Tempest Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 2 hours ago, Keatah said: And while Apple II couldn't possibly keep up with games of the 90's, there were still useful things I was doing with it What was the most complex/impressive arcade port the Apple II managed to pull off? There were tons of late arcade ports that it definitely shouldn't have tried (Ikari Warriors II, Robocop, Kid Niki, Heavy Barrel, etc.), but there must have been some later ones that were actually good. Mario Bros is probably its most impressive port, but that's hardly a complex arcade game. I'd personally go with Rampage as I always thought that was both a good looking port and a good playing port. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 15 hours ago, Keatah said: But cutesy garbagey stuff like TMNT & Mario went way over my head - Sonic is the most I tolerate. My thinking at the time was I had to grow up and "accept" the TMNT style. It was so boring though. And there were times I felt bad not being able to rise to the occasion. Shit! I don't think I ever played TMNT in MAME either. I was immediately soured on those games and the institution they represented. Super Mario was another one I could not get into! As I said I was influenced by the early 80s arcade game scebe where everything, even the cutesy games like Pengo and Q*Bert were kind of dark (both in subject matter and dark screens). Then I moved to computers with more serious games and gritty RPGs, upgraded to 16-bit ST, so I'd gotten used to 16-bit graphics. So then along comes NES and suddenly everyone I know is buying them and playing these Super Mario Games. Colorful but already dated 8-bit graphics, happy clouds, happy flowers, peppy (8-bit) music, everything bopping along! Ugh, My eyes! My ears! Felt like kiddie games, but couldn't understand why were all my late-teen friends into them? Worse you could just continue the game endlessly, which ended the "share the console" ethic we had developed in the 2600 era where you'd pass the controller to the next person when your game ended. I gravitated more towards Sonic because it was a little less cutesy and 16-bit. But I never liked it enough to buy a Genesis. 3 hours ago, Keatah said: Never had the opportunity to go through them all. It was next to impossible to acquire any games for it. Legit or pirated. I would think Amiga would have many of the same ports the ST got, and yeah sometimes obtaining specific software for ST was challenging and I'd have to resort to special order or mail order. But I'd also get ST games from Electronics Boutique and other retailers and I'm pretty sure they stocked Amiga versions as well. So I acquired a fair number of games from legit sources. Then in college a friend brought me a box filled with dozens of disks of ST software (pirate copies). There were a lot of games in there didn't even know existed or had ST ports! So I don't think ST or Amiga were hurting for software. The main issue was by the late 80s most retailers were only interested in stocking software for PC, and it was harder to come by without resorting to mail-order. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 23 minutes ago, Tempest said: What was the most complex/impressive arcade port the Apple II managed to pull off? There were tons of late arcade ports that it definitely shouldn't have tried (Ikari Warriors II, Robocop, Kid Niki, Heavy Barrel, etc.), but there must have been some later ones that were actually good. Mario Bros is probably its most impressive port, but that's hardly a complex arcade game. I'd personally go with Rampage as I always thought that was both a good looking port and a good playing port. Congo Bongo on Apple II always impressed me graphically, especially since most home ports of that game looked like dog poo. Apple II had the right perspective and looked nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted May 26, 2022 Share Posted May 26, 2022 11 minutes ago, zzip said: Congo Bongo on Apple II always impressed me graphically, especially since most home ports of that game looked like dog poo. Apple II had the right perspective and looked nice. I think the Apple II, C64 (Disk version), the PC were the only arcade correct versions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted May 27, 2022 Author Share Posted May 27, 2022 Toward the end there were titles that maybe shouldn't have been done. It's a mixed bag however. Nice to see them having been done. But also disappointing because of the slide-show frame rate. Flight Simulator II would be an example. I loved the enhanced "everything", scenery, panel, world.. But it was pretty slow at updating the display. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusfalkirk Posted May 27, 2022 Share Posted May 27, 2022 I started with arcade games back in the dark ages, when most of the games were vector graphics. In 77 I joined the Air Force. In 79 I bought the Sears Video Arcade, their version of the Atari 2600. In 81 a friend told me about the Apple II+ and I bought the computer and a disk drive, couldn't afford the monitor, so I got a rf adapter to use my portable color tv. Eventually gave the Sears console to my future in-laws, because Atari games and Apple II games cost the same but the graphics were better on the Apple II+. I had shown my older brother my Sears console, but didn't know he went and bought one himself. Years later, 93 he got me back into console gaming by giving me a Sega Genesis that needed repairs. One of the best games I played on it was Starflight. I wish there had been a port of that game to the GS. I've currently got a MacBook Pro, and running Apple II & GS emulators on it along with OpenEmu, which is emulating several console systems. Of course I have an Apple IIc+ and a GS, that I play on every once in a while. Flight Simulator II running on the IIc+, at 4mhz, is definitely interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusfalkirk Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 Just as a quick follow up, to really show my age, it was pinball machines, the old mechanical ones, that I played first. One of the first video games I remember was 'Space War'. There was another one where two players could try to shoot down airplanes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted May 28, 2022 Author Share Posted May 28, 2022 5 hours ago, magnusfalkirk said: Eventually gave the Sears console to my future in-laws, because Atari games and Apple II games cost the same but the graphics were better on the Apple II+. I could debate you on that. Apple II graphics were indeed higher resolution and bit mapped. But VCS graphics were faster, more colorful, didn't slow down with scrolling, and objects could be larger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted May 28, 2022 Author Share Posted May 28, 2022 Dude.. I was old when they had those lunar lander models hanging by cables. And you had to do a soft landing of the model. Remember the one with the rotating terrain on like a big-ass lazy susan? I'm talking before that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnusfalkirk Posted May 28, 2022 Share Posted May 28, 2022 6 hours ago, Keatah said: Dude.. I was old when they had those lunar lander models hanging by cables. And you had to do a soft landing of the model. Remember the one with the rotating terrain on like a big-ass lazy susan? I'm talking before that! Yeah i remember that game! I was never very good at that, so I wasted a lot of money in the pinball machines. The mechanical one were nice in that you could just about pick it up to get the ball to go where you wanted it to and it wouldn't tilt. When they came out with the electronic ones it seemed like if you breathed hard on it they would tilt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColecoGamer Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 I’m actually partial to the Apple II version of Dig Dug. I really like how the game plays, even though the graphics are fair and the sound effects/music are minimal at best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 1 hour ago, ColecoGamer said: I’m actually partial to the Apple II version of Dig Dug. I really like how the game plays, even though the graphics are fair and the sound effects/music are minimal at best. Interesting. I think the Apple II version of Dig Dug is one of the worst on any system. It plays wrong and sounds terrible. I had both the Apple II and Atari 800 versions growing up and it was no contest. And I'm a huge Apple II guy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathAdderSF Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 (edited) 32 minutes ago, Tempest said: It plays wrong and sounds terrible. To be fair, it was one of the few games that had music going during gameplay, which from what I've read is not easy to do 'cuz of the computer's hardware limitations. So perhaps that's why the music isn't exactly superb. Still beats the lazy, off-key tunes in the Apple II version of Donkey Kong, tho. Also, in the pirated version I had growing up, the Fygars didn't actually breathe fire! Maybe it was a bug introduced by a clumsy cracker, or maybe they pirated a prototype of the game? Who knows. But the retail game does have Fygar fire as it should, so the "4am" crack of the game is the one to play for sure. Edited June 14, 2022 by DeathAdderSF 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 14, 2022 Author Share Posted June 14, 2022 For whatever reason I *do* like Apple II version of Dig Dug and tend to prefer it. Just do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Usotsuki Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 Random: When I ported Dig Dug to ProDOS (to put on hard drives, 3.5" disks etc.), I used LoGo's crack. I also have a port of one of 4am's cracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathAdderSF Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 1 hour ago, Keatah said: For whatever reason I *do* like Apple II version of Dig Dug and tend to prefer it. Just do. I always thought it was fine. And fun. But then, it was also the first version of the game that I ever played. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathAdderSF Posted June 14, 2022 Share Posted June 14, 2022 1 hour ago, The Usotsuki said: Random: When I ported Dig Dug to ProDOS (to put on hard drives, 3.5" disks etc.), I used LoGo's crack. I also have a port of one of 4am's cracks. Those ProDOS ports some of y'all are doing are YUGE. I have done some work in my spare time putting together a HDD volume filled with them, specifically tailored for the Trackstar ISA cards (which have a hard-coded 10 MB volume size limit). Will finish it one day, tho it won't be any time soon. In the mean time tho, I've converted over hundreds of "clean cracks" by 4am to APP format disk images. Really awesome to have access to such a large software catalog, and it helps a lot for my software compatibility testing: because even when loading in a real Apple ROM, these cards are still not 100% compatible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Gah, I'm outnumbered on this one I guess. But out of all the Atarisoft ports it's one of the weakest, right down there with Donkey Kong and it's 'six million dollar man jumping' (although I have a soft spot for it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathAdderSF Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) 46 minutes ago, Tempest said: right down there with Donkey Kong Donkey Kong was really, REALLY bad on Apple II. Even as a kid I saw it as a shoddy adaptation, and I overlooked a lot in those days. So I almost never played DK back then, and I'd never play it now. Edited June 15, 2022 by DeathAdderSF Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doug0909 Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 Sorry if this is a dumb question, but as I recall having more fun playing Lode Runner and a few other games on a keyboard on my Apple IIc than with any other twitch gaming experience in my life... Sometimes I've wondered, looking at the machine's graphical and sound limitations... And looking at responses to this question... And thinking about others who recall Apple II gaming experiences in an extremely positive light... Is it possible there's more going on here than nostalgia, something very specific about Apple II computers such that the experience really was in a sense top notch and cannot be approached in emulation? I'm specifically thinking about the latency issue, and this claim that the Apple II had the least latency of any computer, ever... https://danluu.com/input-lag/ Could that have impacted the feel of gaming, particularly gaming with a keyboard, in a very positive way? Or would the results of such a study about the time it takes for a character to appear on screen after pressing a key be of little relevance to gaming? (Has anyone looked at latency issues in early arcade games?) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 12 hours ago, doug0909 said: Is it possible there's more going on here than nostalgia, something very specific about Apple II computers such that the experience really was in a sense top notch and cannot be approached in emulation? I only rarely saw games running on actual Apple II's back in the day, but when I try Apple II games under emulation the experience seems awful- sound is excessively loud and annoying and colors that make your eyes bleed. I don't remember it being quite like that in my limited experience with real hardware, so hopefully it's just the emulation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoyous Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 22 minutes ago, zzip said: I only rarely saw games running on actual Apple II's back in the day, but when I try Apple II games under emulation the experience seems awful- sound is excessively loud and annoying and colors that make your eyes bleed. I don't remember it being quite like that in my limited experience with real hardware, so hopefully it's just the emulation? I think the Apple II was kind of typical of that late 70s/early 80s era in that, if it was going to be the high resolution graphics mode, the tradeoff was that the color palette was very limited - and idiosyncratic. Also, there was a characteristic of the graphics that produced unintentional colors in certain circumstances - I'm sure someone else can better describe it in technical terms. My experience of that was minimized because I usually used an Apple IIe with a monochromatic green screen. Sound was always very rudimentary until the late 80s or early 90s when I started hearing software that featured modulated noise in ways that seemed very advanced in comparison to the usual beeps. Personally I don't remember thinking that any of the arcade conversions I played were better than the arcade version... usually even if the graphics were fairly accurate, the framerate and overall pacing was slower. I do remember being very impressed with Mario Bros. on the IIe. But most of the games I played were original titles and played to the strengths of the home experience. They were also ambitious in ways that arcade or console ways weren't. The best games were just going in a different direction than what was available on other platforms, which I think is usually the right way to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zzip Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 2 minutes ago, Zoyous said: I think the Apple II was kind of typical of that late 70s/early 80s era in that, if it was going to be the high resolution graphics mode, the tradeoff was that the color palette was very limited - and idiosyncratic. Also, there was a characteristic of the graphics that produced unintentional colors in certain circumstances - I'm sure someone else can better describe it in technical terms. My experience of that was minimized because I usually used an Apple IIe with a monochromatic green screen. Sound was always very rudimentary until the late 80s or early 90s when I started hearing software that featured modulated noise in ways that seemed very advanced in comparison to the usual beeps. I do know the details of how Apple II does graphics and color. Typically hi-res games will be black and white but use color artifacting to create extra colors: Blue, Green, Purple and Red/Orange. Atari 8-bit uses a similar technique in hi-res mode. It's just that the emulators I've used seem to produce very obnoxious versions of these colors and don't seem emulate artifacting correctly- leading to more false colors than should be there. When I look at actually Apple II screenshots from BITD, they don't look so bad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoyous Posted June 15, 2022 Share Posted June 15, 2022 2 hours ago, zzip said: It's just that the emulators I've used seem to produce very obnoxious versions of these colors and don't seem emulate artifacting correctly- leading to more false colors than should be there. When I look at actually Apple II screenshots from BITD, they don't look so bad. Oh, that's interesting. Honestly I found Apple II emulators pretty difficult to work with in years past so I haven't looked closely at them for quite some time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keatah Posted June 15, 2022 Author Share Posted June 15, 2022 (edited) I find AppleWin to work well. Try it, you don't have to install anything. The sound seems exact, but of course loud. And you fix that by turning down the volume. The colors are less stark and edgy if you use the COLOR TV option. 3 hours ago, zzip said: Sound was always very rudimentary until the late 80s or early 90s when I started hearing software that featured modulated noise in ways that seemed very advanced in comparison to the usual beeps. Yes this usually came at the cost of on-screen action. Bug Attack was a well-known exception because the onscreen items were few and they were small anyways. Remember the CPU has to use time to push and pull the speaker cone all by itself. 3 hours ago, Zoyous said: Also, there was a characteristic of the graphics that produced unintentional colors in certain circumstances - I'm sure someone else can better describe it in technical terms. False color, or artifacting.. Essentially the Apple II disturbed the NTSC signal at different times (based on video-ram values). And the monitor saw this glitching as color. There is no real color circuit (as we tend to think of it) in the Apple II. 3 hours ago, zzip said: It's just that the emulators I've used seem to produce very obnoxious versions of these colors and don't seem emulate artifacting correctly- leading to more false colors than should be there. When I look at actually Apple II screenshots from BITD, they don't look so bad. Try AppleWin. I know they spent some time awhile ago working on this. 16 hours ago, doug0909 said: I'm specifically thinking about the latency issue, and this claim that the Apple II had the least latency of any computer, ever... https://danluu.com/input-lag/ I haven't conducted my own tests or anything. But it does make sense. Apple II likely has the least amount of circuitry between the user and the display device. Only beaten by (perhaps) other single-board computers of the S-100 era or shortly thereafter. Kim-1, AIM-65, other single-board trainers.. Apple II is after all of the single-board microcomputer era. I would argue its (wonderful woz) design philosophy is more "single-board" than the other two of the trinity, PET and Model I. And it's definitely a generation earlier than anything Atari made, VCS or Atari 400/800. On par with the early Pong/Tank/Tennis/Hockey consoles, minus any custom chips of course. This lack of custom chips lends itself to the low-latency. There's no time wasted on setting up those chips. No interrupts to irk the player. No other internal houskeeping stuff going on. Just the user and the program! Complete opposite of today's bloat. VCS could be considered the ultimate minimalist game console. Despite having more complex circuitry than the Apple II, the VCS brute forced the programmer to make every single byte do something useful. Zero wastage. TRIVIA: VCS has (IIRC) about 15,000 transistors between the user and display monitor. Apple II about half that. Edited June 15, 2022 by Keatah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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