Which game is shown in this video snippet?

[Irgendwer]

Hi,

 

just saw a video on YT where I cannot identify a game shown for 3 seconds, starting at 0:59:

 

 

(The one with the yellowish floor and the pseudo 3D effect.)

 

Can anyone here name it?

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Irgendwer

[Pixelboy]

Interesting. That TV set was probably playing a pre-recorded video of that Smurf racing game "Papa Smurf's Treasure Hunt" which turned out to be one of Coleco's vaporware title. So perhaps a prototype of this game exists somewhere...

 

 

[Captain Cozmos]

Looks like Smurf driving something or other

Edited August 3, 2022 by Captain Cozmos

[else]

Wow, good catch!  I would agree -- looks like Papa Smurf's Treasure Hunt.  Guess this means it wasn't completely vaporware (though maybe not playable?)!

[else]

Anyone have a link to the source video from where this clip was taken?

Edited August 3, 2022 by else

[TPR]

I have just mentioned your post in the ColecoVision Lunatics group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/ColecovisionLunatics/posts/3201584680101110/

 

As we do have people who worked in game design for Coleco in that group and might be able to answer the question.  If there is any response identifying the game, I'll post about it here as well. 

[Pixelboy]

1 hour ago, TPR said:

As we do have people who worked in game design for Coleco in that group and might be able to answer the question.  If there is any response identifying the game, I'll post about it here as well. 

Hopefully we'll get confirmation of some kind. 

 

My expectation is what we see in the YouTube video is the TV being connected to a hidden VCR, and the footage we see on the TV is a running demo of "Papa Smurf Treasure Hunt". The reason I say it's a demo is because no one is playing it, and we see the entire screen being updated repeatedly as the Smurf drives forward into the scenery. This kind of full-screen update is rather hard to do for the ColecoVision's video processor, as you have to blast 768 bytes of tile data into the name table in VRAM as quickly as possible on each refresh cycle, which leaves very little processing time for any game logic, unless it's done every two refresh frames. Also, I'm not seeing any score, or any enemies on the road. This is consistent with a demo that's just there to wow people with the winding road full-screen animation.

 

[TPR]

Just a slight update... although nothing confirmed...

[else]

8 minutes ago, Pixelboy said:

Hopefully we'll get confirmation of some kind. 

 

My expectation is what we see in the YouTube video is the TV being connected to a hidden VCR, and the footage we see on the TV is a running demo of "Papa Smurf Treasure Hunt". The reason I say it's a demo is because no one is playing it, and we see the entire screen being updated repeatedly as the Smurf drives forward into the scenery. This kind of full-screen update is rather hard to do for the ColecoVision's video processor, as you have to blast 768 bytes of tile data into the name table in VRAM as quickly as possible on each refresh cycle, which leaves very little processing time for any game logic, unless it's done every two refresh frames. Also, I'm not seeing any score, or any enemies on the road. This is consistent with a demo that's just there to wow people with the winding road full-screen animation.

 

 

Actually, as I'm sure you know, there's room for two Name Tables in the TMS9928 so you can implement double buffering between them.  Then you only have to update the name Name Table Base Address register on the vertical blank with a single write, alternating between the two.  This way, the 768 bytes of the name table can be written at any time to the non-visible table -- no need to do it quickly on the vertical blank.  When you're done writing to it, set a "flip" flag for you interrupt handler to see on the vertical blank, and use it to flip to the other table.

 

Anyhow, there's a bunch of Coleco games that update the entire screen (or nearly the entire screen).  Cosmic Avenger, Zaxxon, Turbo, Subroc, Destructor, Buck Rogers, Front Line, etc.

[Pixelboy]

9 minutes ago, else said:

Actually, as I'm sure you know, there's room for two Name Tables in the TMS9928 so you can implement double buffering between them.  Then you only have to update the name Name Table Base Address register on the vertical blank with a single write, alternating between the two.  This way, the 768 bytes of the name table can be written at any time to the non-visible table -- no need to do it quickly on the vertical blank.  When you're done writing to it, set a "flip" flag for you interrupt handler to see on the vertical blank, and use it to flip to the other table.

Yeah, I'm aware of this, but there's visibly more than two screens in that "winding road" animation sequence. So you still have to update the name table(s) in a sustained manner, and updating any 768 consecutive bytes in VRAM (presumably with raw ROM data) takes the same time, whether it's visible or non-visible. The more sensible solution is running at 30fps (i.e. each screen refresh being displayed for two refresh cycles, which gives you enough time to update VRAM like you want to).

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Pixelboy

[else]

1 minute ago, Pixelboy said:

Yeah, I'm aware of this, but there's visibly more than two screens in that "winding road" animation sequence. So you still have to update the name table(s) in a sustained manner, and updating any 768 consecutive bytes in VRAM (presumably with raw ROM data) takes the same time, whether it's visible or non-visible. The more sensible solution is running at 30fps (i.e. each screen refresh being displayed for two refresh cycles, which gives you enough time to update VRAM like you want to).

 

 

Agreed that the 768 bytes writes take the same amount of time (of course).  Was just pointing out that the timing of those 768 byte writes isn't as critical as you seemed to imply.  If you're game's frame rate is variable, double buffering eliminates the possibility of screen tearing if your game experiences slowdown...you'll never show a partially drawn screen.

[retroillucid]

Yeah, probably just a VCR under the booth 
I saw the same with Dracula and Tunnels & Trolls 


Here's a recreational mockup I did a few years ago: 
 

[TPR]

Yep, that would be my guess, too. I mean, this was a common thing to do at CES even in the years I worked in the industry so I would imagine the same would be happening then.  And it absolutely does look like Papa Smurf's Treasure Hunt.  A game that I wish would have come out... but I'm not too bothered by the fact that it didn't... 

[else]

From what I can tell, there seems to be 15 frames of the "game" shown, but it repeats after 10 frames.

 

[Captain Cozmos]

As much as the graphic is awesome what would the game have been?
 

Driving?

Or was this just a cut scene?
I honestly think this was a mock up but in the short time I have been disassembling these games I have become intimate with the Coleco environment.
So, back then I do not think anything would have been that elaborate but with the tools we have now It might be not only doable but an entertaining game.

 

Everything I do I am ambitious with what is in my mind but when I get down to doing it I come back to reality.

 

[Pixelboy]

1 hour ago, Captain Cozmos said:

As much as the graphic is awesome what would the game have been?
 

Driving?

Or was this just a cut scene?
I honestly think this was a mock up but in the short time I have been disassembling these games I have become intimate with the Coleco environment.
So, back then I do not think anything would have been that elaborate but with the tools we have now It might be not only doable but an entertaining game.

 

Everything I do I am ambitious with what is in my mind but when I get down to doing it I come back to reality.

This was probably a demo, and it probably filled up a large chunk of the available 32K ROM with graphic data. Knowing this, the programmer of this demo probably didn't even expect to make an actual game out of this, unless it was to be upgraded to be an ADAM Super Game. Then everything would have been possible for this type of game.

 

Cut scenes were a rarity in those times, so the driving portion was probably an action sequence that separated the multiple locations of the game where "Papa Smurf's treasures" could be found. I can say this by looking at the promotional flyer image, where a white door/opening can be seen in one of the trees.

 

[Captain Cozmos]

37 minutes ago, Pixelboy said:

This was probably a demo, and it probably filled up a large chunk of the available 32K ROM with graphic data. Knowing this, the programmer of this demo probably didn't even expect to make an actual game out of this, unless it was to be upgraded to be an ADAM Super Game. Then everything would have been possible for this type of game.

 

Cut scenes were a rarity in those times, so the driving portion was probably an action sequence that separated the multiple locations of the game where "Papa Smurf's treasures" could be found. I can say this by looking at the promotional flyer image, where a white door/opening can be seen in one of the trees.

 

So I am wondering now why can not anyone make this game?
From what I have always thought, please correct me, that you can make a game with a likeness but not make money off of it.
 

There are a lot of fan made games using iconic characters and games in the Fred Fish collection for the Amiga.  I would expect that NINTENDO, PEYO or whomever do not want to waste time and resources in the courts enforcing a copywrite when there is no money being made for them to take.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Captain Cozmos

[else]

As PixelBoy alluded to, the Colecovision is pretty underpowered for something as elaborate as shown in the flyer and this demo -- even with modern tools.  Something like Turbo or Dukes of Hazzard is possible because the roads are straight and the scenery stays to the sides.  But the processor just doesn't have enough bandwidth to draw a lot of large objects (trees, roads, grass, etc) to the background and still maintain a decent frame rate.

 

Of course it could be done if all the frames are pre-drawn and stored in rom.  This would take a lot of rom, but could be done with modern bank-switching techniques.  This is essentially what the demo is doing, presumably.  It gives the illusion of many large objects, but is really just a slide show, much like Dragon's Lair....

Edited August 4, 2022 by else

[Captain Cozmos]

40 minutes ago, else said:

As PixelBoy alluded to, the Colecovision is pretty underpowered for something as elaborate as shown in the flyer and this demo -- even with modern tools.  Something like Turbo or Dukes of Hazzard is possible because the roads are straight and the scenery stays to the sides.  But the processor just doesn't have enough bandwidth to draw a lot of large objects (trees, roads, grass, etc) to the background and still maintain a decent frame rate.

 

Of course it could be done if all the frames are pre-drawn and stored in rom.  This would take a lot of rom, but could be done with modern bank-switching techniques.  This is essentially what the demo is doing, presumably.  It gives the illusion of many large objects, but is really just a slide show, much like Dragon's Lair....

Now my business sided brain would respond with this.

 

Create a demo like the one above showing off the power of the system without revealing that the systems resources were pushed to the maximum.

Then tell everyone that this is planned because we own the Smurf license.

After the contracts are signed put it on the back burner.

 

We are talking about the ruthless 80's here.

I was born at the end of the 60's, raised during the 70's and became aware of my surroundings during the 80's.

The 80's were the best and worst times of my entire life.

Corporate greed may have been around but the 80's took it to the next level.

[NIAD]

On 8/3/2022 at 7:10 PM, Captain Cozmos said:

There are a lot of fan made games using iconic characters and games in the Fred Fish collection for the Amiga.  I would expect that NINTENDO, PEYO or whomever do not want to waste time and resources in the courts enforcing a copywrite when there is no money being made for them to take.

PEYO very actively enforces the Smurf franchise as can be attested to by a CV Homebrew programmer.

[NIAD]

Another CES pic of a ColecoVision display area with Tunnels & Trolls and Dracula.

 

[NIAD]

Not to inject everyone's favorite computer system into the conversation, but at the 11:00 mark while talking about the Donkey Kong Super Game version for the ADAM Computer, another prototype variation of the Memory Console is shown.

 

[Captain Cozmos]

I would love to disassemble these games and reassemble them will all the levels like the Pie Factory or that crusher thing for DK Jr.

I know Venture is not complete.
Cosmic Avenger does not look like the arcade at all and just repeats.

Space level for Time Pilot

Finish Gorf....

I played the crap out of Cosmic Avenger back in the day.
Hey, Bally's Aladdin's Castle machines would take smashed pennies instead of tokens.  That is 25 games to a quarter.

[Captain Cozmos]

44 minutes ago, NIAD said:

PEYO very actively enforces the Smurf franchise as can be attested to by a CV Homebrew programmer.

Was he SELLING IT?

When you add a box, instruction manual and put it in a cartridge then someone is making money.
I can also attest that I have yet to see that rom free anywhere just like the Star Wars Hoth Game that came out for the Atari 2600 first.
I seen on Ebay the Pink Panther game yet where is that free rom?  That was no Demo prototype.  Donkey Kong Arcade?
So shenanigans are happening.

I have an idea for a Hong Kong Phooey game but now I am being turned off because of the threat of being sued.
So where is the fine line?  If you are not profiting from it is that not fair use?

[zaphro72]

8 hours ago, Captain Cozmos said:

Was he SELLING IT?

When you add a box, instruction manual and put it in a cartridge then someone is making money.
I can also attest that I have yet to see that rom free anywhere just like the Star Wars Hoth Game that came out for the Atari 2600 first.
I seen on Ebay the Pink Panther game yet where is that free rom?  That was no Demo prototype.  Donkey Kong Arcade?
So shenanigans are happening.

I have an idea for a Hong Kong Phooey game but now I am being turned off because of the threat of being sued.
So where is the fine line?  If you are not profiting from it is that not fair use?

There are many examples of Nintendo hitting fan made games with legal threats and copyright actions. The Big N’s lawyers protect their IP when it goes to actual games very vigorously.