1st Series Atari XP ROM Discussion: Aquaventure, Saboteur, Yars' Return

[Mockduck]

Figured it was worth a breakout discussion maybe. Aquaventure looks and plays great to me, not actually all that familiar with the other two, although I did finally score a boxed copy of Saboteur this summer. These are pretty clearly not the same as in the Atari Vault Volume 2, but some of the specifics will require me looking at side by sides I think. What have you noticed, and what should everyone else know about these releases? 

 

Seems kinda nice that those who didn't buy the $50-$150 physical releases can get the roms for $2.99 each, right? Am I crazy that I want menu options for Aquaventure even if it didn't exist on the actual cart so would require additional development work? Honestly, I'd pay $10 for a full on Aquaventure feature rich game with menus, history, button remapping, achievements, etc. in a heartbeat. Saboteur seems confusing, but I haven't played it much yet. Yars' Return is...not for me I think.

[Gunther]

Please do a video review for these games'.

It would be great to hear your opinions.

A side-by-side comparison to the prototypes' would be fantastic.

[Mockduck]

Copying over some info from the Discord I put together today:

I've now spent about 45 minutes comparing the three versions of Aquaventure and it unveiled some interesting results! There are in fact some differences between the three versions, with the new ROM probably being the best of the three with one interesting caveat.

ROM:

- Best sounding of the three, audio is much more balanced than in Vault 2.

- Looks crisp and plays great.

- Plays faster than the Antstream version, same speed as Vault 2.

- Has deeper darker colors which can actually be a problem in that it makes it hard to see your own character. Originally I thought this was new to the ROM but now that I have compared Vault 2 is the same color scheme.

(For all three image is of the first immediate screen when starting the game, for comparison reasons that will become apparent.)

Vault 2:

- The audio is much harsher sounding, almost overmodulated. Once you compare it to the new ROM you really appreciate how much better sounding the ROM is. Very crunchy audio.

- Has the advantage of mappable controls.

- Has a manual explaining its history and controls!

- Deeper weirder color scheme than the ROM? Didn't so much feel like it when playing but the first screen is consistently a different color, so isn't the same, but looks generally similar when playing to the ROM.

Antstream:

Interesting:

- It looks and plays different!

- Color scheme is washed out, and a totally different set of colors and contrast. In some ways worse, but better for readability while playing actually.

- Sound is quite good, seemed similar to the ROM.

- Has working leaderboards!

- The gameplay is SLOWER than the ROM and Vault 2. Perhaps a 50hz PAL thing? Could the PAL thing also explain the colors? There wasn't a PAL release was there? It was just a prototype? Confusing.

 

So ultimately the game looks and plays great as a ROM, and is probably worth the $3 if you are an Aquaventure fan. You get better gameplay than on Antstream and better sound than in Vault 2. However, Vault 2 has the mappable controls if that is what you need, and Antstream has the online leaderboards.

Edited August 28, 2022 by Mockduck

[Gunther]

Do Yars' Returns next, as it has clearly received the most tweaks for the ATARI XP/VCS release.

 

It's strange ATARI hasn't pointed these changes out in their promotional material.

[rennervision]

My Yars' Return arrived today and... it won't play.  Tried it in both my 2600 and 7800.  Curious if anyone else has a problem?  (To add insult to injury, the box has a dent in it from what seems like it was shrink wrapped too tight.)

Edited September 3, 2022 by rennervision

[Gunther]

P.C.B is the wrong way around - Stoh!

 

The limited editions have turned out fine.

 

This video also shows that the games have been updated.

 

I'm sure ATARI will rectify the standard editions.

 

[Mockduck]

Here's my look at Aquaventure the ROM and cart (that doesn't work): 
 

 

[rennervision]

17 hours ago, Gunther said:

P.C.B is the wrong way around - Stoh!

 

The limited editions have turned out fine.

 

This video also shows that the games have been updated.

 

I'm sure ATARI will rectify the standard editions.

 

Thanks for the heads up on the SEs.  Also - this is the first time I didn't see Jon toss a manual.

[+swlovinist]

Just wanted to post my video here showing all three games unboxed.   Mockduck did a great job covering the rom variations and say in the video.   

 

 

[Mockduck]

I loved this video! The demonstration about how to open the cart was super useful. I was too afraid to pry my cart open prior to seeing this video, so ended up putting back on the screw and label, but I'll do it again depending on what XP does for a fix.

[+SabertoothRetro]

Just a note that the XP version of Yars' Return and the ROM in the VCS store are different.   The XP version has the following improvements that do not appear in the VCS ROM. 

 

• Improved would be the Shield graphic. The Shield is now a solid graphic instead of being interlaced as before.
• Title screen Game selection names instead of game selection numbers.
• The Easter Egg was also changed.
• Various bug fixes

[Mockduck]

16 hours ago, SabertoothRetro said:

Just a note that the XP version of Yars' Return and the ROM in the VCS store are different.   The XP version has the following improvements that do not appear in the VCS ROM. 

 

• Improved would be the Shield graphic. The Shield is now a solid graphic instead of being interlaced as before.
• Title screen Game selection names instead of game selection numbers.
• The Easter Egg was also changed.
• Various bug fixes

Good to know! I have had some difficulty figuring out what the differences are between the Saboteur ROM and the AtariAge cart release I have, I can't really tell a difference. I also couldn't tell anything different between the Yars ROM and the Vault 2 ROM.

[THX-1138]

There is no difference between the 'ROM' and the Vault 2 version.  Any perceived differences in sound or graphics are purely because of the different emulators used.  The Vault uses a built-in emulator called Focal and any 'ROM' downloaded on the VCS is played through Stella.

Attached is the Vault 2 Aquaventure ROM file playing directly in Stella.

[Mockduck]

2 hours ago, THX-1138 said:

There is no difference between the 'ROM' and the Vault 2 version.  Any perceived differences in sound or graphics are purely because of the different emulators used.  The Vault uses a built-in emulator called Focal and any 'ROM' downloaded on the VCS is played through Stella.

Attached is the Vault 2 Aquaventure ROM file playing directly in Stella.

You can definitely hear a sound difference, but good to know it is happening at the emulation level rather than the ROM itself. 

[Gunther]

It seems that ATARI has just slapped the Vault 2 games on the VCS.

I think people should complain about this, because it makes no sense to include a digital-download for a different version of the game.

 

As far as enhancements, Yars' Return os the only one that I know for sure has been updated.

Aquaventure may have been, as ATARI spent a lot of time looking for the original developer, but nothing has been publically stated by ATARI. 

ATARI haven't publically stated that Saboteur has received any updates either.

 

As cool as it is to see the limited-edition unboxing videos, it would be great to see a proper review of these games.

 

 

 

[+SabertoothRetro]

Saboteur appears to be a different ROM than is in the Vault. The third screen is different from the Vault version of the ROM. I'll take some game capture footage later this week to demonstrate.

 

Yars' Return is different on the cart with the enhancements made by Dennis Debro.  The VCS version should absolutely be updated.

 

 

 

 

[alex_79]

There are 5 different known roms of Saboteur:
Scroll down on the Atariprotos page about the game, then you can click on the dates of the various versions to see a list of differences, complete with screenshots.

All the roms can be easily found, e.g. in the Atarimania roms collection.

Apart for "Yar's Return", (as Debro worked on it already to fix the original FB2 version, and still had an unreleased version with a few more bugfixes), it's highly unlikely that the other games have been updated in any ways for the release.

 

As stated, differences in sound, colors and even speed are likely the result of using different emulators (Note that e.g. accurate sound emulation is something achieved relatively recently in 2600 emulators and you find it in up to date versions of Stella, 6502.ts and Gopher2600. Older, or less accurate emulators will sound notably different).

 

The only way to unequivocally determine if they're been updated or not is to dump the games from the new carts and do a binary comparison with the roms already known.

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by alex_79

[Gunther]

1 hour ago, alex_79 said:

There are 5 different known roms of Saboteur:
Scroll down on the Atariprotos page about the game, then you can click on the dates of the various versions to see a list of differences, complete with screenshots.

All the roms can be easily found, e.g. in the Atarimania roms collection.

Apart for "Yar's Return", (as Debro worked on it already to fix the original FB2 version, and still had an unreleased version with a few more bugfixes), it's highly unlikely that the other games have been updated in any ways for the release.

 

As stated, differences in sound, colors and even speed are likely the result of using different emulators (Note that e.g. accurate sound emulation is something achieved relatively recently in 2600 emulators and you find it in up to date versions of Stella, 6502.ts and Gopher2600. Older, or less accurate emulators will sound notably different).

 

The only way to unequivocally determine if they're been updated or not is to dump the games from the new carts and do a binary comparison with the roms already known.

 

Dennis debro's updates are literally on the ATARI XP website blog in an interview he did with them. It's been posted on these forums mutliple times, and can be found on his Twitter account. These were changes for the ATARI XP version.

 

According to Sabertooth, who has actually played the limited edition of Saboteur, has noted differences between the XP version and the rom.

 

Aquaventure, unless someone does a review of the ATARI XP cart, has not had any changes mentioned.

 

Lets wait for reviews by people that have actually played them...

[Gunther]

https://twitter.com/atari/status/1484314980212097027?s=20&t=npr14oU64H1OupgsrAZIrw

 

information regarding Dennis Debro's work on the ATARI XP version of Yars' Return.

This details the changes he has made.

 

Edited September 15, 2022 by Gunther

[Gunther]

https://twitter.com/atari/status/1484314980212097027?s=20&t=npr14oU64H1OupgsrAZIrw

 

A link to Dennis Debro's interview with ATARI regarding the changes he made to the ATARI XP version.

Edited September 15, 2022 by Gunther

[alex_79]

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

Dennis debro's updates are literally on the ATARI XP website blog in an interview he did with them. It's been posted on these forums mutliple times, and can be found on his Twitter account. These were changes for the ATARI XP version.

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

https://twitter.com/atari/status/1484314980212097027?s=20&t=npr14oU64H1OupgsrAZIrw

 

information regarding Dennis Debro's work on the ATARI XP version of Yars' Return.

This details the changes he has made.

 

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

https://twitter.com/atari/status/1484314980212097027?s=20&t=npr14oU64H1OupgsrAZIrw

 

A link to Dennis Debro's interview with ATARI regarding the changes he made to the ATARI XP version.

I'm aware of that. in fact I specifically wrote Apart from "Yar's Return".

 

 

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

According to Sabertooth, who has actually played the limited edition of Saboteur, has noted differences between the XP version and the rom.

Yes, I got that too. What I'm saying is that there are already 5 different known versions of Saboteur, and so the Atari XP might be a different rom, but not necessarily a new one. That's why I provided the links to detailed descriptions of the various versions.

 

 

1 hour ago, Gunther said:

Aquaventure, unless someone does a review of the ATARI XP cart, has not had any changes mentioned.

 

Lets wait for reviews by people that have actually played them...

 

Just playing the game doesn't ensure to spot potential changes, especially if they're minor, or only show up in corner cases. And comparing a game played on different hardware or using different emulators is deceiving, as explained in an earlier post.

A dump of the rom from the cart and a binary comparison is the ONLY 100% reliable way to confirm if the code has been altered or not. No way around it.

 

[Mockduck]

So does anyone here have both the Saboteur Limited Edition cart AND the VCS ROM, and if so can you spot any differences? I just have the Atari Age release, and as far as I can tell it looks exactly like the AtariOS ROM, but is clearly different then the version in Vault 2 in several obvious ways. 

[+SabertoothRetro]

13 hours ago, Mockduck said:

So does anyone here have both the Saboteur Limited Edition cart AND the VCS ROM, and if so can you spot any differences? I just have the Atari Age release, and as far as I can tell it looks exactly like the AtariOS ROM, but is clearly different then the version in Vault 2 in several obvious ways. 

I have the AA cart, the LE cart and the VCS rom. Will do some capture tomorrow for comparison.

[+SabertoothRetro]

So I compared the four different versions of Saboteur head-to-head and cross-referenced against the information on AtariProtos.com.    It looks like the version on the Atari VCS Vault Vol 2 is the 9/2/1983 version of the ROM.  The version in the Atari VCS store appears to be the final build and is the same as the XP LE cart and the cart in the AA store. 

[Mockduck]

Imprisoned for a crime it didn't commit! Here's a look Saboteur on the Atari VCS. I did not purchase either the Standard of Limited Edition of this one, only Aquaventure, so I can't speak to how the LE cart plays.