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It’s a miracle the nes sold like hot cakes


johannesmutlu

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1 hour ago, Pat Brady said:

Uh, at the risk of you thinking I have a severe case of Dunning Kruger ;), and of drawing the ire of numerous other posters, I do think the NES is somewhat better overall. Graphically, the 7800 can do a few things the NES can't, but each particular 7800 mode comes with its own drawbacks and IMO none of them provide as good of a balance as the NES.

Yeah, I'm still going to submit that's your preference, rather than some objective truth. 256 vertical resolution is indeed a good middle-ground mode, but 32-character display isn't ideal for text heavy games. Ever get sick of pressing A over and over again during NES character dialogue? There's something to be said about being able to section the screen into 160 and 320 modes.

 

1 hour ago, Pat Brady said:

The 7800 and the NES have the same CPU, but the NES has more effective processing power, because its graphics chip doesn't shut the CPU down ~half of the time. The NES obviously has way better built-in sound.

I guess we're doing the full comparison, then. Ok, lets carry on the VS thread.🙄

 

You seem to have overlooked that sprites on the NES are limited to 8x8 or 8x16 pixels, and putting any more than 8 sprites on a given scanline will result in flicker. I'll take the better sprites with loss of cpu time to dma any day, because I can always be clever with my cpu usage elsewhere. You can't clever more hardware sprites out of the NES.

 

It's also a shame that the NES doesn't have an audio-pin on the cart connector. It would be pretty cool if it could have a cart with FM synthesis, or a custom diy sound chip, like you can on the 7800.

 

You know, it's almost like we're talking about different machines, with different strengths.

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43 minutes ago, RevEng said:

Yeah, I'm still going to submit that's your preference, rather than some objective truth.

 

Yes, it's absolutely preference, not objective truth. The same could be said to all the people who have expressed the opposite opinion. Actually it feels a bit taboo to acknowledge any advantage of the NES here on the 7800 forum (except for audio, where the predominant attitude seems to be that we should forget TIA and just slap a POKEY on everything). So maybe I'm playing devil's advocate a bit. But I do genuinely like the 256 resolution, compared to 160's chunkiness or 320's litany of restrictions and caveats.

 

Of course you're right that sprite capacity is one of the 7800's advantages. But I've read the list of 7800's advantages so many times, I didn't feel the need to re-enumerate them. The 7800's practical CPU disadvantage, OTOH, is rarely if ever mentioned.

 

I will say: once your library gets to a certain size, a lot of NES games start to look somewhat uniform. Developers had to be creative to avoid the 16x16 tiles look. At a high level I think that's the 7800's biggest advantage.

 

43 minutes ago, RevEng said:

It's a shame the NES doesn't have an audio-pin on the cart connector. It would be pretty cool if it could have a cart with FM synthesis, or a custom tracker+sound chip.

 

Agree. The Famicom did have an audio pin, but Nintendo removed it for the NES. As much as I like 2A03 sound, it would be fun to hear some of the more exotic alternatives.

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20 minutes ago, Pat Brady said:

 

Yes, it's absolutely preference, not objective truth. The same could be said to all the people who have expressed the opposite opinion. Actually it feels a bit taboo to acknowledge any advantage of the NES here on the 7800 forum (except for audio, where the predominant attitude seems to be that we should forget TIA and just slap a POKEY on everything). So maybe I'm playing devil's advocate a bit. But I do genuinely like the 256 resolution, compared to 160's chunkiness or 320's litany of restrictions and caveats.

Ok, then we're on the same page. FWIW acknowledging NES advantages hasn't been taboo for me. I could dig up more, but I can't stomach going down memory lane through all of the VS threads.

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12 hours ago, Silver Back said:

Well the NES vs 7800 really isn't a thing anymore. And honestly in the mind of the masses the NES is fondly remembered, the 7800 is not. To some of us that has been the unfortunate truth for as long as we can remember and it creates defensive feelings for some.

 

I can only speak for my corner of the world, but I literally never saw a 7800 for sale at retail when they were new, and I have not seen one at a used game shop or thrift shop subsequently. If the 7800 was sold in Canada, it only received very limited, regional distribution. Consequently, I have no nostalgia for it and, frankly, no memories whatsoever.

 

In contrast, the NES was ubiquitous. They were everywhere. Of course I was in High School/University when this happened, so I did not want one at the time. I have no especially find memories of this system either. (I still do not own an original NES console.)

 

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2 hours ago, jhd said:

 

I can only speak for my corner of the world, but I literally never saw a 7800 for sale at retail when they were new, and I have not seen one at a used game shop or thrift shop subsequently. If the 7800 was sold in Canada, it only received very limited, regional distribution. Consequently, I have no nostalgia for it and, frankly, no memories whatsoever.

 

In contrast, the NES was ubiquitous. They were everywhere. Of course I was in High School/University when this happened, so I did not want one at the time. I have no especially find memories of this system either. (I still do not own an original NES console.)

 

I know nothing about Canada but it was mostly the same in the Midwestern United States. I do remember 7800 and 2600 game tickets at Toys R Us but I don't remember if they had consoles or not. I would imagine so.  And those tickets disappeared from my local Toys R Us before the end of the 80s where NES was carried for years after that. 

 

I was the only kid in my whole school it seemed who had a 7800. We also got an NES a couple years later but anytime I spoke of Atari the other school kids either had no clue or thought I was talking about the 2600.  Play and enjoy whatever you want and feel free to discuss and compare, but there was no competition back in the day.  And I don't think anybody would be crazy enough to argue that. NES dominated in my area and it seems most people remember it the same. 

 

Atari did a miserable job advertising and supporting the 7800, but it was and still is a very capable system, and that's why we've seen a homebrew boom lately.  The amount of games released this year is huge for the 7800 and I'm having fun exploring them. 

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3 hours ago, Muddyfunster said:

No, it really doesn't. 

That’s mostly because you mostly get shades of red and green ( at least on my TV)

 

But then again, no it doesn’t get better. Honestly I don’t know why I said that. If you need more color just use 160 mode. And most of you probably have an rgb / s video mod anyway.

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On 11/27/2022 at 9:30 PM, Pat Brady said:

Agree. The Famicom did have an audio pin, but Nintendo removed it for the NES. As much as I like 2A03 sound, it would be fun to hear some of the more exotic alternatives.

Just makes the 7800 better!!!! ;)

 

13 hours ago, Silver Back said:

I know nothing about Canada but it was mostly the same in the Midwestern United States. I do remember 7800 and 2600 game tickets at Toys R Us but I don't remember if they had consoles or not. I would imagine so.  And those tickets disappeared from my local Toys R Us before the end of the 80s where NES was carried for years after that. 

 

I was the only kid in my whole school it seemed who had a 7800. We also got an NES a couple years later but anytime I spoke of Atari the other school kids either had no clue or thought I was talking about the 2600.  Play and enjoy whatever you want and feel free to discuss and compare, but there was no competition back in the day.  And I don't think anybody would be crazy enough to argue that. NES dominated in my area and it seems most people remember it the same. 

 

Atari did a miserable job advertising and supporting the 7800, but it was and still is a very capable system, and that's why we've seen a homebrew boom lately.  The amount of games released this year is huge for the 7800 and I'm having fun exploring them. 

Atari wasn't really a thing in Canada if I'm not wrong, and the 7800 sold best in the UK if I'm still not wrong.

On 11/27/2022 at 7:53 PM, Defender_2600 said:

Yeah, different machines, with different strengths.

 

Anyway, I'm enjoying 7800 Zelda 4bpp graphics. :)

 

 

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One small problem... if you want a non-scrolling playfeild in 160B, you can only really have 3 sprites per line. =/ MAYBE 4 if you are lucky. However if you go with a non full screen approach (32*12 tiles, each tile = 4*16 pixels or 4*8 pixels) then you can get more like 8 at least 8 pixel wide sprites. This is where using direct mode and a buffer REALLY HELPS as direct mode sprites take less dma than indirect (character) mode sprites do.

 

On 11/27/2022 at 7:10 PM, RevEng said:

You know, it's almost like we're talking about different machines, with different strengths.

No. 7800 has almost ALL of the abilities of the NES, even at stock! Heck, it outpreforms it in many ways doing the same things on both.

 

Text mode: 40*24 on Atari 7800, 32*28 on nintendo (Heck, you can even get 80 columns by using 320C or 320B and 1 byte wide chars!!!)

 

Sprites: NES has 64 up to 8*16 sprites, 7800 has over 200 up to 512*16 sprites.

 

Sound: I'm pretty sure the NES is supperior in this catagory if my ears are screwed on right.

 

External audio: Except when the 7800 gets this, making it better!

 

RAM: Still 7800. Since the characters are in normal RAM (No VRAM) the 7800 gets all 4K for itself. Plus, the character map can be much smaller, allowing more RAM free. (A character map takes as little as 240 bytes on 7800 while it takes as much as 2K on NES)

 

Cart size/ flexibility: 7800 again. It can get up to 58K using all of $3000-$3FFF AND $600-$17FF. <-- pretty sure this isn't being used for anything, minus the $3000-$3FFF area by the HSC. Plus, the 7800 can have much more graphics in even the stock 48K system (It can use almost ALL the entire space for gfx, but why do that. Really, it's only practical for 16K or 28K (Using $4000-$6FFF for tile gfx and $8000-$8FFF, $A000-$AFFF, $C000-$CFFF, and $E000-$EFFF for sprites) of gfx, but that's HUGE compared to the NES's measly 8K.)

 

Mappers: Unless you have the MMC5, the 7800 takes it again! Because you can just use Bankset + Super to beat the MMC3. Heck, the 7800 can get as much as 4 megabytes with 16KB of RAM and a POKEY AND Covox for voice samples!!!! The largest NES game was Kirby's adventure which was 768 KB and had no extra sound capabilities (Because the NES couldn't :D)

 

DA HARDWARE: 7800, duh! It's got 4bpp too. 

 

Vs SMS: I think the 7800 takes it against the SMS too. 4bpp won't save this Almost-NES. Heck, minus the graphics it's inferior and has less tiles, and worse sound than the NES!

On 11/27/2022 at 6:52 PM, Cebus Capucinis said:

I see the 7800 and the Jaguar have something in common (if you get it, you get it). HINT: "Numberwang."

The thing is: THAT THEY BEAT THE COMPETITION AND HAVE A GREAT HOMEBREW SCENE!!!!!! (Ok, maybe not the second one, but the first one is a very yes!)

On 4/25/2022 at 6:05 AM, GoldenWheels said:

I feel the pain. My parents got me an Atari XE instead of a NES for Xmas in I think 88 or 89. I got Bug Hunt and FSII instead of SMB. I also tried to not to be a spoiled, jerky kid about it.

 

It was hard.

I feel you. And getting an XE over a NES??? Comeon. That's like getting a toy dog when all you wanted was a real dog.

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1 hour ago, Ecernosoft said:

One small problem... if you want a non-scrolling playfeild in 160B, you can only really have 3 sprites per line. =/ MAYBE 4 if you are lucky. However if you go with a non full screen approach (32*12 tiles, each tile = 4*16 pixels or 4*8 pixels) then you can get more like 8 at least 8 pixel wide sprites. This is where using direct mode and a buffer REALLY HELPS as direct mode sprites take less dma than indirect (character) mode sprites do.

 

Given that this type of game usually uses few sprites on the screen, I have already specified before that my idea was to use a 128 *192 resolution for the playing field, in order to save some cycles for other sprites, if necessary.

 

With the extraordinary result obtained with the 7800 4bpp graphics, I do not consider it a big compromise to reduce the horizontal resolution from 160 to 128 pixels, in fact if we consider the PAL aspect ratio (in the 160 mode) we will cover exactly the surface that would occupy 256 square pixels , which was the horizontal resolution of many arcade games, such as Double Dragon for example.

 

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On 11/27/2022 at 4:31 AM, Defender_2600 said:

 

Really an old story, this time I'll stop and answer.

 

It appears that you are attributing the game's excellent and innovative gameplay to the hardware architecture of the NES. In truth, the game cannot run under NES stock, SMB3 (3 megabit cartridge) uses Nintendo's custom MMC3 for animated tiles, extra RAM, diagonal scrolling, etc. But above all, the game's total development and marketing budget was $25.8 million ($59 million adjusted for inflation) and the team consisted of more than ten people who took over two years to complete the game.

 

Now, if anyone wants to offer the same budget here, to a team with the best 7800 developers, I am sure we can overcome the NES SMB3 graphics, with its fairly basic look, with its few colors and few and little sprites, with that little palette... and then we can show, once again, the muscles of a stock 7800. With that budget we can also make the 7800 port of Zelda but, forget the NES graphics, the 7800 version would have 4bpp graphics and a SNES look . Cough. :)

 

 

1373102449_Atari7800TheLegendofZelda.thumb.PNG.3da95941d8a07db8f18550629d0e5a48.PNG

 

 

7800 and NES are different machines, each with their own strengths, however it would be interesting to reverse the requests and finally see a port from 7800 to NES, something with lots of big colorful sprites, 4bpp graphics with 12 colors per sprites / tile, tiles with no size restrictions.... Seriously, a stock 7800 can display graphics that a NES + MMC5 can't (and you would still be stuck at 4 colors per tile anyway).

 

 

Now, before more people jump in here and reopen the "your SNES 4bpp graphics can't run on the 7800" thread...

 

I'm pleased to announce that I just received an unexpected PM and all that graphics are already running on real 7800 hardware. I can't add anything else for the moment but I'm happy to thank the person who gave me this welcome surprise!

 

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27 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

Given that this type of game usually uses few sprites on the screen, I have already specified before that my idea was to use a 128 *192 resolution for the playing field, in order to save some cycles for other sprites, if necessary.

 

I actually overlooked this, even though you stated it clearly. Let's see, 10+9*128/2/2 = 298 MARIA cycles for the background, leaving enough time for several sprites per zone (exact number depends on their widths and modes, but I think you could do, for example, an 8-pixel 160B player, 4 8-pixel 160A enemies, and 3 4-pixel 160A projectiles). Anyway I am now convinced that this is indeed viable for a real game.

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20 minutes ago, Pat Brady said:

 

I actually overlooked this, even though you stated it clearly. Let's see, 10+9*128/2/2 = 298 MARIA cycles for the background, leaving enough time for several sprites per zone (exact number depends on their widths and modes, but I think you could do, for example, an 8-pixel 160B player, 4 8-pixel 160A enemies, and 3 4-pixel 160A projectiles). Anyway I am now convinced that this is indeed viable for a real game.

 

It is still possible to use the sprites as tiles and only include the floor where the sprites are not placed, so without any overlapping sprites (as does the NES with Gauntlet which only uses tiles as sprites). Obviously the result would be worse but technically possible.

 

 

 

Edited by Defender_2600
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11 hours ago, RevEng said:

Please. Just. Stop. For your own sake.

 

ok. I'll try to stop posting on this thread (before I get banned again =( )

 

9 hours ago, Pat Brady said:

 

I actually overlooked this, even though you stated it clearly. Let's see, 10+9*128/2/2 = 298 MARIA cycles for the background, leaving enough time for several sprites per zone (exact number depends on their widths and modes, but I think you could do, for example, an 8-pixel 160B player, 4 8-pixel 160A enemies, and 3 4-pixel 160A projectiles). Anyway I am now convinced that this is indeed viable for a real game.

Well.... that's just because that's the same cycle count for a 32 column 2 byte wide background.

 

10 hours ago, TwentySixHundred said:

Sometimes it's best to just listen, learn and ask questions. Arrogance just hinders the ability to improve ones skills and progress.

 

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You are right....... sorry.

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TIA sound being used as stock, due to Maria die restrictions, wasn't the worst plan. Bear in mind that the original plan was supposed to be an in-cart Minnie chip supplemented by TIA, with TIA providing the SFX and Minnie bringing per-game customisable proto-wavetable music. (for under $2 per cart) When Atari changed hands that plan was scrapped, for typical Tramiel reason$.

 

Even as the situation stands, TIA is a lot more capable for music than people give it credit for, especially when driven by a system with more than 128 bytes of ram, and more than 4k of addressable rom. You just need the smallest bit of music theory, an understanding of where the issues are, and willingness to work around them. Unfortunately, BITD frequently the person doing TIA game music wasn't a musician, and didn't have sufficient aptitude or caring. Contrast that with NES music being done by staff composers.

 

TBH I think I'd rate the ergonomics of the proline joysticks as the more problematic issue, compared to TIA sound. And sound would be a total non-issue if Atari had actually followed through on the original Minnie plan.

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