An NTSC 7800 is on its way to me in the UK, got some questions...

[JayArgonaut]

This is my 2nd Atari purchase in a fortnight. Looks like the addiction is resuming... I've bought an US 7800 from eBay for $46 USD/£35 GBP. Its been described as fully working. Here's a couple of images from the listing:

 

 

 

It's going to be bare bones: no controller - which isn't so much of an issue and no PSU - which is more of an issue. I do have a couple of flat panel TV's which definitely can tune into NTSC signals via RF but it's likely that the older of the two (which was made in 2001) has the sensitivity required to properly lock onto the RF signal from a yesteryear device like this. An A/V mod will be a must. As for the PSU, I've checked out a few threads on here and seen the link to Best Electronics who can provide replacements for $20 USD but given that I'm in the UK I'm wondering if it might be more practical and cheaper for me to remove the original jack and replace it with something more common - as was done in this video:

 

 

I've gone into this with my eyes open and I recognise that whatever I do will require soldering iron sessions and patience. As always, I'd appreciate your advice and suggestions. Thanks all. ?

[mimo]

I have an NTSC 7800 in the UK also.

Definitely mod it to take a standard PSU .

Sounds like you are not afraid of a soldering iron, so some sort of video mod is highly recommended even if your TV can do NTSC over RF.

 

[JayArgonaut]

13 minutes ago, mimo said:

I have an NTSC 7800 in the UK also.

Definitely mod it to take a standard PSU .

It looks like a fairly easy procedure in terms of the soldering involved. ?

13 minutes ago, mimo said:

Sounds like you are not afraid of a soldering iron, so some sort of video mod is highly recommended even if your TV can do NTSC over RF.

RF is the absolute last resort. I've never enjoyed using it... Which A/V mod have you performed on your 7800 by the way?

[juansolo]

We've done a few NTSC 7800's here in the UK. Thread with a lot of waffle here:

 

 

Edited April 24, 2022 by juansolo

[mimo]

36 minutes ago, JayArgonaut said:

It looks like a fairly easy procedure in terms of the soldering involved. ?

RF is the absolute last resort. I've never enjoyed using it... Which A/V mod have you performed on your 7800 by the way?

I had a really basic mod, but then @juansolo did his magic on it.

Also as you will need NTSC games, a multicart is a must if you can get your hands on one 

[marauder666]

4 minutes ago, mimo said:

I had a really basic mod, but then @juansolo did his magic on it.

Also as you will need NTSC games, a multicart is a must if you can get your hands on one 

And that mod has been refined since we did yours, @mimo

We'll update it if you want.

Edited April 24, 2022 by marauder666

[juansolo]

 

1 minute ago, marauder666 said:

And that mod has been refined since we did yours, @mimo

We'll update it if you want.

Yup, send it over and we'll give it an update, it's worth it, it's quite a bit better.

[+slx]

With a PAL 7800 I never had any luck getting it to display via RF on multiple flat TV/monitors. It seems to have a rather peculiar signal that is outside what modern tuners are able to catch. That was for a unit that would display very nicely on a B&O MX4000 and a smaller Sony TV, so nicely indeed that I haven't even installed a video mod yet.

[JayArgonaut]

The 7800 arrived and the seller didn't even throw in the PP II cartridge which was seen in the listing. Ah well, I've bought a cheapo NTSC 2600 cart for £5 so at least I'll be able to play something and test my handiwork... In preparation for tackling the 7800 I've been practising my desoldering using some scrap through-hole PCBs from a 90s TV but my technique is extremely rusty as I haven't used an iron for very long time.

 

I've set the iron to 380^oC and I regularly clean and re-tin the chisel tip whilst working. I'm using the Engineer Solder Sucker pump but as you can see in the following images, the solder isn't extracted fully.

 

 

 

In the image below, I managed to get lucky by using the soldering iron to gently push the component out of the PCB but I'm sure that's not the right procedure.

 

 

Where am I going wrong? Can anyone advise me please on what I need to do in order to improve my technique? I've looked at a few YouTube videos but when I try to copy their methods it doesn't work for me.

[juansolo]

It's mostly just practice until you develop a technique.  Get old stuff and practice removing/refitting parts.

 

But for some advice: Keep your tip clean, the moist sponge works to a degree, the bowl of mesh works better. Use good leaded solder. None of the kit you'll be dealing with will be using unleaded, and it's the work of the devil anyhow. Flux is your friend, use it lots. Get some no clean flux for ease of use. If like me burning flux really makes you suffer, get an extractor fan. I use an old PC case fan... Get some solder braid/wick, learn to use that also, it'll clean up all those holes that haven't sucked. It's way better for cleaning up. Also when you do clean up, some IPA and cotton buds are your friend. Get a good solder sucker ( this style, not the cheapo ones: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294054249170 ). That will also require stripping down and cleaning every now and then. If you're planning on doing a lot of sucking, think about investing in something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254502699335 They can be had for less than that. I think we paid about £60 for ours. Again, they require maintenance to be at their best. Keeping it clean, replacing the filters, etc. I use a combination of both suckers depending on the job in hand.

 

You don't need the poshest kit. I've been using a trigger's broom Antec since I was a teen (I've litterally replaced every part of it multiple times). It's just what I'm used to, and I've got a much hotter iron for when I'm dealing with things that need more temp.

 

Watch some videos. Voultar springs to mind, he plays an eccentric character in his videos that can be a bit odd for people, but he's about the best drag solderer I've seen. For soldering SMD stuff GadgetUK164. Check out some of his NeoGeo stuff. The fact he's doing it with an old Antec (man after my own heart) and on his conservatory floor with cats wandering around, just makes him more legendary. FlashJazzCat has some nice wick technique (steady) and is a bit handy, again worth a watch. There are obviously others.

 

As for what you've been practicing on, they look to have large traces. The bigger they are, the more heat you might need, if it's using unleaded as later stuff in the EU does these days (just bin that...), more again... Stuff with giant ground planes can be an almighty PITA as they just act as massive heat sinks. As can some really old solders that have turned to shit. Prior to de-soldering I tend to add some fresh to it to make sure it flows nice first. Still some things can just be a pain due to combinations of the above. A Coleco I did had a drinks spill on it back in the day and it had done some really odd stuff to the solder on the RAM that made it a nightmare to remove. As I wasn't planning on reusing it, it was just easier to cut all the pins at the IC, then heat each one individually and pull it. Then a thorough clean up with wick and IPA to restore the area to it's former glory. Some stuff can just be awkward and if you do want to take it out intact, it just takes time and patience. Anything through hole with only two leads I'll tend to heat and pull one end at a time then wick afterwards, it's just faster and easier.

Edited May 5, 2022 by juansolo

[juansolo]

This is the solder we use:https://cpc.farnell.com/warton/solder-1-20swg-0-5k/hardcore-solder-1-20swg-0-5kg/dp/SD00018?st=wharton solder

[+Stephen Moss]

On 5/4/2022 at 10:36 PM, JayArgonaut said:

I've set the iron to 380^oC and I regularly clean and re-tin the chisel tip whilst working. I'm using the Engineer Solder Sucker pump but as you can see in the following images, the solder isn't extracted fully.

You will never be able to get it all off, if you want to try and remove it all you would need a vacuum disorder pump but there are generally prohibitively expensive or you could try solder wick. As long as you have removed enough solder to extract the component easily it should be fine.

In addition to the advice juansolo gave, the advice I gave here may also help. 

22 hours ago, juansolo said:

This is the solder we use:https://cpc.farnell.com/warton/solder-1-20swg-0-5k/hardcore-solder-1-20swg-0-5kg/dp/SD00018?st=wharton solder

We use this at work for health and safety reason it has to have Colophony-free rosin, although if you are not exposed to much of it standard rosin will probably be OK unless you have a reaction to it. 

[JayArgonaut]

On 5/5/2022 at 7:47 AM, juansolo said:

It's mostly just practice until you develop a technique.  Get old stuff and practice removing/refitting parts.

 

But for some advice: Keep your tip clean, the moist sponge works to a degree, the bowl of mesh works better. Use good leaded solder. None of the kit you'll be dealing with will be using unleaded, and it's the work of the devil anyhow. Flux is your friend, use it lots. Get some no clean flux for ease of use. If like me burning flux really makes you suffer, get an extractor fan. I use an old PC case fan... Get some solder braid/wick, learn to use that also, it'll clean up all those holes that haven't sucked. It's way better for cleaning up. Also when you do clean up, some IPA and cotton buds are your friend. Get a good solder sucker ( this style, not the cheapo ones: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/294054249170 ). That will also require stripping down and cleaning every now and then.

Here's my iron and my current solder sucker - it's the very same one which you've recommended. ?

 

 

IPA and cotton buds, I already have - they've been invaluable when cleaning edge connectors on computers, consoles and carts.

On 5/5/2022 at 7:47 AM, juansolo said:

If you're planning on doing a lot of sucking, think about investing in something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254502699335 They can be had for less than that. I think we paid about £60 for ours. Again, they require maintenance to be at their best. Keeping it clean, replacing the filters, etc. I use a combination of both suckers depending on the job in hand.

 

You don't need the poshest kit. I've been using a trigger's broom Antec since I was a teen (I've litterally replaced every part of it multiple times). It's just what I'm used to, and I've got a much hotter iron for when I'm dealing with things that need more temp.

Come to think of it, I am planning on carrying out a lot of work. In addition to the 7800, I have a C64, a ZX81 and three Speccy's which need sorting out and a couple of Macs with failing flyback transformers so that would probably be a worthwhile investment.

 

What do you think about these?

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374010349340

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374042240980

 

On 5/5/2022 at 7:47 AM, juansolo said:

Watch some videos. Voultar springs to mind, he plays an eccentric character in his videos that can be a bit odd for people, but he's about the best drag solderer I've seen. For soldering SMD stuff GadgetUK164. Check out some of his NeoGeo stuff. The fact he's doing it with an old Antec (man after my own heart) and on his conservatory floor with cats wandering around, just makes him more legendary. FlashJazzCat has some nice wick technique (steady) and is a bit handy, again worth a watch. There are obviously others.

Thanks, I shall set up playlists with their videos.

On 5/5/2022 at 7:47 AM, juansolo said:

As for what you've been practicing on, they look to have large traces. The bigger they are, the more heat you might need, if it's using unleaded as later stuff in the EU does these days (just bin that...), more again... Stuff with giant ground planes can be an almighty PITA as they just act as massive heat sinks. As can some really old solders that have turned to shit. Prior to de-soldering I tend to add some fresh to it to make sure it flows nice first. Still some things can just be a pain due to combinations of the above. A Coleco I did had a drinks spill on it back in the day and it had done some really odd stuff to the solder on the RAM that made it a nightmare to remove. As I wasn't planning on reusing it, it was just easier to cut all the pins at the IC, then heat each one individually and pull it. Then a thorough clean up with wick and IPA to restore the area to it's former glory. Some stuff can just be awkward and if you do want to take it out intact, it just takes time and patience. Anything through hole with only two leads I'll tend to heat and pull one end at a time then wick afterwards, it's just faster and easier.

I've got some more practice material. Here's further PCBs from the 90s TV:

 

 

 

I pulled these from an old DVB-C box:

 

 

These PCBs are from DSL router modems. They've got a few through-hole areas but given that they were manufactured recently, the odds are that they contain unleaded solder. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

 

 

On 5/6/2022 at 8:31 AM, Stephen Moss said:

You will never be able to get it all off, if you want to try and remove it all you would need a vacuum disorder pump but there are generally prohibitively expensive or you could try solder wick. As long as you have removed enough solder to extract the component easily it should be fine.

In addition to the advice juansolo gave, the advice I gave here may also help. 

We use this at work for health and safety reason it has to have Colophony-free rosin, although if you are not exposed to much of it standard rosin will probably be OK unless you have a reaction to it. 

Thanks for all this great advice, I'll make a few purchases and continue practising. I've just had a Ballblazer cart delivered, so that will be another task to extract the POKEY chip so it can be placed into a Concerto.

[juansolo]

Heat guns are useful if you plan to do SMD stuff (watch Gadget's vids for a how to there). I'd leave that until your comfortable with everything else as it's a really a different skillset and dealing with retro kit means that you really don't tend to do it that often. I do it so infrequently that I've never felt the need and use other ways of doing it. Like when I swapped the dreamcast BIOS, I didn't plan on keeping the original IC, so I just snipped the legs and removed each one individually. SMD components I can usually get with an iron or a pair of irons... If you need to remove an IC intact however, A heatgun really is the only way.

 

That solder sucker you posted I've never seen before so i can't comment. The one I posted is about the best value decent one before spending all the money on a Hakko. The manual pump you've got is really good. The big ones just tend to make your life easier if you're doing a tonne of stuff or a lot of ICs. I bounce between both as to what I use.

 

 

[mimo]

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/374042240980

I looked at these but they have mixed reviews and I saw a YouTube strip down and they look to be pretty poor quality.

I figured you are half way to buying a good desolder gun at that price so I bought a duratool one but it looks like the price of those had gone up about £20  since I bought mine during lockdown 1.0 https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/desoldering-station-uk-eu-plug/dp/SD01384

 

It's been a great purchase though 

[JayArgonaut]

On 5/5/2022 at 7:47 AM, juansolo said:

If you're planning on doing a lot of sucking, think about investing in something like this: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/254502699335 They can be had for less than that. I think we paid about £60 for ours. Again, they require maintenance to be at their best. Keeping it clean, replacing the filters, etc. I use a combination of both suckers depending on the job in hand.

 

On 5/10/2022 at 9:35 AM, mimo said:

...I bought a duratool one but it looks like the price of those had gone up about £20  since I bought mine during lockdown 1.0 https://cpc.farnell.com/duratool/d00672/desoldering-station-uk-eu-plug/dp/SD01384

 

It's been a great purchase though 

An update: I took the plunge and bought the Duratool station from CPC. It arrived the following day and after a bit of practice, I repaired and modified several machines in quick succession. ? I can't thank you enough for the recommendation because its revolutionised desoldering - and also soldering for the matter because the station can also be used with great precision for the latter: to the point that its made my soldering iron rather redundant. I haven't needed to use it since. Creating new solder points is a doddle thanks to the design of the tip's nozzle.

 

I've got one machine to wrap up work on and then I'll proceed to tackling the 7800 and of course I'll update you with my progress on that front. ?

[juansolo]

On 5/31/2022 at 11:25 PM, JayArgonaut said:

I've got one machine to wrap up work on and then I'll proceed to tackling the 7800 and of course I'll update you with my progress on that front. ?

I forgot to mention on that front, after re-reading the thread, you really want to get your hands on an NTSC 7800 cart. With only a 2600 cart (a PAL one with likely work there but the colours will be wrong), you're only testing the TIA side of the 7800 and won't be touching the MARIA at all. It's essentially two machines in one.

[JayArgonaut]

On 7/1/2022 at 8:10 AM, juansolo said:

I forgot to mention on that front, after re-reading the thread, you really want to get your hands on an NTSC 7800 cart. With only a 2600 cart (a PAL one with likely work there but the colours will be wrong), you're only testing the TIA side of the 7800 and won't be touching the MARIA at all. It's essentially two machines in one.

Thanks for the advice. It took a while to obtain a purportedly NTSC 7800 cart at a fairly reasonable price from eBay and the JINKS game arrived today. Beside it is an NTSC 2600 cart that I picked up a while ago for £5 and this means that I've now got both bases covered. ?

 

 

I'll tackle the power jack mod first. The Mark Fixes Stuff technique looks quite straightforward and likely the best solution but I'm open to suggestion if there's another method that I should consider. 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

44 minutes ago, JayArgonaut said:

Thanks for the advice. It took a while to obtain a purportedly NTSC 7800 cart at a fairly reasonable price from eBay and the JINKS game arrived today. Beside it is an NTSC 2600 cart that I picked up a while ago for £5 and this means that I've now got both bases covered. ?

 

 

I'll tackle the power jack mod first. The Mark Fixes Stuff technique looks quite straightforward and likely the best solution but I'm open to suggestion if there's another method that I should consider. 

The only other thing I would add that Mark didn't in his video is that you need to replace the ferrite bead at FB1 just under the large filter cap, with a 4001 series rectifier diode. Regardless of how you wire up the polarity, this is to help make sure that someone in the future doesn't use the wrong power supply that isn't aware of the polarity and fry it. 

 

I also used epoxy vs hot glue in addition to a cable tie. But I soldered the wire to the center tab on the top and applied a tiny bit of shrink to the open tab on the side. I did this because that way the top tab helps provide another secure anchor for the cable tie since it will sit between all of the tabs quite well that way.