dye - Heritage Edition

[Irgendwer]

After ABBUC made the 2022 contest entries digitally available for members, here a central thread for discussions and questions regarding my entry "dye - Heritage Edition".

At the end of the event, I will publish the game also for everyone here.

 

Have fun playing more than 40 levels of world heritage sites and hours of solving puzzles.

 

[darwinmac]

@Irgendwer - Would it be possible to make a version, when it is released to non-ABBUC members, that can switch the option from the SNACK adapter to either the joystick or keyboard option?

 

Unfortunately, for some reason, when dye-HE is run on the MiST 8-bit core, it incorrectly detects a SNACK adapter and I cannot change the option to one of the other options. 
 

This does not happen on my XEGS. There, it lets me select either the joystick or keyboard options. I do need to check the keyboard option further. The WASD keys were not moving the cursor as I expected them to do. 
 

Bob C

[Irgendwer]

5 hours ago, darwinmac said:

Unfortunately, for some reason, when dye-HE is run on the MiST 8-bit core, it incorrectly detects a SNACK adapter and I cannot change the option to one of the other options.

 

That's interesting. Of course I could change the detection logic to be overruled on non-compatible hardware, but a fix for the MiST-A8 core seems to be a good idea, too.

I don't have access to a MiST, but could you please enter the following line in BASIC and report the output (without anything attached to the port):

 

? STICK(0), STRIG(0), PADDLE(0), PADDLE(1)

 

There is no keyboard switch in dye.

Keyboard input is also active in joystick mode. You can switch in the main menu between joystick and CX77 Touch Tablet/CMI08 (if SNACK in enhanced mode isn't auto-detected).

Edited September 6, 2022 by Irgendwer

[darwinmac]

@Irgendwer - These are the values I receive when typing in your BASIC command (without anything attached to either MiST DB9 port):

STICK(0) - 15

STRIG(0) - 1

PADDLE(0) - 111

PADDLE(1) - 111

 

It could also be in the firmware since there were some recent changes made to improve paddle handling. While it would be nice to find out why the SNACK auto-handling is not working, I am hoping the detection can be changed so I can select another input method if the SNACK adapter is incorrectly detected.

 

Right now, I still have my XEGS for active 8-bit use. When that eventually dies, the MiST is my long-term backup (since I do not have soldering skills to fix the XEGS if it breaks).

 

Bob C

[Irgendwer]

2 hours ago, darwinmac said:

PADDLE(0) - 111

PADDLE(1) - 111

Those should be 228 if no device is attached to the port and the origin of the problem!

Did you manage to use the keyboard in joystick mode?

 

Edit: I wonder if paddles work on that port anyway?

Edited September 6, 2022 by Irgendwer

[darwinmac]

@Irgendwer - No, the paddles do not work in the DB9 ports. You have to use one of the USB ports and change Swap Joysticks to Yes in order to use paddles with the MiST 8-bit core. From what I understand, there is no analog input from the DB9 ports when using the MiST. 

 

I cannot get to the joystick mode at all using the MiST. If I try to press the Option key, dye never changes the input method from the SNACK adapter. 
 

Bob C

[Irgendwer]

18 hours ago, darwinmac said:

This does not happen on my XEGS. There, it lets me select either the joystick or keyboard options. I do need to check the keyboard option further. The WASD keys were not moving the cursor as I expected them to do. 

I was referring to the non functional keys you described on your XEGS.

Yes, if SNACK is detected (paddles in center area) the controller selection is blocked, as the switching _normally_ makes no sense then.
Does anybody know who feels responsible for the A8-MiST core? (I have to smile, as "Mist" in German has not only the meaning "dung" but also "crap"... 😁 )

 

Edited September 6, 2022 by Irgendwer

[darwinmac]

2 hours ago, Irgendwer said:

I was referring to the non functional keys you described on your XEGS.

Yes, if SNACK is detected (paddles in center area) the controller selection is blocked, as the switching _normally_ makes no sense then.
Does anybody know who feels responsible for the A8-MiST core? (I have to smile, as "Mist" in German has not only the meaning "dung" but also "crap"... 😁 )

 

@Irgendwer - There is a miscommunication. I was simply saying that the problems do not happen on the XEGS. I can use the WASD-space key combination even when I have selected joystick control. I have not seen any problems on the XEGS. My keyboard comment is incorrect. I may have seen that originally in one of the emulators where I was testing your game.

 

Regarding MiST support, the problem could be in the firmware or the core itself. At this point, I do not know where it could be. I will post something at atari-forum where most of the MiST support exists. I do not know if there will be an interest in fixing a problem that happens on one game. The main core developer is not doing much with FPGA these days. The firmware is actively supported, but I do not know if the problem exists there.

 

I do not know how difficult it would be to allow switching the controls in case the SNACK adapter is detected in error. 

 

Bob C

Edited September 7, 2022 by darwinmac
Clarification

[Irgendwer]

9 hours ago, darwinmac said:

I do not know if there will be an interest in fixing a problem that happens on one game.

Oh, I can change that to happen with future productions too. 😄
Joking aside, I see your issue.

I would prefer if the problem is fixed on the MiST side (and can imagine other wrong interpretations of the current behavior), if nothing happens (@foft?) , I think about a relaxation of the currently forced mode.

(Maybe only to be a role model for @xxl - how to handle incompatible hardware... 😂 )

Edited September 7, 2022 by Irgendwer

[Irgendwer]

12 hours ago, darwinmac said:

Regarding MiST support, the problem could be in the firmware or the core itself.

I'm not familiar with the configuration or setup of the MiST, but I guessed you checked already that there isn't a paddle somehow configured (e.g. via an USB input) which could be responsible for the wrong output?

[darwinmac]

3 minutes ago, Irgendwer said:

I'm not familiar with the configuration or setup of the MiST, but I guessed you checked already that there isn't a paddle somehow configured (e.g. via an USB input) which could be responsible for the wrong output?

That is correct. However, I was recently working with the firmware developer on paddle support so it is possible that something needs to be changed in the settings. I will try to look at it further after my holiday. 
 

Bob C

[foft]

Well the 'paddle' is always connected in that its the mist firmware talking to the core.

 

The mist firmware just provides an analog joystick input and a digital joystick input. When nothing is connected I guess it'd be odd to always send one extreme. So I guess the firmware really needs to have some special paddle mode, or perhaps just 'if atari core and nothing connected then send 100% right'.

 

I guess its also possible that someone might have their actual paddles connected and in the center on the 800XL?

 

Edited September 8, 2022 by foft

[Irgendwer]

3 hours ago, foft said:

When nothing is connected I guess it'd be odd to always send one extreme.

First of all thank you for chiming in and your answer!

When nothing is connected the resistance between the measured pins is (sort of) infinite and its very plausible to have this extreme. Just like it is for the original hardware.

 

3 hours ago, foft said:

I guess its also possible that someone might have their actual paddles connected and in the center on the 800XL?

Yes, but the game isn't really playable with paddles. So you have to connect a real joystick or turn (at least one paddle) out of the center range to be able to play with the keyboard (which is only a neat addition for the supported control schemes),

or just unplug the paddles.

The detection is heuristic and can be of course outsmarted. But it makes sense in the way it's working and an empty paddle port will never deliver anything else then the value 228.

Edited September 8, 2022 by Irgendwer

[foft]

I think the mist firmware needs extending really to tell each core if the device is connected. Then the core could set the original 'not connected' state for the paddles. At the moment it just sends it -128 to 127 for the 'analog stick' position.

[slingshot]

...or just add an option to the OSD to enable/disable paddle inputs for the POKEY (disabled - use $FF). Autodetecting if the USB attached joystick is analogue or digital is not really possible, as even digital devices are sending full range values.

[pps]

Just had a session together with my son. Was a lot of fun, but we had to stop at level 16. Many many tries, but there seems one move more is needed than game gives. 

[Irgendwer]

Like promised, here the contest version of my game "dye - Heritage Edition".

dye Heritage Edition.XEX

 

This year was exceptional. Not only a very strong field, but also lots of entries.

Congratulations to the participants on the podium!

 

Even if placed at the 5th position, have fun discovering more than 40 world heritage sites - and yes, this time it's even more challenging!

"SNACK" supported and auto-detected in port 1.

 

(No idea when I will manage to create separate/updated versions (PAL/NTSC) and how I will offer them. Currently music replay is unavailable for NTSC.)

[Irgendwer]

On 10/28/2022 at 11:50 PM, pps said:

Was a lot of fun, but we had to stop at level 16.

Spoiler

Start filling the sky with dark brown... (in general: often the initially selected first color points into the right direction...)

 

[+MrFish]

3 hours ago, Irgendwer said:

Like promised, here the contest version of my game "dye - Heritage Edition".

Thanks. Still a great game! Hope to see more "editions".

 

The joystick speed is a nice improvement; possible to add it to the previous edition at some point?

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by MrFish

[Irgendwer]

7 hours ago, MrFish said:

Still a great game! Hope to see more "editions".

Thank you! I'm not sure if I will create further editions. Creating good levels is quite an effort.

Not only to have a somewhat nice appearance while the picture has to be recognized, but also to limit necessary fill tasks and having interesting "puzzles" to solve.

There are levels in "dye HE" which took more than a day of work to create, just to fulfill those requirements.

I've pixeled also other images where I wasn't able to match those needs (e.g. having a nice image, but 16 'boring' fill tasks, but reduction to less, more interesting steps destroys the image etc.) - those didn't make it into the game.

As a general rule: You can assume that creating the levels took much longer than playing them... 😉

 

There are also many other interesting game concepts in my mind, which call for realization.

 

That said: Is there interest for a "construction kit", where everybody can create editions with own levels...?

 

7 hours ago, MrFish said:

The joystick speed is a nice improvement; possible to add it to the previous edition at some point?

Yes, I plan to take the current engine (which has a good handful of improvements) and re-release the original "dye". Don't ask me when.

[Mclaneinc]

Really fun, stuck on 6 which is silly but its such good fun I don't being stuck so much..

 

Top game..

[+MrFish]

6 hours ago, Irgendwer said:

Thank you! I'm not sure if I will create further editions. Creating good levels is quite an effort.

Yes, I figured this was the main factor.

 

You've definitely done a good job making them interesting and challenging.

 

6 hours ago, Irgendwer said:

That said: Is there interest for a "construction kit", where everybody can create editions with own levels...?

Yes, I think I might be interested to do something with it, given my background in converting graphics.

 

6 hours ago, Irgendwer said:

Yes, I plan to take the current engine (which has a good handful of improvements) and re-release the original "dye". Don't ask me when.

Cool.

 

[MichaG]

Congratulations, it was/is fun to play your game. I even took out my touch tablet for the first time in this century to play

[Beeblebrox]

@Irgendwer Well done. Looking forward to playing this one.

 

Incidentally anyone got the mouse input to work for this on Altirra? I've tried the ST mouse on ports 1 and 2 but I get jitter and it's uncontrolable. It'll be the settings no doubt.

 

I definitely welcome mouse controlled games on the A8, especially this genre. (And in a mouse control related note if Shanti's Trax game is anything to go by, (clever use of colours), perhaps a mouse controlled version of Cannon fodder may become a reality on the A8 sometime?! Anyways, I digress...)

 

The Dye genre is a fantastic addition to the A8 modern library of games.

[Irgendwer]

1 hour ago, Beeblebrox said:

Incidentally anyone got the mouse input to work for this on Altirra?

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm not sure if you try to play "dye" with ST or Amiga mouse, but those are unsupported in "dye".

 

The game supports keyboard input, CX77 Touch Tablet / CMI08 mouse interface, Joystick and SNACK (sounds, that the latter is for you 😉).

 

(The following instructions are maybe also helpful for @ZeroPage Homebrew as the game will be featured on Friday! 👍)

 

• In general you can select a color by pressing 1-5 on the keyboard. This speeds up handling very well.
• In joystick-mode keyboard is also active on "WASD" and the cursor keys without CONTROL. These move the pointer, while the "Space-Bar" performs like the trigger.
• In SNACK mode (auto-detect (yes @darwinmac, your request is on my list)) the 'X' or the 'B'-button change the color selection while the "Start"-Button behaves like an "ESC"-keypress (start-over/leave to title screen). On the title screen you can use also "SELECT" from the controller to change audio-output (PAL only).
• The Touch Tablet / mouse mode has to be selected on the title screen and is not that smooth as it could be, as the pointer freezes while a fill operation takes place. Even it doesn't affect game-play I will likely change that in a final version.

Have fun!