BackBit cartridge on the Intellivision

[evietron]

There were some bugs that were fixed. I can still add saving support.

[8bitwidgets.com]

@evietron if there is anything I can do to help or at least test let me know!  So in how you approach fixing things like this?  fixing save for this game.. would this mean other games with a similar save feature (so far as i know these JLP save games only have one slot.. not like they have multiple save slots like say, the legend of zelda) would they "just work"? or would each game need to be addressed?  i don't know the save / file structure is with these games (does each game just have a unique file save name?)

Edited May 29, 2023 by Caleb Garner

[evietron]

I made a tentative implementation of JLP flash. The way I set it up it will use the BackBit versioning system to store saves, and they will be appended to the ECS file internally, with the option to export them as well to standalone files. And it should work for any JLP flash saving cart. After I get it working I'll send you a build to test.

[8bitwidgets.com]

Fantastic!  

[evietron]

OK save games have been implemented in latest BackBit firmware. It passes the JLP test program. It will not save permanently until you press the cart button to return to the menu. Let me know if you run into any issues.

[8bitwidgets.com]

@evietron It worked!       this is amazing!     I don't have any other JLP games at this time to test.   Does anyone else out there know of any free or affordable (IE under $20) JLP games I could buy to go test?  

 

@Brian's Man Cave Also I am happy to report perfection works on the backbit for me!   However, I almost didn't think it worked because for some reason, because i was playing with the second player controller.  but yea once i played with player 1 (i had my patch panel backwards) it works great now.  

[mr_me]

Is Onion working?

[8bitwidgets.com]

13 minutes ago, mr_me said:

Is Onion working?

I didn't test that one.  I will try tonight.  

[aotta]

4 hours ago, evietron said:

OK save games have been implemented in latest BackBit firmware. It passes the JLP test program. It will not save permanently until you press the cart button to return to the menu. Let me know if you run into any issues.

Nice work evietron, but implementing only JLP saving schemas seems not very useful to me, that's why i didn't implement it in my RTO multicart.

New games that use JLP acceleration code are often encrypted too for anti-piracy purpouse, and i think only LTO original hw & sw could manage them.

By the way, i'm fashinated by your multicart, and i'm only waiting since i'm not sure if i want to buy first it or your Chip tester... i love it!

[+DZ-Jay]

8 minutes ago, aotta said:

Nice work evietron, but implementing only JLP saving schemas seems not very useful to me, that's why i didn't implement it in my RTO multicart.

New games that use JLP acceleration code are often encrypted too for anti-piracy purpouse, and i think only LTO original hw & sw could manage them.

By the way, i'm fashinated by your multicart, and i'm only waiting since i'm not sure if i want to buy first it or your Chip tester... i love it!

The JLP saving capability is not related to the LTO-specific features like encryption.  It is also distinct from hardware acceleration functions.  There are various home-brews that use it, and I expect many more to do so in the future, especially as JLP boards become more available.

 

The API for the save-game feature is published and free, and the emulator supports it.  
 

You should at least consider a future implementation.  It would be great if more games could be published with this feature without the need to depend on a single board manufacturer.

 

   dZ.

[8bitwidgets.com]

11 minutes ago, DZ-Jay said:

It would be great if more games could be published with this feature without the need to depend on a single board manufacturer.

absolutely. there is no reason to not too..  the possibilities that JLP offers homebrew devs is amazing..   a save function.. that alone makes it soooo worth it for high scores..  game progress..  just too cool  

 

 

I'm also now in possession of a copy of Lost Caves of Kroz rom from @Elektronite that I'm going to test out ASAP..  this will be interesting because unlike SoG..  it has 3 unique save slots so it will be a great test to see if it "just works" or needs some special handling to address this difference.  

[carlsson]

1 hour ago, aotta said:

New games that use JLP acceleration code are often encrypted too for anti-piracy purpouse,

As far as I understand, only Joe has the tools and knowledge to do this. Given how busy he seems to be, it appears encrypted ROMs currently are not released for new games. Rather those are cartridge only, or if enough time has passed and the game doesn't have any licensed IP, it might be possible to sell as an unencrypted ROM.

 

Frankly I still don't see why not single direction encryption using an open algorithm and implementation was considered. Most of the Internet protocols and even banking today are built on such algorithms. Surely the Intellivision isn't more sensitive to hacking and piracy than the major payment providers and online identification services are?

[8bitwidgets.com]

29 minutes ago, carlsson said:

it might be possible to sell as an unencrypted ROM.

this would certainly be the way..  but yea some games (like balderdash) may never be in anything but cart / encrypted format, but for Original IP I would think at some point devs would be ok going with roms once the cartridges are no longer in print.. 

 

56 minutes ago, carlsson said:

Frankly I still don't see why not single direction encryption using an open algorithm and implementation was considered.

Well thankfully encryption while a nice facet of JLP thankfully can be ignored and folks can use the other facets.   I respect the encryption idea and honestly i'd be all for it if it were not in a black box..   it would be great if some kind of encryption could be implemented by a publisher or the developer themselves so they could opt in with some DRM..  but then as I saw that, isn't it that most DRM stuff can be bypassed anyway?  Maybe it just needs enough of a following for someone to bother getting into it and this is a fairly small / niche community..   its like Viruses and the Amiga back in the day..  sure some existed, but there really was no motivation for anyone to attack a fairly small and devoted scene.. compared to the evil PC empire where someone could do the same amount of work and do far more damage / gain notoriety or glory..  

 

[Games For Your Intellivision]

LTO Flash! encryption has to be done 'at the factory'. Anything can be encrypted, even Astrosmash for example. They can be encrypted for use on ALL LTO Flash! units, or done on an individual basis. Right now, we don't sell encrypted ROMS for the LTO Flash! simply because we don't have encrypted ROMS for all of the approximately 1000 LTO Flash! units in the wild. Hopefully, this can be remedied soon. 

 

JLP saves, extra ram, acceleration and bank switching are of course supported by LTO Flash! units. 

 

Flash cartridges such as the Backbit and RTO SHOULD be able to support game saves, extra ram and bank switching. Bringing JLP acceleration and encryption into the conversation is just confusing and unnecessary. 

 

JLP math routine acceleration is used in FUBAR, and maybe Boulder Dash. That's it.  

 

I don't know if the 'INT' extension put out by the 'Good Roms' people includes the configuration file or not. It might be a rename of ROM files (which have the cfg built in) or just a rename of BIN files, which is of course missing the cfg file. Really, someone needs to ask whoever puts out these 'int' ROMS to rename them to .rom and make sure they work with existing emulators. 

 

The important part is that when downloading a .bin file for the Intellivision, it should be considered incomplete if it doesn't come with a .cfg file as well. 

[8bitwidgets.com]

6 hours ago, Games For Your Intellivision said:

Bringing JLP acceleration and encryption into the conversation is just confusing and unnecessary. 

Agreed, acceleration muddies the waters for most folks as it's not really been utilized much at all..   the encryption does feel kinda overkill but honestly if it could be managed and all sd carts would support it and the process wasn't in some black box, I would have no problem buying a rom like this to insure it doesn't get distributed (on purpose or by accident).  That said, I like to think that this community would not bum games off each other and buy our own copies if we see a game we like and would like to see more of..  just seems against the communities own best interests to pirate stuff, especially when roms are often at a very affordable price. 

 

11 hours ago, Games For Your Intellivision said:

I don't know if the 'INT' extension put out by the 'Good Roms' people includes the configuration file or not.

they do as i understand it.  if you use the tool that "decompiles" them I believe it spits out both files.  

[Games For Your Intellivision]

LTO Flash! encryption is secure and ONLY for LTO Flash!  It would not be secure if it was supported by other flash cartridges. 

 

There are approximately 1000 LTO Flash! units in the wild. "Typical" (not always the case but true much of the time) ROM sales are in the 30 copy range. So, the people who will want a ROM and support a title that is being encrypted for LTO Flash! will probably have an LTO Flash!. There are far more LTO Flash! units than people willing to pay for ROMS. 

 

Therefore, encryption support by competing flash cartridges is absolutely unnecessary, in my opinion. 

 

I recently saw on a ROM site, people asking for the Defender of the Crown ROM. It hasn't been released and is on protected cartridges. Also, they were asking for Stop the Express and Yars' Revenge for the Intellivision, despite those ROMS being available for purchase for a very reasonable amount. 

 

Things like that don't encourage me to release unencrypted Elektronite ROMS. 

[8bitwidgets.com]

Onion works after running it through the ECS conversion script..   wow what a cool game..   I played a little and all is well..  i didn't test saving though as i don't know when you can save..  Sorrow of Gadhlan was easier to test as you could save right at the start of a new game.   If anyone knows how far in and how to save a game let me know and I'll test that.  

 

Kroz didn't compile right with the ECS script but I've let @evietron know my results.  it's a new error so it might just point out something unique that this game needs that prior JLP save games didn't have.   One unique thing for sure is that Khaz has 3 save slots vs.  Onion (I think) and Sorrow (I know) only have a single save slot to manage.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Caleb Garner

[8bitwidgets.com]

37 minutes ago, Games For Your Intellivision said:

It would not be secure if it was supported by other flash cartridges. 

Good to know. 

 

37 minutes ago, Games For Your Intellivision said:

Also, they were asking for Stop the Express and Yars' Revenge for the Intellivision, despite those ROMS being available for purchase for a very reasonable amount. 

well some people are just like that..  always someone looking for free options, either out of ignorance or just being cheap bastards..   I would like to think those of us buying legit roms are not handing them out to our friends..   I love owning Tron Rebooted and Ms. Night Stalker and I'd encourage anyone to go buy them, but I wouldn't send them to someone to try out..  if my recommendation isn't enough..  that's as far as I could take it.  

[8bitwidgets.com]

1 hour ago, Games For Your Intellivision said:

Things like that don't encourage me to release unencrypted Elektronite ROMS. 

Well it might also be a case by case basis.. I'd like to think some in the community have enough "street cred" to be trusted to own roms while the internet in general is not fair game to just buy willy-nilly..    I wish there was a way to easily watermark roms..  something to make the sharing of files have SOME level of accountability.  

[+cjherr]

42 minutes ago, Caleb Garner said:

Well it might also be a case by case basis.. I'd like to think some in the community have enough "street cred" to be trusted to own roms while the internet in general is not fair game to just buy willy-nilly..    I wish there was a way to easily watermark roms..  something to make the sharing of files have SOME level of accountability.  

Agreed.  I prefer roms vs carts just for space reasons. My office/game room/man cave/ is at critical mass. Plus, I don't have to plug and unplug carts. However, I fully understand the other side of the coin, and making people who distribute homebrew games guess on a case by case basis who would or wouldn't pirate would be a PITA. Once the rom is "in the wild",  there's no way to get it back. I know that I don't share roms I have purchased, but that's easy for anyone to say. The encryption scheme is currently the only way to release roms and keep them where they belong.

[8bitwidgets.com]

I'm 100% with you @cjherr  I realize that my particular collecting strategy relies on roms..  and i simply have to accept that cart-only games will simply not be options for me.  I completely get sides of the coin.  I also realize that ironically if I ever complete a game for the intellivision, I'd like it to be available in cartridge form but I would also like a rom option as well and frankly even if roms leak and get out there, i don't see that diminishing the desirability of a well made cartridge game, either for the collector vibe or just for the authentic experience of playing it on a cartridge.  

[+cjherr]

My feeling exactly. I play 95% of my games on roms, but there are the occasional ones that I will purchase on cart, even if I already have purchased the rom. I believe our publishers deserve all the support they can get, so I purchase roms and the occasional cart to do what I can. 

[aotta]

On 5/31/2023 at 6:09 AM, Games For Your Intellivision said:

 

Flash cartridges such as the Backbit and RTO SHOULD be able to support game saves, extra ram and bank switching. Bringing JLP acceleration and encryption into the conversation is just confusing and unnecessary. 

 

JLP math routine acceleration is used in FUBAR, and maybe Boulder Dash. That's it.  

 

The important part is that when downloading a .bin file for the Intellivision, it should be considered incomplete if it doesn't come with a .cfg file as well. 

RTO use .bin+.cfg and supports bank switching, ECS, extra ram and hacks pokes. Just not supporting game saving, and personally i think it's a feature rarely used in homebrews and I'm not interested in implementing it. Anyway, Teensy used as engine in RTO has flash ram too and the project is open source, so who's interested could add that feature.

Speaking about differences between Backbit, LTO and RTO is not confusing and unnecessary IMO, no more than discussing if it's better a physical rom than the binary file!

[+DZ-Jay]

2 hours ago, aotta said:

RTO use .bin+.cfg and supports bank switching, ECS, extra ram and hacks pokes.

 

I agree that those are the core features that should be supported.  👍

 

2 hours ago, aotta said:

Just not supporting game saving, and personally i think it's a feature rarely used in homebrews and I'm not interested in implementing it.

 

You may not be interested in implementing it, but I believe it would be a good feature to add.  It may be "rarely used" at the moment, but that's perhaps due to its novelty and the fact that it is not something easy to use correctly.

However, if simple support routines were to be packaged in an easy to use library module for IntyBASIC -- say, something that just automatically saves and retrieves a high-score table, or an array of system settings or game state, with a simple subroutine call -- I bet you its use would explode.

 

I implemented an API in assembly language for one of my games recently, based on Joe Z.'s technical recommendations and reference implementation, and it wasn't so straightforward to get right.  Abstracting the complexity included handling polling states asynchronously, handling errors, and a few other technical realities.

 

I may port it to IntyBASIC one of these days with a reference program to show how to use it, and include it in a future SDK as a core library.

 

2 hours ago, aotta said:

Anyway, Teensy used as engine in RTO has flash ram too and the project is open source, so who's interested could add that feature.

 

I think that's great, and your effort and contribution is immensely appreciated.  More so for releasing it as open source.

 

Unfortunately, the number of members in this community with the skill or disposition to tinker with and build upon your work, is very small.

 

Still, at the end of the day, I rather have bank-switching and extended RAM over Flash storage.

 

2 hours ago, aotta said:

Speaking about differences between Backbit, LTO and RTO is not confusing and unnecessary IMO, no more than discussing if it's better a physical rom than the binary file!

 

You are right, in principle.  However, I believe the point was that people seem to confuse general features available in JLP boards (such as bank-switching and save-game capabilities) with LTO Flash! specific features like hardware acceleration and DRM.

 

Read back this very frame to see examples of this:  a lot of time and energy was wasted initially when people were confusingly requested "LTO features" to be added to the Backbit -- when all they meant was extended RAM and bank-switching.

 

All that being said, talking about the differences between Backbit, LTO, and RTO is indeed a useful discussion, albeit perhaps one belonging to its own topic -- definitely not in a thread entitled "BackBit cartridge on the Intellivision."

 

     -dZ.

[mr_me]

I think if the cartridge doesn't have save game support it can still run and play a game that uses it.  Let us know if that's not the case.  The save game feature might be more likely used by Intellivision developers than hardware acceleration functions, and even then only certain types of games would benefit from having save game.  Grail of the Gods used hardware acceleration because its code was ported from other systems and benefited from a little extra power.

Edited June 1, 2023 by mr_me