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Looking to get into the ][


Grizaptimus

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Hey there everyone, 

 

Up until now I have mainly chilled in the Atari areas, but recently I have found myself wanting to get into the Apple ][.

 

After a bit of research it looks like the best approach is to get either a //e or a IIgs for the greatest compatibility.  However, while browsing I found this

Apple ][+ motherboard kit which has really caught my interest.  How much would I miss out on if I were to go the ][+ route?

 

Also, I am rather fond of the mechanical keyboards and saw that recently MacEffects has released a rather nice ALPS //e keyboard.  Is it possible, or is there an adapter for a //e keyboard to work on the ][+?

 

What I am looking to do with the Apple is to of course play some games, as well as using it as a Serial Terminal for my linux box as well as some other older machines.

 

Thank you all for your time.

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42 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

For the fewest compatibility issues and headaches you should definitely just get a IIe Platinum. 

I will second Bill's opinion.  The IIe Platinum is the ultimate version of the pure 8-bit II line with a full keypad to boot.  Now, the IIgs will provide a broader range being able to do 8-bit and 16-bit.  But, for 8-bit purposes the IIe Platinum is the best bet imo.

Edited by Hwlngmad
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1 minute ago, Hwlngmad said:

I will second Bill's opinion.  The IIe Platinum is the ultimate version of the pure 8-bit II line with a full keypad to boot.  Now, the IIgs will provide a broader range being able to do 8-bit and 16-bit.  But, for 8-bit purposes the IIe Platinum is the best bet imo.

While I still maintain a few IIGS's as part of my collection (along with a few IIe series), I'd definitely say going that route would add a whole other layer of complexity that is probably not worth it unless you're really interested in exploring IIGS stuff. It's definitely cool to have, kind of like the equivalent of having an Amiga/C-64 combo or Atari ST/Atari 8-bit combo, but there are definite trade-offs.

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1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

While I still maintain a few IIGS's as part of my collection (along with a few IIe series), I'd definitely say going that route would add a whole other layer of complexity that is probably not worth it unless you're really interested in exploring IIGS stuff. It's definitely cool to have, kind of like the equivalent of having an Amiga/C-64 combo or Atari ST/Atari 8-bit combo, but there are definite trade-offs.

No doubt about, Bill.  The IIGS has some great stuff to explore 16-bit wise along with the 8-bit capabilities.  But, yeah, for pure 8-bit action the IIe Platinum is where it is at I think.

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2 hours ago, magnusfalkirk said:

There are lots of older games that will  run on the ][+, but most of the newer ones, probably released after the enhanced //e was released in 1985, would probably require the newer one since they require 128k and double hi-res graphics.

I'm pretty sure there are upgrades you can install :)

My Platinum didn't even come with the RAM/double-res card, I had to buy one off eBay.

 

7 hours ago, Grizaptimus said:

Also, I am rather fond of the mechanical keyboards and saw that recently MacEffects has released a rather nice ALPS //e keyboard.  Is it possible, or is there an adapter for a //e keyboard to work on the ][+?

Idunno, but the Platinum's keyboard is surprisingly nice. Not "clicky", but nice.

 

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19 hours ago, Grizaptimus said:

Also, I am rather fond of the mechanical keyboards and saw that recently MacEffects has released a rather nice ALPS //e keyboard.  Is it possible, or is there an adapter for a //e keyboard to work on the ][+?

 

Unfortunately, no.  Or at least not to my knowledge.  The keyboard for the ][ and ][+ have an encoder board between the keyboard and motherboard.  The //e has the encoder built in to the motherboard.  

To use a //e board on a ][+ you would need to wire it in to an encoder.  The good news is that there are several clone keyboards out there similar to the //e or //e platinum.  Also, as an alternative, there are some adaptors that will allow you to use a verity of third party keayboards (mostly ps2), even an IBM Model M.

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Wow I wasn't expecting this level of response, 

48 minutes ago, DistantStar001 said:

Unfortunately, no.  Or at least not to my knowledge.  The keyboard for the ][ and ][+ have an encoder board between the keyboard and motherboard.  The //e has the encoder built in to the motherboard.  

To use a //e board on a ][+ you would need to wire it in to an encoder.  The good news is that there are several clone keyboards out there similar to the //e or //e platinum.  Also, as an alternative, there are some adaptors that will allow you to use a verity of third party keayboards (mostly ps2), even an IBM Model M.

That is unfortunate, In my search I have found a couple of the PS2 -> A2 keyboard converters but none for //e -> ][+

 

13 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

While I still maintain a few IIGS's as part of my collection (along with a few IIe series), I'd definitely say going that route would add a whole other layer of complexity that is probably not worth it unless you're really interested in exploring IIGS stuff. It's definitely cool to have, kind of like the equivalent of having an Amiga/C-64 combo or Atari ST/Atari 8-bit combo, but there are definite trade-offs.

Is is possible to run a IIgs as just a faster //e?  Is is still able to run the older DOS3.3 stuff or is it limited to ProDOS and GS/OS?  A IIgs with an Extended keyboard might scratch the itch.

 

Is there a reason that no //e motherboard replacements exist?  are they just common enough that no one has cared to do it yet?

 

12 hours ago, Asaki said:

I'm pretty sure there are upgrades you can install :)

My Platinum didn't even come with the RAM/double-res card, I had to buy one off eBay.

 

Idunno, but the Platinum's keyboard is surprisingly nice. Not "clicky", but nice.

 

How does the keyboard on the normal //e compare with the Platinum's?

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Don't bother with anything other than a //e Platinum, for the reasons stated previously. The II+ is limiting in the types of memory upgrades it takes. It has 86 socketed chips for less reliability. You lose out on the enhanced firmware. And you don't get MouseText either. Forget Double-HiRes Graphics. Forget the 65C02 too.

 

The II and II+ are nostalgic hobby computers and are full of sentimental greatness, make no mistake.

 

The //eP does a nice job of maintaining heritage and capturing all the essence of the II series. It has reduced parts count for better reliability. A 64K/80column card can be had on ebay in the 20 dollar range. Sometimes less. You can still run most all software made way back in 1978.

 

Any tiny minor incompatibilities the //eP presents against the early models is practically null nowadays. And it usually relates to copy protection. Software has either been patched or you can do a pre-boot with Anti-M boot disk. Don't worry about any of it.

 

3 hours ago, Grizaptimus said:

Is is possible to run a IIgs as just a faster //e?  Is is still able to run the older DOS3.3 stuff or is it limited to ProDOS and GS/OS?  A IIgs with an Extended keyboard might scratch the itch.

IIgs can run //e software at a faster speed. It can run DOS 3.2 & Dos 3.3, sure. The IIgs is a split personality machine and has never been nostalgic (for me). Perhaps get a IIgs as a second machine.

 

3 hours ago, Grizaptimus said:

Is there a reason that no //e motherboard replacements exist?  are they just common enough that no one has cared to do it yet?

They're very common. And then there is the matter of the MMU/IOU custom chips. The //e and //eP get their reduced parts count by cramming much of those 86 chips into two custom jobbers. The result is greater reliability and much cooler running machine. The only source as of yet, for those chips, is another donor machine. But they don't really fail often. So no big deal.

 

 

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I'm just going to jump in and also recommend a //e over a ][+ or IIgs. Personally I grew up with an Apple IIc, and while it's an absolutely awesome machine, its portable design severely limits your expansion capabilities. With a //e Enhanced or Platinum, you'll have the entire world of 8-bit Apple II hardware and software open to you, waiting to be enjoyed. (I'd of course recommend buying a Speaker Connector for the added convenience, so you're not limited to full volume 100% of the time, with no way to adjust it.)

 

Whichever machine you choose, you're sure to enjoy it. Apple II = ❤️.

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2 hours ago, Keatah said:

Don't bother with anything other than a //e Platinum, for the reasons stated previously. The II+ is limiting in the types of memory upgrades it takes. It has 86 socketed chips for less reliability. You lose out on the enhanced firmware. And you don't get MouseText either. Forget Double-HiRes Graphics. Forget the 65C02 too.

 

 

The IIe Platinum is difficult to find and getting expensive.  And apart from the numeric keypad it offers nothing functionally over a plain-jane Enhanced IIe.

So if you are looking for the low cost entry with the widest variety of software that will work on it, get an enhanced IIe.  Even an un-enhanced IIe is fine - you can add the enhancement kit (available at reActive Micro) later.

Also, you should consider a IIc.  It's an all-in-one Apple II, has the same compatibility level as a IIe for running software, and has a bunch of stuff already built in-  like 128K RAM, dual serial ports, built in disk drive and built in "smart port" so you can add a mass storage device and floppy emulator (like Big Mess 'o Wires' Floppy Emu).

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1 hour ago, DeathAdderSF said:

I'm just going to jump in and also recommend a //e over a ][+ or IIgs. Personally I grew up with an Apple IIc, and while it's an absolutely awesome machine, its portable design severely limits your expansion capabilities. With a //e Enhanced or Platinum, you'll have the entire world of 8-bit Apple II hardware and software open to you, waiting to be enjoyed. (I'd of course recommend buying a Speaker Connector for the added convenience, so you're not limited to full volume 100% of the time, with no way to adjust it.)

 

Whichever machine you choose, you're sure to enjoy it. Apple II = ❤️.

It doesn't have readily available expansion, but the IIc has enough built into it that 99% of people won't feel the need to "expand".  It has two serial ports, a video port (to which you can connect a VGA scaler) a smart port (to which you can connect another floppy drive, floppy emulator or smart port hard drive), 128K already built in, and ROM0 and above also have a memory expansion port inside to which you can add loads of extra RAM (not that you'd really need it), Z80 compatibility (if you can find one) and a real-time clock like the one in A2Heaven.com's DClock or RAMExpress II+.

 

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5 hours ago, Grizaptimus said:

How does the keyboard on the normal //e compare with the Platinum's?

I don't think I've used a //e since elementary school, so I really can't remember :)

 

1 hour ago, DeathAdderSF said:

(I'd of course recommend buying a Speaker Connector for the added convenience, so you're not limited to full volume 100% of the time, with no way to adjust it.)

I've been thinking of doing something like that, but with an RCA cable, so I can go straight into my TV (which I use in lieu of a monitor).

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1 hour ago, Asaki said:

How does the keyboard on the normal //e compare with the Platinum's?

I don't think I've used a //e since elementary school, so I really can't remember :)

 

 

Actually, the best keyboard of all is the early style keyboard with the white keycap lettering that came on the early un-enhanced IIe.

The next best one is the keyboard on the earlier enhanced IIe with the cream coloured key stems - a carryover of key switches from early II+ machines.

Later keyboards with square key stems, including the one on the IIe Platinum don't have the same nice smooth feel.

I own all three types and can attest for their relative feel and quality.

 

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2 hours ago, Baldrick said:

It doesn't have readily available expansion, but the IIc has enough built into it that 99% of people won't feel the need to "expand".  It has two serial ports, a video port (to which you can connect a VGA scaler) a smart port (to which you can connect another floppy drive, floppy emulator or smart port hard drive), 128K already built in, and ROM0 and above also have a memory expansion port inside to which you can add loads of extra RAM (not that you'd really need it), Z80 compatibility (if you can find one) and a real-time clock like the one in A2Heaven.com's DClock or RAMExpress II+.

 

ROM 0 doesn't support the memory expansion, that started with ROM 3 (and the new logic board that accompanied it). And is easy to identify externally as Apple changed the model number on the sticker of the //c from a2s4000 to a2s4100 when they updated the logic board. ROM 0 mostly just added the Smartport. And even if you get an early ROM 255 without smartport, it's fairly trivial to upgrade the rom. 

 

But otherwise +1 to the suggestion of the //c. Everyone complained about the //c lack of expandability. But I've had one since they launched. And the only thing I ever missed out on due to its lack of expansion was a Mockingboard. There was an external one, but it tended to not work that well. Now days someone out of Hong Kong has designed one that installs inside the //c if you really want mockingboard support.

 

But otherwise I prefer my //c as a daily driver, since it has a smaller footprint than my IIe and everything is just built in. A similar IIe would require two super serial cards, a mouse card, and a Liron or Yellowstone card to compare to the //c.

 

And I agree with the other poster, no need to go for a platinum IIe if you want to go the IIe route. An enhanced IIe gets you the same, except for a numeric keypad. Which unless you are doing some serious data entry or spreadsheet work, you won't miss much. And even an unenhanced IIe is a good option, as it's trivial to upgrade to enhanced. 

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I would recommend against a IIC as your sole II series because of the lack of expansion slots (mitigated somewhat by having some of the popular expansions built-in) and the greater difficulty with using something other than the built-in disk drive as your boot drive. None of those problem are insurmountable, but if you have slightly more space, the IIe series is the more versatile and easier choice.

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7 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Later keyboards with square key stems, including the one on the IIe Platinum don't have the same nice smooth feel.

Yeah, I can't compare, but as far as non-mechanical keyboards go, I was pretty impressed by the Platinum.

For some reason I guess I was expecting something as terrible as my 600XL, but in hindsight, I can see how that wouldn't make much sense.

Certainly much better than any laptop I have, or any USB keyboard I own.

...maybe that's not saying much :)

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Looks like the //e, enhanced //e, //c, platinum //e, are the winning suggestions. With the II and II+ and IIgs not being mentioned much.

 

The IIgs is a weird mix of an arbitrary 16-bit computer and a single-chip Apple //e. Neither side talks to each other. II's firmware is cruder by //e & //c standards. And the II+ was the first "patch" or step-up from the II - although more refined it just lacks the evolutionary features.

 

8 hours ago, Baldrick said:

The IIe Platinum is difficult to find and getting expensive.

Really? I guess.. I have not priced one on ebay in a long while. But it's possible.

8 hours ago, Baldrick said:

 And apart from the numeric keypad it offers nothing functionally over a plain-jane Enhanced IIe.

So if you are looking for the low cost entry with the widest variety of software that will work on it, get an enhanced IIe.  Even an un-enhanced IIe is fine - you can add the enhancement kit (available at reActive Micro) later.

This is true. The firmware checksum is the same. And if you get an un-enhanced //e, you can enjoy the rewards of doing an upgrade! That was a huge deal back in the day, getting new peripherals.. modems, serial cards, clock card, memory, drives, building out a system from the ground, up. Loads fun!

8 hours ago, Baldrick said:

Also, you should consider a IIc.  It's an all-in-one Apple II, has the same compatibility level as a IIe for running software, and has a bunch of stuff already built in-  like 128K RAM, dual serial ports, built in disk drive and built in "smart port" so you can add a mass storage device and floppy emulator (like Big Mess 'o Wires' Floppy Emu).

Note that a smart-port is NOT required for a BMOW Floppy Emu. The standard $20 controller card will work on a //e too. Also a //c can be outfitted with more memory, clock, mockingboard, z-80, all-in-one.

 

And no need to feel locked-in with whatever choice you make.Many enthusiasts often have more than one variety of a system.

 

You also asked about the keyboard. The //eP keyboard is slightly cheaper, IMHO, than the //e. And both are cheaper than the II and II+, notably most II & II+ keyboards have these metal bars that reinforce them so they don't bend as much. The lack of physical support can cause the center keys to need a simple solder reflow if oventhusiastically used, like playing Microsoft Decathlon too much. All that pounding!

 

Should be noted that the //e can accept an optional numeric keypad, typically moving on ebay for $70'ish. It has a connector for it.

 

Having said all that, if keyboard ergonomics are that important to you then you need try one hands-on or get adapters that allow you to use an external one.

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It has been said (and championed by me) that the II series is the closest there is to those single-board micros and trainers of the mid-1970's. It has no1 custom chips, no real video chip - but a discrete video circuit. No sound synthesizer or tone generator. Just a 74LS74 amp'd by a Darlington to click the speaker.

 

1) MMU/IOU are same logic as a II & II+, just condensed into less parts. I bet we'll see CPLD/FPGA replacements in the future if needed. They're rather simple. Remember this is 1977 tech.

 

 

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The IIc+ would also be a good choice, IMO (since I own one). It has all the features of the standard IIc, plus has a Zip Chip built in so you can run software at anything from the normal 1mhz up to 4mhz, which is fast for standard Apple II software, especially games. Granted it has a 3.5 drive built in but you can always add an external 5.25 and just write a simple startup program, that you save to a 3.5 disk, so it will boot the 5.25 drive.

 

If you would choose to go the IIGS route, which I also own, at a minimum get it with 4MB of ram, 2 3.5 drives and 2 5.25 drives. If you can eventually afford it get a CFFA3K, or other card that can let you run disk images instead of the real disks. Also an AppleSqueezer accelerator would be a good thing to be able run it faster the 2.8mhz.

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17 minutes ago, magnusfalkirk said:

The IIc+ would also be a good choice, IMO (since I own one). It has all the features of the standard IIc, plus has a Zip Chip built in so you can run software at anything from the normal 1mhz up to 4mhz, which is fast for standard Apple II software, especially games. Granted it has a 3.5 drive built in but you can always add an external 5.25 and just write a simple startup program, that you save to a 3.5 disk, so it will boot the 5.25 drive.

 

If you would choose to go the IIGS route, which I also own, at a minimum get it with 4MB of ram, 2 3.5 drives and 2 5.25 drives. If you can eventually afford it get a CFFA3K, or other card that can let you run disk images instead of the real disks. Also an AppleSqueezer accelerator would be a good thing to be able run it faster the 2.8mhz.

A 2c+ would indeed be an awesome option.  If you have any leads on one I would be very interested, unfortunately I have been unable to even locate one for sale!

 

In my travels I ran across the Ultrawarp Accelerator and I see that it uses a 65816.  What would that open up?  Could I run prodos16 on a //e with a card like that?  Is there any 16bit software written that could take advantage of it, or does it just act as a accelerated 6502?

 

Speaking of expansion, what would you all say would be the mandatory modern expansions for the modern a2 enthusiast?  I would like to use CP/M.  I'm not sure however if I should get one of the PCPI/Applicard clones or just build a RC2014 system and use the apple as a terminal.

 

5 hours ago, Keatah said:

It has been said (and championed by me) that the II series is the closest there is to those single-board micros and trainers of the mid-1970's. It has no1 custom chips, no real video chip - but a discrete video circuit. No sound synthesizer or tone generator. Just a 74LS74 amp'd by a Darlington to click the speaker.

 

1) MMU/IOU are same logic as a II & II+, just condensed into less parts. I bet we'll see CPLD/FPGA replacements in the future if needed. They're rather simple. Remember this is 1977 tech.

 

 

This way of looking at it interests me and really made me start thinking in another direction.  I may end up get that II+ motherboard kit eventually for that experience!

 

 

Anyway I'm getting really excited about all of this.  I decided to pick up the The New Apple II User's Guide.  I have started cruising ebay, but the prices there are getting up there!  If any of you all have any leads on a good system, I would be most appreciative.

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44 minutes ago, Grizaptimus said:

  

A 2c+ would indeed be an awesome option.  If you have any leads on one I would be very interested, unfortunately I have been unable to even locate one for sale!

 

There's 3 of them for sale on ebay right now. The //c+ always goes for a lot more than a regular //c so you'll pay a premium if you really want one.

apple iic plus for sale: Search Result | eBay

 

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