It’s a magic that the dreamcast failed

[Rhomaios]

On 5/2/2022 at 4:10 PM, roots.genoa said:

If you didn't play Power Stone, go back under your bridge. ?

I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who didn't love Power Stone. It was all right, but 3D fighters in general never appealed to me.

[roots.genoa]

31 minutes ago, Rhomaios said:

I sometimes feel like I'm the only one who didn't love Power Stone. It was all right, but 3D fighters in general never appealed to me.

That's perfectly fine. The guy I was replying to was just starting to get rude, and it got (far) worse afterwards. But I'm glad I (unwillingly) exposed a sock puppet on this forum.

[youxia]

All I got is this

 

 

[johannesmutlu]

Oh yeah i forget to mention that for those people who are convinced that the PS2 became a huge success because of it’s builtin DVD playback feature,that fact that people didn’t bought a dreamcast because of lacking dvd playback support,despite sega delivered enough dreamcast systems while sony just couldn’t keep up with the demand for their PS2,but people just waited untill they could get their hands on their ps2,

 

BUT then 1 year later panasonic did came with their nintendo licensed panasonic q (a hybrid gamecube dvd player in 1 system)

it costed $375 so it was only $76? More expensive then the ps2 wich costed $299,BUT despite that people just considered the panasonic q just too expensive,and while the gamecube only costed $200 thus being $99 cheaper then the ps2,BUT not many people bought the gamecube either all because of lacking DVD playback,so or a console was just slightly too expensive or it was cheap but lacked an essential feature for gamers,it just wouldn’t sold well,so it proves that even if sega would,ve come up with a revision of a dreamcast with builtin dvd playback feature ,it probably would have made the dreamcast just too expensive,thus nintendo just had the bad luck,also both the gamecube and panasonic q did came 1 year too late on the market,had both systems been released in 2000 albeit with lack of many launch games ,they may could,ve had a better chance against sony’s ps2 system,but maybe gamers would,ve still complain about the higher price of the panasonic q or the lack of dvd playback on the cheaper gamecube,we will probably never know☹️

[Monk]

I don't get all that Dreamcast hate, especially the controllers. How can anyone list 'great Dreamcast games' without even mentioning SOUL CALIBUR?!

 

Dreamcast has the BEST tennis game ever, the BEST fighting game ever, and it has some quirky, interesting games that modern games only try to mimic - I'd take Powerstone 1 and 2 ANY time over any 'Super Smash Bros.' crap.

 

What exactly is WRONG with the controllers, by the way? People say they're 'trash', but they never explain why they think that. Because everyone else thinks that?

 

To me, they're perfect, and much better than many modern controllers - have you ever tried playing that boxing game with a modern controller, where the small-range, unresponsive triggers are mapped on _ONE_ axis?!

 

You have to push BOTH triggers down in that game to activate the boost mode or whatever, but whoops, modern controllers don't ALLOW that, because they only work on one axis, so you can EITHER press the left trigger OR press the right one, never both!

 

Dreamcast is advanced enough to allow you to press BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY. So the controller is BETTER than modern controllers at least in that way.

 

As someone mentioned, the triggers have more range, so subtle movement is more possible - playing a car game of some sorts is great on Dreamcast exactly because of this.

 

Also, why would you WANT to map 'gas pedal' and 'break' to anything NON-ANALOG? Are you some kind of digital dos game driver that can't handle analog controls?

 

To add, Dreamcast controllers' analog control is subtle and ranged enough to ACTUALLY work very well in situations where the crappy PS2, XBox 360 or other more modern controllers just feel like 'almost digital' due to their tiny range and non-maneuverability.

 

People have REALLY weird complaints here, I don't even understand the point about some third-party stick stuff, what does that have to do with anything?

 

Maybe poeple here have tiny hands or something, but Dreamcast controller is the perfect size for my hands anyway, and I see absolutely no problem with it. The VMU units are also incredible, as you can even use them as tiny handhelds and play tetris outside in some nice park on them. Sure, the display is tiny and monochrome, but it's still an amazing and charming feature for a dang MEMORY CARD, how many other game systems have that? How innovative is THAT?

 

Also, the 'modular nature' of the ports is also incredibly well designed, even if it's not utilized to its full potential. I love that you can put a rumble unit AND memorycard in the same gamepad, and you can decide which gamepad has that and which doesn't, and switch MMUs easily around and so on.

 

I don't see any downside to that controller, to me it's perfect, and any time I have emulated Dreamcast and used some inferior controller (which is all of them), I have missed the wonderful Dreamcast controller, it has a great feel, perfect accuracy, amazing analog system and separate triggers. Why would anyone want anything more or different?

 

The cable going the wrong way? You must be kidding me! First of all, you can PUT the cable to go the 'right way' if you wish, because the controller supports that (look down there, there's a place where the cable clips on nicely), and second of all, what kind of complaint is THAT? What does it matter where the cable goes, you're not going to be thinking about the cable when you are playing, are you?

 

PS2 does have great games for it, the Tekken games, Gran Turismo games, err... well, I am sure there are more. But considering how many AMAZING games Dreamcast has, I would definitely rather take Dreamcast than PS2, what's wrong with people?

 

PS2 is a soulless machine, like a PC - lots of corporations just churned the gloomy, dark, 'cool' but depressing, soulless crap to it  and people, like unthinking drones that they are, chose to purchase that crap instead of the imaginative, colorful, energetic Dreamcast games that have much better playability, too.

 

PS2 is like PC of consoles, lots of power and handy features (anyone that bough it because it had a DVD player doesn't deserve to own ANY game consoles), but it's a dark, gloomy, soulless machine that will never give you the delight Dreamcast is capable of.

 

Sega Dreamcast is like Amiga of consoles - less raw power, but born out of genius, vision and full of innovation and user-friendliness.

 

Dreamcast games are amazing, Soul Calibur, Virtua Tennis, Tony Hawk's skating game, Powerstone games, I mean.. PS2 has nothing comparable that you can just pick up and play.

 

Of course nowadays PS2 emulates so well, there's no point in getting the real machine with its 50Hz in PAL and lower resolution (hard to get 60 fps out of a real machine in the PAL-land).

 

But a real Dreamcast is the only thing where you can still press both triggers simultaneously... for that alone, it's worth having.

 

That's also a good reason to choose Dreamcast over PS2 - you can emulate PS2 perfectly, but you can't emulate Dreamcast perfectly, because you won't get the smooth 2D scroll on emulator, and you can't press both triggers on an emulator, and you won't get the slightly quirky, but wonderful, unique, beautifully shaped, NON-BLACK (why does everything have to be black?) controller magic anywhere but with the real machine.

 

I don't get this Dreamcast-hatred, hasn't the underdog been kicked enough, just like the Amiga was? Oh yeah, this is ATARI forum, now it makes sense...

[+Cafeman]

4 hours ago, Monk said:

What exactly is WRONG with the controllers, by the way? People say they're 'trash', but they never explain why they think that. Because everyone else thinks that?

I love Dreamcast, and I still play it regularly when I can. Certainly there is nothing to hate about Dreamcast  IMO.   But I'll comment on your confusion over the controller hate.   It is fine for most games, but we were used to 6 buttons and a comfortable Saturn dpad.. DC dpad is tiny and I find it difficult to be accurate using in fighting games, or stuff like Super Magnetic Neo.  Something about the controller has tired out my hands more quickly than other controllers too, pulling back the spring loaded triggers maybe?  

 

I wish I had bought several of the Capcom FT pads BITD.   

 

Also note that I think the GCN dpad is even worse, by way of comparison. I didnt like the OG Playstation dpad either, it felt more like pressing directional buttons  than pressing a cohesive dpad structure.  

[Zap1982]

Got my Dreamcast here in the UK at launch, no regrets at all then but obviously saddened when they stopped production. I moved onto the Xbox and Gamecube at that point but still played the DC and still go back occasionally to it along with everything else! The Dreamcast was an excellent system and had some great games. True, it had flaws and some things that I will never understand the attraction over (think anything to do with the VMU) but IMO it was much more fun at launch than the PS2 which for me is possibly the most overrated console ever made. Note, I am not saying it is bad or has bad games - just to me it isn;t anything more ground breaking than anything else. The DVD player was indeed good at increasing the sales as was a blu-ray in the PS3 as I know a few people who literally bought both just for that. But I do feel Sony rode the high tides of their excellent original Playstation system. Sony, for many of us entered the gaming market out of the blue at a time when Sega had started to develop a very strange self destructive culture with Sega USA and JP trying to one-up each other all the time and Nintendo were just sort of plodding along. Sony quickly established themselves with a great machine, great games and I am very sure many hopped on board the PS2 just because of that reputation. I don't believe the PS2 ever brought to the table what the original Playstation did.

 

Sega?

In the UK, I certainly think the whole lack of brand loyalty / consumer non-confidence with Sega was a large factor in Sega's downfall. We have to also remember this was pre-mainstream internet times. Hell, many people still didn't own a "home computer" at this point. The high street was everything! I never knew anyone else with a Dreamcast, and I think a big problem was it was the same story for the illusive Sega Saturn. The Saturn at least by me was removed from shelves super early on along with anything Mega CD / 32X with the Megadrive games being relegated to the very back of store shelves or in "clearance" baskets. Sega was very much abandoned or shunned by all the big retailers during the Saturn era. You wouldn't even have found a game in the wild because nobody seemed to have the console. Fast forward to the Dreamcast and Sega were pretty much a childhood memory of 1991 and Sonic the Hedgehog. They just had no presence or relevance anymore. When the DC launched, Sega did of course find their way to shelves but from memory it wasn't back to what it used to be, it was very "Wii-U" style in the sense you would have two or three bays in an aisle of the competition and just one bay of Dreamcast or just the bottom shelf. The bad relations with some store chains never recovered and they simply didn't stock Sega stuff. 

[LynxJagLunatic]

Sega I think like Atari just burnt too many bridges with consumers. As much as I love the Saturn I feel it sealed the Dreamcasts fate. I remember a few of my friends being Insane Genesis fans and buying a Saturn only to sell it or trade it for a PlayStation. The PS2 hype was insane and I believe won on backwards compatibility and having a DVD player built in. The Dreamcast was not going to compete with that.

[Mittens0407]

On 5/13/2022 at 1:04 AM, Monk said:

I don't get all that Dreamcast hate, especially the controllers. How can anyone list 'great Dreamcast games' without even mentioning SOUL CALIBUR?!

I don't understand why the Dreamcast d-pad gets so much hate when the Gamecube controllers d-pad exists. Come to think of it, I think 6th gen was just a bad time for d-pads. Dreamcast's is floaty and creaky. PS2's is... the same as the PS1 pad (I never really liked it). Gamecube has the GBA d-pad but if it had arthritis and the Duke's pad looks like it was left in the oven too long. Or not long enough, I'm not sure.

[eightbit]

I loved the DC controller. Still do. I still feel it is one of the more comfortable controllers to use for me. And the d-pad never gave me any issues at all.

[Creamhoven]

Hello Johannes,

 

I can understand your frustration. With the dreamcast the romantic era of gaming started and ended. It was a short ride, but it was a triumphant one. Even though the dreamcast was not a commercial success, it is far superior than anything that came out since.

 

Even though it is painful, we have to live with the fact that supreme and elegant gaming hasnt won the race. It does not help that we are now living through the dark ages of gaming, a grotesque post modern monstrum that is against nature itself. But i believe strongly that better times will come with a console that surpases even the greatness of the dreamcast. Tokyo Xtreme Racer II, Jet Set Radio, REZ... please come back!

Edited February 26, 2023 by Creamhoven

[Jim Crawford55]

Dreamcast, what an amazing system that was. If I were to rank the best consoles of the 2000s. 

 

1. Xbox 360 

2. PS2 

3. Dreamcast 

 

Amazing for it's time and the games still hold up as well like Shenmue 1-2, sonic Adventure games, Jet Set Radio, Crazy Taxi, Headhunter, Skies Of Arcadia, Virtua Tennis etc 

[johannesmutlu]

Did you knw?

Sega predated nintendo in by 3 years by coming with their link cable to enable you to connect a handheld (in this case) SNK’s neogeopocket/color to their dreamcast in co’operation with SNK back in 1999 while nintendo allowed you to link their gameboyadvance to their gamecube in 2002,so shout out to sega for beating nintendo with it 3 years earlier and so again nintendo turns out to be not so innovative as i did tout for over 2 decades 🤣

it’s another reason for wich i think that it is amezing that sega couldn’t hold a candle against sony and nintendo during the 128bit wars,

HOWEVER i do own a gamecube along with a gameboyplayer and a few nintendo games for it etc,,,

For almost 2 decades,but am not an anti nintendo guy no i will alway’s love their old systems and the switch is something considerable to me under 1 condition, if nintendo and bam entertainment will both together release all official nintendo arcade games including popeye to the switch eshop,aslong they don’t i won’t,so come on nintendo make up your mind and just do it,BUT i can’t denie that the sega dreamcast and neogeo pocket is on my wish list as well because those are indeed cool systems wich deserves waaay more attention then that they did🥲

[roots.genoa]

You know very well Nintendo can't rerelease Popeye because of the license, so considering it a condition to buy a Switch is just an excuse to avoid buying one imho.

[johannesmutlu]

5 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

You know very well Nintendo can't rerelease Popeye because of the license, so considering it a condition to buy a Switch is just an excuse to avoid buying one imho.

Yes i know that popeye will require a license but how about tetris 99 on the switch because was the rights for tetris not already expired in 2019 or something like that?,

About the switch i actually never temted to buy a switch untill i heard about those many arcade games getting released on the eshop,

Also eventrough nintendo sells the switch as a hybrid game console,i just consider it as a handheld because that’s how it looks and feels to me.

[Austin]

*yawn*

[roots.genoa]

2 hours ago, johannesmutlu said:

Yes i know that popeye will require a license but how about tetris 99 on the switch because was the rights for tetris not already expired in 2019 or something like that?,

About the switch i actually never temted to buy a switch untill i heard about those many arcade games getting released on the eshop,

Also eventrough nintendo sells the switch as a hybrid game console,i just consider it as a handheld because that’s how it looks and feels to me.

Yes, but Tetris always sells a lot, so paying for the license is a no brainer. See, Hamster will precisely release a Mazinger Z arcade game in May, but it will cost the double because of the license:

https://www.timeextension.com/news/2023/04/mazinger-z-is-the-first-arcade-archives-game-to-fall-foul-of-licence-tax

 

And I'm not sure people would pay $15 for Popeye.

[johannesmutlu]

28 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

Yes, but Tetris always sells a lot, so paying for the license is a no brainer. See, Hamster will precisely release a Mazinger Z arcade game in May, but it will cost the double because of the license:

https://www.timeextension.com/news/2023/04/mazinger-z-is-the-first-arcade-archives-game-to-fall-foul-of-licence-tax

 

And I'm not sure people would pay $15 for Popeye.

WoooW now that’s really something interesting to mention,well yeah these day’s most gamers are casual gamers and so they will not want to pay $15 for popeye unlike die hardcore gamers who are willing to pay $15 for popeye,but sadly it’s not like the 80’s anymore when the main target was the hardcore audience,but since the target audience has slowly moved from die hardcore gamers to casual gamers and those audience gamers has overshadowed those die hardcore nintendo gamers,and since the amount of die hardcore nintendo gamers will decrease overtime,nintendo will probably no longer care about those audience hardcore gamers from the past,wich is pretty sad because that means that things will never be the same again,

i personally will alway’s like those old arcade games are they’re still challanging to this day,no matter how familiar you’re with it,

however platformers such as supermariobros 1,2,3 and world are no longer challanging for me anymore since i am sooo familiar with it,it’s like knowing my own pocket but theres also little randomness in those games,i can almost play those games with my eyes closed,theres just something kick ass about those old arcade games,hence why it is often called the golden era of arcade games,

now if nintendo is smart then they should come with their arcade classics mini with their games on it just to compeat again sega & atari,otherwise they will miss a huge oppertuny for it,they should produce enough for all those nintendo diehards to sweet their desire ,

same thing for a potential N64 classic mini,they will miss a huge oppertunity if they will never come up with,so let’s hope nintendo will make up their mind😁

[LynxJagLunatic]

For me the PS2 won out because it came with the built in DVD player and backwards compatible. I had a decent amount of ps1 games and could play them all. That alone sold me. I think had Sega gone that route Dreamcast may have faired better.

[johannesmutlu]

12 hours ago, LynxJagLunatic said:

For me the PS2 won out because it came with the built in DVD player and backwards compatible. I had a decent amount of ps1 games and could play them all. That alone sold me. I think had Sega gone that route Dreamcast may have faired better.

Yeah i hope so,what if sega added support for saturn games on their dreamcast along with dvd support,maybe it would,ve done well,,,aslong it didn’t become more expensive,would it ?

but interestingly enough sega tried to take advantage of the internet hype back in 1998 and at the time it really worked out but sadly for sega as the year 2000 rolled around,dvd because all the sudden a big hype and eventrough they bundled a few dreamcast with a cheap dvd player in the hopes to cetch in on the dvd craze,but it just couldn’t hold a candle against the ps2,

despite sega did everything right this time by shipping enough dreamcasts before christmas of 2000 because sony just couldn’t deliver enough ps2 systems,so sega tout they could take advantage of this and win,,,,but sadly for sega,nobody bought a dreamcast,instead they were just keep waiting for the ps2,i can’t denie that i feel bad for sega,then 4 years later in 2004 dvd players became very cheap and so it was no longer per se necessary to buy a ps2 as a cheap solution to own a dvd player,

now let’s hope that sega will make a new game console just like what atari did with their new vcs system,because it’s time ,also since there were so msny (false) rumors over the years about sega doing that,so it’s time to try it this time and turn those false rumors into something true,so let’s hope wait and see🤣

[Master Phruby]

The Dreamcast that plays Sega CD and Saturn games would have rocked. 

[82-T/A]

On 4/23/2022 at 6:55 PM, johannesmutlu said:

Sega did pretty much everything right with the dreamcast,

 

so how is this possible?

 

Sega is one of those that I never really could figure out.

 

Back in the 80s... almost no one I knew had a Master System. Everyone had a Nintendo. When I look at many of the games though... and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the Master System seemed like a much better system than the NES. Like, comparing Double Dragon on the Master System to that on an 8-bit NES... it felt more like the arcade version on the Master System. But still, I wanted an NES... and all the games I wanted, were on the NES.

 

When the Sega Genesis came out. I knew a couple more people who had them, but still... almost everyone I knew wanted the Super Nintendo. It seemed like when you bought a Nintendo... you were buying into more than just a console. You got a good pack-in game that had some lineage. I don't even know what the packin' game was with the Genesis... Golden Axe? I mean, I loved Golden Axe, don't get me wrong... but everyone wanted a SNES.

 

I don't know much after that because I didn't really play games after that. But when I was still in high school, a couple of friends had a Playstation, and one person had an Atari Jaguar.

 

When the Saturn and Dreamcast came out... I don't think I even noticed... much less did I notice the Playstation 2, 3, or whatever version is out now. They all just felt like whatever.

 

But I have a Saturn and a Dreamcast now, and I literally gave away my boxed / brand new Playstation that I had from the 2000s.

 

 

I think it's a shame, because as an older individual looking back on these systems, both the Saturn and Dreamcast seemed to have some really cool games. I have to figure that where Sega lost... was the marketing. I just remember someone screaming "SEGA!!!!" and then later, the Sega swirl noise. But other than that, I don't remember much. Nintendo had much better marketing... and I think with kids, kids want what their friends have. It's a bit deeper than that of course. I just wanted the games that I'd heard about from my friends...

 

 

 

[OldSchoolRetroGamer]

37 minutes ago, 82-T/A said:

 

Sega is one of those that I never really could figure out.

 

Back in the 80s... almost no one I knew had a Master System. Everyone had a Nintendo. When I look at many of the games though... and someone correct me if I'm wrong, but the Master System seemed like a much better system than the NES. Like, comparing Double Dragon on the Master System to that on an 8-bit NES... it felt more like the arcade version on the Master System. But still, I wanted an NES... and all the games I wanted, were on the NES.

 

 

I experienced the same, marketing and intimidation by Nintendo on retailers, dominating shelf spaces, and marketing the ensured NINTENDO was first and foremost in the hearts and minds of consumes, children and therefore parents, while I despise the big N when it comes to certain tactics and business practices I cannot deny the their marketing was king, THEY KNEW FULL WELL they did not always have the best "specs" but it never mattered. Lastly a large library and admittedly a slew of quality first part titles. I myself have also been rediscovering Sega Master System of late, something I never gave a second look at let along considered back in the day. 

[Austin]

The Dreamcast marketing was fine. Even good, actually. It's just that it was a major up-hill battle by that point. Nintendo wasn't even who you had to worry about at the time--they were a major distant second in the console race by the late '90s with their Nintendo 64. It was Sony that Sega had to worry about, as the PlayStation had already cemented itself as basically the most popular console of all time. Because of how successful the PlayStation was, the hype for the PS2 was astronomical and not something we have seen in the console space before or since. The PS2 hype was ultimately what doomed the Dreamcast. People recognized that the Dreamcast had great games, but preferred to hold off for the PS2. Dreamcast may have been able to hold on a bit longer if Sega was actually able to execute on the DVD add-on idea, as that was also a major selling point for the PS2, but alas, that wasn't to be.

 

The Saturn on the other hand, Sega truly shot themselves in the foot with that one in North America. Higher initial price than the competition, poor marketing, rushing it out the door early which burned retailers and developers in the process, and it didn't take long for people to recognize the PS1 was technically a superior platform with more impressive (for the time) visuals.

[+Cafeman]

3 hours ago, 82-T/A said:

You got a good pack-in game that had some lineage. I don't even know what the packin' game was with the Genesis... Golden Axe? I mean, I loved Golden Axe, don't get me wrong... but everyone wanted a SNES.

 

Early on, it was crappy ole Altered Beast.  But by the time I got Genesis, it was $129 and you got the fantastic Sonic the Hedgehog as pack-in. SNES seemed on the kiddie side to me, preferred Sega.   Yes, Sega took their lead and squandered it over the next years however.