Checking out Tenth Degree; Atari's cancelled 3D fighting game

[awbacon]

 

Bummer it was cancelled. Maybe wouldn't  have been a hit on the level of SF Rush but still sad

[ColecoGamer]

On 7/11/2022 at 9:17 AM, awbacon said:

 

Bummer it was cancelled. Maybe wouldn't  have been a hit on the level of SF Rush but still sad

I know this opinion won’t be popular, but Atari had a habit of canceling really good games that would have made them money. First, the above fighting game; Primal Rage 2; and Marble Madness 2, just to name a few.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

1 hour ago, ColecoGamer said:

I know this opinion won’t be popular, but Atari had a habit of canceling really good games that would have made them money. First, the above fighting game; Primal Rage 2; and Marble Madness 2, just to name a few.

In the arcade biz, it all comes down to the location test. If it can't consistently make good money there, they sack it. Area 51 and SF Rush sold really, really well, becoming markers for what to look for, so if a concept couldn't make close to that, they also killed it. Sometimes a good game does get tested in a crap location (or some distributor does that to kill something they don't like) but as far as I know Atari had good places for testing back then.

 

I've heard it mentioned from Atari staff before that another thing was that they felt the fighter genre was dead in the late 90s; I think that might have just been their way to say that they just couldn't match the output and quality of the Japanese. That said, arcade fighters pretty much went extinct in the US after Tekken 5, something that's only starting to change recently.

 

 

[GraffitiTavern]

7 hours ago, ColecoGamer said:

I know this opinion won’t be popular, but Atari had a habit of canceling really good games that would have made them money. First, the above fighting game; Primal Rage 2; and Marble Madness 2, just to name a few.

I know distro with full cabinets is expensive but I feel like some of these games since they went to the trouble of developing them they could have at least sold enough conversion kits to make some of the dev costs back

[+x=usr(1536)]

11 hours ago, GraffitiTavern said:

I know distro with full cabinets is expensive but I feel like some of these games since they went to the trouble of developing them they could have at least sold enough conversion kits to make some of the dev costs back

Possibly, but adding to the sunk costs of both development and getting a test machine out on location by having to tool up, find production capacity, schedule that capacity against known-popular games, advertise it, etc. for a conversion kit was likely deemed not worth the effort.  Better to just cut the losses and move on to something (hopefully) profitable.

[MrTrust]

On 9/17/2022 at 6:47 PM, Shaggy the Atarian said:

In the arcade biz, it all comes down to the location test. If it can't consistently make good money there, they sack it. Area 51 and SF Rush sold really, really well, becoming markers for what to look for, so if a concept couldn't make close to that, they also killed it. Sometimes a good game does get tested in a crap location (or some distributor does that to kill something they don't like) but as far as I know Atari had good places for testing back then.

 

They apparently made more money on merchandising for Primal Rage than they did on the game itself.  I can only imagine Midway made more money licensing Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam than they did on the coin-op machines.  By this point, coin-ops were pretty well in decline.  Wouldn't those secondary revenue streams be as much a consideration?  Granted, you probably don't get those streams unless the initial coin-op release is popular, but if I'm running that company at that time, I'm not wanting a hit arcade fighting game so much as I am wanting an arcade game that the critics will write positively about, which would generate buzz for the eventual Playstation version, that we can recoup our costs on, then make some tidy money on two console sequels.

 

Of course, I'm saying that in hindsight, but I'm surprised that this would not be part of their thinking at the time.

[MrMaddog]

There was an over-saturation of fighting games in the 90's, period.  Anytime Atari Games tried something "unique" it gets ignored by the kids who are only interested in Street Fighter & Mortal Kombat.  And when they 'do' a fighting game of their own then the same arcade goers think it's just derivative and play their usual favorites.  So yeah it is Catch-22...

 

Primal Rage did had potiential to be a popular francise in terms of merchandizing, but only if PR2 had came out because that game had the backstory to get others invested in the books, cartoons or whatever.

 

 

[Shaggy the Atarian]

On 9/19/2022 at 11:34 AM, MrTrust said:

 

They apparently made more money on merchandising for Primal Rage than they did on the game itself.  I can only imagine Midway made more money licensing Mortal Kombat and NBA Jam than they did on the coin-op machines.  By this point, coin-ops were pretty well in decline.  Wouldn't those secondary revenue streams be as much a consideration?  Granted, you probably don't get those streams unless the initial coin-op release is popular, but if I'm running that company at that time, I'm not wanting a hit arcade fighting game so much as I am wanting an arcade game that the critics will write positively about, which would generate buzz for the eventual Playstation version, that we can recoup our costs on, then make some tidy money on two console sequels.

 

 

That's what I've heard about PR although never heard how much was made in licensing MK & NBA Jam out - certainly more on the MK side thanks to stuff like action figures and the film. But as the story has been told, NBA Jam cabs made something crazy like $1B in quarters back then. Not sure how they calculated that exactly but Midway probably only made some nice cash from the ports on the side. Doubt they could have made much otherwise since that'd all go to the NBA and the player's association.

 

PR2 might have been able to build on what PR did for toys but ultimately they had to prove that the arcade game could sell first and it seems that didn't happen. The other issue is that Atari was sold to Midway in April '96, about the time that PR2 was in development and probably getting some testing. It's possible that PR2 was testing well enough for Atari's tastes, but not the new Midway/Williams owners. But apart from that in either company, licensing possibilities would be a secondary consideration at best; The games have to prove themselves out in the real world otherwise no dice. Since Area 51 was selling like crazy and SF Rush was doing well at that time, Atari corporate was likely more thinking about "how do we get more of this?," which is why we got games like Maximum Force and then a bunch of racing games. It also helped that A51 was dirt cheap to produce while it probably cost a ton to be trying out risky fighters.

 

(I do wish that Atari would've tried out some more beat 'em ups than just Guardians of the Hood though. Oh well)

 

Quote

Of course, I'm saying that in hindsight, but I'm surprised that this would not be part of their thinking at the time.

 

You do need that initial release to drive kids crazy and demand a home port but at a certain point in the 90s (I'd say '96 and after) if you weren't Capcom or Namco (SNK in Latin America and Japan), you were mostly ignored. After UMK3, Midway couldn't really find another fighter hit and pretty much everyone else was flailing - which gave us top cringe like Tattoo Assassins at least. Atari realized this, particularly because they had tried other fighters too and nothing was passing tests - Cyber Storm & Vicious Circle. I think after PR2 and Tenth Degree flopped, then Midway was seeing poor sales on War Gods and their game Bio Freaks failed testing, they just figured "eh, lets focus on less risky racers/shooters."

 

 

[MrTrust]

9 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

But as the story has been told, NBA Jam cabs made something crazy like $1B in quarters back then. Not sure how they calculated that exactly but Midway probably only made some nice cash from the ports on the side.

 

According to Wikipedia, it earned more in quarters in '93 than Jurassic Park grossed.  If that's true, that's kind of mind-blowing, but it makes me wonder about how the that would be disbursed.  Obviously the proprietor of the arcade/pizza joint/grocery store/whatever is going to get a rake of that money, and at least from what I saw when I was a kid, the machines were usually owned by our local coin machine company (still in business, thank God), so I assume they also got a rake.  Now, what I wonder is would the coin machine company own those machines outright, or would they leasing them somehow from the manufacturer, in which case I would expect Midway would have eventually gotten a cut as well.  I guess I never thought that much about the economics of arcade games, but looking at a number like $1B, the idea that a company like Midway didn't find a way to wet their beaks off of that seems wrong.

 

9 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

You do need that initial release to drive kids crazy and demand a home port but at a certain point in the 90s (I'd say '96 and after) if you weren't Capcom or Namco (SNK in Latin America and Japan), you were mostly ignored.

 

Maybe this is too clever by half, but I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of an arcade manufacturer in the 90s.  Industry is visibly in decline, at least as far as conventional video games are concerned.  Home consoles have nearly closed the hardware gap for good.  I'm thinking about a game like Tekken which, while I take it that it did do well in the arcades, was not a ubiquitous fixture like an SFII or an A:51, but it is very much celebrated for its gameplay, and becomes a huge hit on home consoles and is still going as far as I can tell.

 

So, I'm thinking if we have to start adopting a different model, accept that the coin-op might be a loss leader, release it in select markets and try to get Gamepro and EGM and so on to write about it positively, get them enthusiastic about the home port, and then make the money back off of that.  Of course, critical acclaim might not be enough to drive the console sales if the arcade release didn't perform, but pretty soon, none of these things are going to be making any money anyway, so why not just switch over to little kid casino machines now?

 

But then again, I still see A:51 machines out in the wild from time to time, so what do I know?  What a weird game to be such a hit.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

On 9/21/2022 at 6:21 AM, MrTrust said:

 

According to Wikipedia, it earned more in quarters in '93 than Jurassic Park grossed.  If that's true, that's kind of mind-blowing, but it makes me wonder about how the that would be disbursed.  Obviously the proprietor of the arcade/pizza joint/grocery store/whatever is going to get a rake of that money, and at least from what I saw when I was a kid, the machines were usually owned by our local coin machine company (still in business, thank God), so I assume they also got a rake.  Now, what I wonder is would the coin machine company own those machines outright, or would they leasing them somehow from the manufacturer, in which case I would expect Midway would have eventually gotten a cut as well.  I guess I never thought that much about the economics of arcade games, but looking at a number like $1B, the idea that a company like Midway didn't find a way to wet their beaks off of that seems wrong.

This depends - you have two types of arcade operators - ones that do what you mention (buying the equipment then installing it inside of a businees where the main thrust is not an arcade) then ops like myself where we own and operate the equipment in our business. Operators have generally been notorious for keeping their earnings secret however, manufacturers would collect anonymous earnings data. Midway was pretty good about that BITD but there's always going to be a lot of cabs you miss (particularly those that were blind shipments). It's likely that the earnings are an averaged estimate based upon how many total game cabinets they sold vs. the average take, so the real number could be off by a few million, but either way it still did well. Midway however only made the money from selling the machine, none of the on-site earnings went back to them, unless they were operating some cabs of their own out in Chicago (which I've never heard of them doing and I've talked with guys like Eugene Jarvis and George Petro many times. They only ever talk about tests or in-dev stories if you ask them about it).

 

Quote

Maybe this is too clever by half, but I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of an arcade manufacturer in the 90s.  Industry is visibly in decline, at least as far as conventional video games are concerned.  Home consoles have nearly closed the hardware gap for good.  I'm thinking about a game like Tekken which, while I take it that it did do well in the arcades, was not a ubiquitous fixture like an SFII or an A:51, but it is very much celebrated for its gameplay, and becomes a huge hit on home consoles and is still going as far as I can tell.

 

So, I'm thinking if we have to start adopting a different model, accept that the coin-op might be a loss leader, release it in select markets and try to get Gamepro and EGM and so on to write about it positively, get them enthusiastic about the home port, and then make the money back off of that.  Of course, critical acclaim might not be enough to drive the console sales if the arcade release didn't perform, but pretty soon, none of these things are going to be making any money anyway, so why not just switch over to little kid casino machines now?

 

 

After 1995 and you had the likes of the PSX and Saturn making ports arcade perfect or close, it did start to change things - mainly when it came to joystick games. Porting such a game over to a console doesn't really lose much in the experience, apart from the social atmosphere arcades offered; This is why a lot of companies started focusing on things that consoles couldn't do well or at all from a hardware perspective - steering wheels & gas pedals or guns or dance pads. Unfortunately, the siren call of console ports became so strong that it really ended up hurting their arcade sales, which is why so many companies folded their US arcade divisions. Fighting games in particular brought in a "hardcore gamer" type crowd but that segment of the market gravitated towards consoles, so when they left arcades, the industry had to shift towards more casual stuff - or the redemption crap that you mention. Unfortunately in my own experience, ports of joystick games = earnings disaster; Such ports hurt on stuff like driving games too, but to a lesser degree. To toot my own horn, I did discuss this in detail the other day on a livestream

 

 

On games like Area 51, us arcade ops love games like that because they pay themselves off many times over and that helps keep the doors open, although in my case it's brand new games which get the most play to pay the bills. Retro games, for the most part, are just filler (follow-up on that video here).

 

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But then again, I still see A:51 machines out in the wild from time to time, so what do I know?  What a weird game to be such a hit.

 

By what I've gathered from talking with ex-Atari staff and reading other interviews, I think Atari was caught off guard by that too but were happy to finally find a hit. Most Atari Games titles between Gauntlet and A51 were not super sellers. The only game to even crack 5000 sold in that time was the dismal PitFighter.

 

I used to have an A51 but it was in bad condition so I sold it off, but at one of my locations the locals have frequently asked for that game in particular so I wouldn't mind getting a nice one one of these days. I'd also pounce on an A51 4k remaster arcade game (or CarnEvil for that matter - CarnEvil still earns like crazy, when it works). Interestingly enough, Area 51: Site 4 didn't do nearly as well as the original but I think that's because it didn't provide the straightforward rail shooter that it's predecessor did. Had they perhaps focused a little more on games like A51 that just looked better, maybe that would have been enough to keep them going but they placed their bets more on drivers.