF | NUMMER NUMBER? | NUMMER? NOTURTLE | IGELAUS OUTPUT | RUECKGABE OP | RG PENDOWN | STIFTAB PD | SA PENERASE | RADIERE PE | RA PENREVERSE | UMKEHRSTIFT PR | US PENUP | STIFTHOCH PU | SH PO | GIB PA | GA PN | GN PP | GT DOT | PUNKT TYPE | TIPPE PRINTCHAR | DRUCKZEI PC | DZ PRINT | DRUCK PRODUCT | PRODUKT * * WORD? | WORT? QUOTIENT QUOTIENT / / RC? | TASTE? READCHAR | LIESTASTE RC | LT READLINE | EINGABE RL | EG REPEAT | WIEDERHOLE ) ) RANDOM | WUERFEL RECALL | LIES RUN | ERG RIGHT | RECHTS RT | R SAVE | SCHREIB SENTENCE | SATZ SE | SZ SETCOLOR | SETZFARBE SC | SF SETHEADING | SETZKURS SH | SK SETSPEED | SETZTEMPO SS | ST SV | STXY SX SX SY SY SHAPE | FORM SHOWTURTLE | ZEIGIGEL ST | ZI SPEED | TEMPO SPRITE | FEE STOP | RUECKKEHR SXV | STX SYV | STY SXY SXY SUM | SUMME + + TELL | AN TEST | TESTE TEXT | PRLISTE THAW | STARTE THEN | DANN THING | DING TILE | KARTE THING? THING? TO | PR TURTLE | IGEL TRACEBACK | PROTOKOLL TB | PK WAIT | WARTE WHO | WER WORD | WORT XCOR | XKOR YCOR | YKOR XVEL | TX YVEL | TY SETVOICE | SETZTON SETVOLUME | SETZLAUT SETTEMPO | SETZTONTEMPO STACCATO STACCATO LEGATO LEGATO CHROMATIC | CHROMATISCH MAJOR | DUR NOTE NOTE MUSIC | MUSIK DRUM | TROMMEL REST | PAUSE PLAYMUSIC | SPIELMUSIK PM | SM LOOPMUSIC | WIEDERHOLEMUSIC PLAYNOTE | SPIELNOTE BIG | GROSS SMALL | KLEIN SIZE | GROESSE REVERSE | VERTAUSCHE ROTATE | VERDREHE LENGTH | LAENGE TRUE | RICHTIG FALSE | FALSCH .HELP | .HILFE .GC | .RS .NODES | .FREI PRINTOUT | AUFLISTEN ?_ | ? 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golden Child Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 (edited) To see if I could find something interesting on Logo in German, I searched google on "VERSTECKIGEL". There's a bunch of links, the ones I found most interesting were a manual for a Genius TableTop Black Magic CX learning laptop that has a Logo language built-in. Even though it isn't specifically for TI logo, it does offer some clues as to the naming of commands: PR is short for PROZEDUR Turns out that vtech made a lot of learning laptops with Logo. https://randoc.wordpress.com/2020/08/05/vtech-logo-computers/ And a TI Magazine that has a "translation" Logo program. http://bromosel.99er.net/download/tirevue-scans/tirevue_02-1986.pdf "Der Igel Lernt Deutsch" And a translation matrix for various versions of logo (not TI though): https://archive.org/details/Happy.Computer.N16.1985.02-KCz/page/n129/mode/2up Edited November 23, 2022 by Golden Child 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+mizapf Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 3 hours ago, Golden Child said: And a TI Magazine that has a "translation" Logo program. http://bromosel.99er.net/download/tirevue-scans/tirevue_02-1986.pdf "Der Igel Lernt Deutsch" This is actually a tutorial text how to build a German command set using DEFINE on the English TI Logo 2. I suppose the German TI Logo 2 was officially released by TI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Ksarul Posted November 23, 2022 Share Posted November 23, 2022 5 hours ago, mizapf said: This is actually a tutorial text how to build a German command set using DEFINE on the English TI Logo 2. I suppose the German TI Logo 2 was officially released by TI. @mizapf, I don't think it was actually released, although it was in the last phase of development at the time TI pulled out of the market. The German Logo 1.1 cartridge never made it past the prototype stage. The GRAM files for Logo II in German exist, but I have never seen either the manual or a physical cartridge for it. I wonder if Dr. Arnim Toelke is still around, as he noted having a draft of the German Logo III manual in the TI Revue article. . .which I suspect was actually for Logo II. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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