Building the best Atari systems with S-video, UAVs, Stereo and/or Pokeychip/Pokeymax

[Johny_lovin_it]

I've been on the hunt for having my consoles modded. At first, I wanted them all to be rgb modded and not having knowledge on how these work, I didn't think how difficult it would be cuz' I thought it'd all be easy as pie. But not all solutions are discovered yet. There's still no rgb mod for the 7800 yet but I'm fine with S-video for now, including on the XEGS. Right now, my 7800 is S-video modded with a 3.5mm audio jack stereo. But 2 things I didn't know; the UAV first and the Pokeychip. First, I didn't see why I needed the UAV cuz' after reading it, it sounded like an alternative rgb mod but it wasn't clear to me what it does. I was told it cleans out the signal. So I'm guessing this; when I put a game in the 7800, I noticed some snow or white spots as the game goes. Does this UAV fix that so its crisp and clear? Cuz' then after that, I asked if RGB is the ultimate solution that also cleans up the picture. I'm told yes. So until that becomes available, this UAV is our only shot. Can anyone confirm this point?

Now about the pokeychip, not all 7800 games display sound except ballblazer. Why only that? Cuz' it has its own pokeychip, yeah? A friend of mine brought his multi-cart for the 7800 and he wanted to show me a new game but the music didn't play. Only ballblazer and he mentioned how my console didn't have pokeychip. That could be the reason, yeah? So to have the best 7800, will I need both the UAV and Pokeychip? If so, are there any pokeychips available and where can I buy one?

 

Now for the XEGS, I haven't had it modded yet for either S-video or RGB. If I have it RGB installed, no UAV is necessary. But if not, then S-video it is. However, when I was looking for the same pokeychip, I saw youtube videos showing it having what's called a pokeymax. Is that better than an ordinary pokeychip? Then what's this version 3 I saw on this site?

Now what would be the difference between these pokeychips and just having stereo output installed? Whether a 3.5mm jack or two audio left & right channel output?

 

I know where to buy the UAV, just need to know about what pokeychips to use and where to get em'

[+Muddyfunster]

1 hour ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

Now about the pokeychip, not all 7800 games display sound except ballblazer. Why only that? Cuz' it has its own pokeychip, yeah? A friend of mine brought his multi-cart for the 7800 and he wanted to show me a new game but the music didn't play. Only ballblazer and he mentioned how my console didn't have pokeychip. That could be the reason, yeah? So to have the best 7800, will I need both the UAV and Pokeychip? If so, are there any pokeychips available and where can I buy one?

To get POKEY sounds from a game, the game needs to be programmed to produce POKEY sound. 

 

Of the original releases, only Ballblazer and Commando had a POKEY chip on the cart for their sound. Other games didn't have this as they only used the onboard TIA sound.

 

To add a POKEY to your system, you would need a multicart that supports adding a POKEY chip. Concerto supports adding a POKEY chip as does Dragonfly. That said, only games and programs that explicitly support POKEY will provide POKEY sound.

 

There isn't any place on the 7800 PCB to add a POKEY chip as far as I'm aware

 

POKEYMax is a modern (FPGA I believe) reproduction of the original POKEY chip. I think there are versions of POKEYMax that have dual or even quad pokey on the chip. I have one in my pimped 130XE with quad pokey and SID/YM. They are very good in my humble opinion. I also have a POKEYMax in my Dragonfly, in a more sedate dual Pokey setup with YM.

 

Hope that helps

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 hours ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

First, I didn't see why I needed the UAV cuz' after reading it, it sounded like an alternative rgb mod but it wasn't clear to me what it does.

The UAV doesn't output RGB - just composite.  Your XEGS should already support this via the monitor jack.

3 hours ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

I was told it cleans out the signal.

Yes, it does some sharpening and amplification.

3 hours ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

So I'm guessing this; when I put a game in the 7800, I noticed some snow or white spots as the game goes. Does this UAV fix that so its crisp and clear?

Maybe.  It depends on what the snow / white spots are being caused by.  If it's interference, the likelihood of any upgrade helping is slim depending on where in the video output chain the interference is affecting the picture.  If it's an IC or other component(s) going south, those would need to be addressed as well.

 

First thing you may want to try: moving the 7800 away from the TV and trying any fine-tuning adjustment the TV may have for the channel that the 7800 is using.

3 hours ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

Cuz' then after that, I asked if RGB is the ultimate solution that also cleans up the picture. I'm told yes.

Here's the thing: there's a significant difference between 'cleaning up the picture' and finding the source of a problem.  Like I said, if your issue is being caused by failing components or other factors not related to video generation and / or how your TV handles RF input and display, then that problem should be addressed first.  If what you want is a better-looking picture, then yes, a UAV or RGB mod will give you that.  But it will only be as good as what's being fed into it.

3 hours ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

So until that becomes available, this UAV is our only shot. Can anyone confirm this point?

For consoles, yes, the UAV is going to be your best bet.  There are RGB upgrades for the 8-bit computers, but chip shortages mean that most of them are unavailable at the moment.

 

Bear in mind that with the consoles you're also going to have to figure out how to get audio out as well.  There are a number of ways to do this, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

4 hours ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

Now for the XEGS, I haven't had it modded yet for either S-video or RGB. If I have it RGB installed, no UAV is necessary. But if not, then S-video it is.

Dumb question: are you using the RF output on the XEGS?

 

Thinking about it, what type of TV are you using with the consoles (which I assume are still running over RF)?  CRT, LCD, and how old is it?

 

Also, what is your end goal for modifying these devices?  Better picture, compatibility with displays, etc.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

@Johny_lovin_it

 

First the UAV is a replacement encoder PCB that takes the raw video signals from the console and provides a replacement composite and s-video outputs from it. The UAV was originally designed for the 8-bit computers and that is still largely its intended use. But not long after it was released, it was found that the UAV with some design changes could be made to be used with the consoles as well. So the UAV provides a new composite and s-video output for all of the atari 8-bit computer line and also for the 2600, 5200, and 7800.

 

There are RGB solutions for the 8-bit computers as well as the 2600 and 5200. In the case of the 8-bit and 5200, they use the same RGB solution which is the Sophia board. But as far as I know, it ONLY provides an RGB output solution. So unless you have everything else in place for that, you are looking at a bit more investment in order to use the RGB signals.

 

The 2600 RGB solution is to install a Tim Worthington RGB kit. Unlike the Sophia, it also provides output for composite and s-video in addition to RGB. You can even get a small add on board that would provide component if you wanted in addition to the other outputs. But it is a more complicated install depending on what you are installing it into and again only for the 2600 systems.

 

The Sophia and RGB kit for the 2600 are not that inexpensive either. So that is something else to keep in mind. The UAV in most case is probably more than adequate enough for most people that just want a good, decent way to get their retro consoles connected up to modern displays. In the case of the UAV, with a few exceptions (Due to how the games were programmed), pairing a UAV upgraded setup with a scaler like the RetroTink products produces really good results when using the s-video.

 

Now...about that audio. Here is what has happened. Most likely the mixing that was done to get the stereo is causing the TIA signal to overpower the pokey signal on games that use both. Commando for instance is one of these games. Ballblazer seems to work and sound okay because Ballblazer only uses the Pokey for audio so the TIA audio isn't there to drown it out. Not that you would like it, but if that console were in my hands, the stereo would be removed and the audio redone to mimic the Atari audio mixing so that all games would sound proper again including the flash cart your buddy brought over. Assuming his flash cart contains the pokey in it for those games. But you would lose the stereo effect. Audio would be routed so that all of the mixed audio is output to both audio jacks. We call this dual mono because it is the exact same audio signal but brought out to both audio jacks so that the audio isn't just coming out of one speaker when you connect up the system to a TV or AV receiver.

 

There are several of us here quite versed in these areas so hopefully some of what I've stated has helped answer some of your questions. 

 

I would use the multiquote but I've honestly not figured out how to use it without totally hosing up my messages so felt it best to just throw it all out here.

[Johny_lovin_it]

4 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Dumb question: are you using the RF output on the XEGS?

 

Thinking about it, what type of TV are you using with the consoles (which I assume are still running over RF)?  CRT, LCD, and how old is it?

 

Also, what is your end goal for modifying these devices?  Better picture, compatibility with displays, etc.

I'm using a crt tv. Specifically a D-Series with S-video. I only have my 7800 cuz' of course backwards compatible. Anyway, I had it S-video modded and has 3.5mm audio jack for stereo, at least I assume so cuz' the system only has mono but with the 3.5mm audio jack, it must have stereo, yes? I do have lcd hdtvs by vizio, I just haven't tested it out on it. Its just my tv is SO HUGE, its a 36" screen so I don't have room for it. Lol

 

I haven't tested my XEGS, I just got it fresh in the box so it has what it originally has; rf and a/v output. I want it modded for S-video and stereo of course.

 

My end goal? I want to have... best is not the best word to use if I want just improved, clean and sharp picture when I want to stream on Twitch and play on my crt tv or hdtv. So that's my end goal. At first, I want all my consoles rgb but that's unrealistic so just good enough to get away from rf and composite. But if there aren't any S-video mod boards, and consoles I have like the Fairchild Channel F and Bally Astrocade aren't big like the NES and Master System with their detailed graphics. So its not really practical for those two who look like the 2600 or half way cuz' all they display is cubes. Lol So i'm fine with composite, I just don't want the snows and I'd like the picture bright and clear enough.

[Johny_lovin_it]

3 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

@Johny_lovin_it

 

First the UAV is a replacement encoder PCB that takes the raw video signals from the console and provides a replacement composite and s-video outputs from it. The UAV was originally designed for the 8-bit computers and that is still largely its intended use. But not long after it was released, it was found that the UAV with some design changes could be made to be used with the consoles as well. So the UAV provides a new composite and s-video output for all of the atari 8-bit computer line and also for the 2600, 5200, and 7800.

 

There are RGB solutions for the 8-bit computers as well as the 2600 and 5200. In the case of the 8-bit and 5200, they use the same RGB solution which is the Sophia board. But as far as I know, it ONLY provides an RGB output solution. So unless you have everything else in place for that, you are looking at a bit more investment in order to use the RGB signals.

 

The 2600 RGB solution is to install a Tim Worthington RGB kit. Unlike the Sophia, it also provides output for composite and s-video in addition to RGB. You can even get a small add on board that would provide component if you wanted in addition to the other outputs. But it is a more complicated install depending on what you are installing it into and again only for the 2600 systems.

 

The Sophia and RGB kit for the 2600 are not that inexpensive either. So that is something else to keep in mind. The UAV in most case is probably more than adequate enough for most people that just want a good, decent way to get their retro consoles connected up to modern displays. In the case of the UAV, with a few exceptions (Due to how the games were programmed), pairing a UAV upgraded setup with a scaler like the RetroTink products produces really good results when using the s-video.

 

Now...about that audio. Here is what has happened. Most likely the mixing that was done to get the stereo is causing the TIA signal to overpower the pokey signal on games that use both. Commando for instance is one of these games. Ballblazer seems to work and sound okay because Ballblazer only uses the Pokey for audio so the TIA audio isn't there to drown it out. Not that you would like it, but if that console were in my hands, the stereo would be removed and the audio redone to mimic the Atari audio mixing so that all games would sound proper again including the flash cart your buddy brought over. Assuming his flash cart contains the pokey in it for those games. But you would lose the stereo effect. Audio would be routed so that all of the mixed audio is output to both audio jacks. We call this dual mono because it is the exact same audio signal but brought out to both audio jacks so that the audio isn't just coming out of one speaker when you connect up the system to a TV or AV receiver.

 

There are several of us here quite versed in these areas so hopefully some of what I've stated has helped answer some of your questions. 

 

I would use the multiquote but I've honestly not figured out how to use it without totally hosing up my messages so felt it best to just throw it all out here.

So I have a 7800 and that's all I want cuz' of course, backwards compatible. If it has a pokeychip already, good but if there are games that require a pokeychip, like on the atariage store, does that mean it has the pokeychip already in the game? Just like Ballblazer, its all I need?

My friend told me if I want stereo, I need another one. If so, can I just take one out of another 7800 and put it in mine? Cuz' I can't find any on ebay.

 

And that's fine, I am okay with just S-video on my 7800 and this UAV and I have a retrotink2x and 5x. Now when I saw them listed on ebay, there's a drop down list of UAVs. There are 2 for the 7800; one that says plug-in and the other says wiring. I'll be hiring someone to work on this but idk which to get. What would you recommend? There's the Kit and the Basic.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/283503178836?hash=item42021b3454:g:UXQAAOSwnvdcygRN&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoAM6DuGabNgfpApTw8Ao0Obhn7ZpABNacNLxqggsjfh8CMrbFBP9igF8pI9Ft3HVBC8z7pAZC7pa13FdB9IgiDoJ1c94OMDbKO%2FiUOuTlN%2FVWyhAQWgN%2BMk%2BDzFp8i3M%2B23E1KlUDfofTnCgFvQyfrVG%2FMZLxISDdSsaUzgEHJ6R1xi0G5RbjfogS5%2Fu9pgqlnlrHJXaXeMzSk2f%2BZWnGFI%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR_j1_ZzqYA
 

Reading what the Tia signal is, I'm guessing its a bit of a combo of picture and audio due to RF. Nevermind that for now but I'd like to hear amazing sound and music. I saw this video on youtube where this guy showed his XEGS and played awesome music that can match the NES games' soundtrack. But he uses the pokeymax and I don't know if that's an upgraded one or the same thing as the original pokeychip. Point is, I don't know what to do for audio. Do I need two pokeychips for the 7800 for stereo? Should I go with stereo over what you described in removing it to have it mimic audio mixing? And what about the XEGS? And I don't want to use multicarts cuz' I'm old fashioned and I wanna' collect games individually. The atari age store has games that require pokey. Some say it has it inside, some don't have it and my console has to have it.

 

And for having my consoles modded, I don't want to have them cut, just a fyi.

 

[+Muddyfunster]

29 minutes ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

So I have a 7800 and that's all I want cuz' of course, backwards compatible. If it has a pokeychip already, good but if there are games that require a pokeychip, like on the atariage store, does that mean it has the pokeychip already in the game? Just like Ballblazer, its all I need?

My friend told me if I want stereo, I need another one. If so, can I just take one out of another 7800 and put it in mine? Cuz' I can't find any on ebay.

There is no 7800 with a POKEY inside. Any games that use POKEY either have on their cart (Games in the AA store and originals from back in the day) or you add the POKEY yourself by having a multicart with POKEY in and using that to run a rom of the game. 

 

If you want to use homebrew roms that use POKEY then you need a multicart that has a POKEY in the cart. Either an original POKEY or a modern alternative like POKEYMax or HOKEY.

 

 

34 minutes ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

Reading what the Tia signal is, I'm guessing its a bit of a combo of picture and audio due to RF. Nevermind that for now but I'd like to hear amazing sound and music. I saw this video on youtube where this guy showed his XEGS and played awesome music that can match the NES games' soundtrack

TIA handles standard 7800 (non-POKEY audio) and 2600 video. So if you pop a 2600 game in your console, TIA handles audio and video, but it also handles regular non-POKEY audit on the 7800. 

 

The XEGS is a different console to the 7800. The XEGS is from what I understand a consolised A8 (65XE/130XE type thing). It uses POKEY as well and can also use modern POKEY reproductions like the POKEYMax.

 

31 minutes ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

Do I need two pokeychips for the 7800 for stereo?

There is very very little software that does stereo or that requires 2 POKEY chips. Mostly music demos and the like and you would need a multicart of some description to run them.

 

 

37 minutes ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

And I don't want to use multicarts cuz' I'm old fashioned and I wanna' collect games individually

Fine, then you need to just buy games that have the POKEY "on cart".

 

 

32 minutes ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

The atari age store has games that require pokey. Some say it has it inside, some don't have it and my console has to have it.

Your 7800 will not have a POKEY inside as there is no where for it to go. If you buy a game that uses POKEY and you buy it without the chip, you would need to add your own to the cart for the POKEY sound to work.

[+x=usr(1536)]

3 hours ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

Anyway, I had it S-video modded and has 3.5mm audio jack for stereo, at least I assume so cuz' the system only has mono but with the 3.5mm audio jack, it must have stereo, yes?

No.  The 7800 doesn't have stereo sound capability.  As @-^CrossBow^- mentioned, what you'll have is not true stereo, but rather the same mono sound output on both audio channels.

3 hours ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

I haven't tested my XEGS, I just got it fresh in the box so it has what it originally has; rf and a/v output. I want it modded for S-video and stereo of course.

Modifying it for stereo will require the installation of a second POKEY and an appropriate adapter board.  S-Video will also require some hackery on the motherboard as the chroma and luma signals used for S-Video aren't brought to a monitor jack like they are on other A8s.  Take a look at this link for details and a picture of the surgery involved.

2 hours ago, Johny_lovin_it said:

And for having my consoles modded, I don't want to have them cut, just a fyi.

For some of the things you're asking for, modifying the case will be necessary.  Adding outputs that weren't there originally have to be mounted somewhere in order to be accessible from outside of the machine.  That generally means drilling a hole or holes to accommodate the appropriate connectors. 

[+MrZarniwoop]

11 hours ago, Muddyfunster said:

There isn't any place on the 7800 PCB to add a POKEY chip as far as I'm aware

You may be forgetting about the XBoard, which did exactly that. However, it was not met with much enthusiasm.

[+Muddyfunster]

1 minute ago, MrZarniwoop said:

You may be forgetting about the XBoard, which did exactly that. However, it was not met with much enthusiasm.

I wasn't aware of that, thanks for the links.

 

Interesting project.

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 minute ago, MrZarniwoop said:

You may be forgetting about the XBoard, which did exactly that. However, it was not met with much enthusiasm.

Right, but software has to be specifically written for it to be able to take advantage of it.  AFAIK, that never happened.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

36 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

For some of the things you're asking for, modifying the case will be necessary.  Adding outputs that weren't there originally have to be mounted somewhere in order to be accessible from outside of the machine.  That generally means drilling a hole or holes to accommodate the appropriate connectors. 

There are others that offer services that make enclosures with 3D printers and the like. With that, they add the needed AV outputs the enclosure and then finding a no cut method to install the enclosure to the case shell, from there the wire runs through vent slots and other openings on the console. Or there is the ability to install the needed jacks if you remove other components like the RF modulator or something else. Not in all cases is this possible, but as an example, if you go with one of Crayon's boards for the Intellivision. You get both RGB and composite from a single 9-pin mini din. Since his board creates its own composite output, you can remove the RF modulator on the Intellivision and then install the output jack in place of that RF and reuse the opening. I've done that on several Intellivision consoles.

 

[+MrZarniwoop]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

The 7800 doesn't have stereo sound capability.

The NTSC TIA has hardware 2-channel audio, so in theory an NTSC 7800 could do stereo TIA sound if you wired one up for left audio and the other for right audio per Tim Worthington's audio buffer circuit. There are very few 2600 games that take advantage of TIA stereo audio. Note that this only applies to the NTSC TIA, as the PAL TIA apparently mixes both channels on-chip into one TIA mono audio output.

 

However, I don't think any 7800 games were ever written for 2-channel audio. This may be because it's made further difficult with the 7800 cartridge-based audio as a 3rd mono audio channel which would need to be balanced with 2-channel TIA somehow. In theory, it's possible, perhaps by mixing the 3rd cartridge audio channel onto both audio channels, but that's tricky and you'd only gain the ability to run those handful of 2600 L/R audio games with stereo separation.

[+x=usr(1536)]

25 minutes ago, MrZarniwoop said:

he NTSC TIA has hardware 2-channel audio, so in theory an NTSC 7800 could do stereo TIA sound if you wired one up for left audio and the other for right audio per Tim Worthington's audio buffer circuit.

Which is true.  While it's not my intention to split hairs over this, it's important to note that there is no panning or mixing between the left and right channels on the TIA - so while there are two separate sound channels, it's more like having a left mono channel and a right mono channel that are entirely independent of each other.

  

25 minutes ago, MrZarniwoop said:

However, I don't think any 7800 games were ever written for 2-channel audio. This may be because it's made further difficult on the 7800 because cartridge-based audio is a 3rd mono audio channel which would need to be balanced with 2-channel TIA somehow. In theory, it's possible, perhaps by mixing the 3rd cartridge audio channel onto both audio channels, but that's tricky and you'd only gain the ability to run those handful of 2600 L/R audio games with stereo separation.

In theory, stereo audio generated on the cartridge could be encoded with the appropriate separation signal for the TV standard being output, at which point the TV could handle stereo sound reproduction.  However, that wouldn't work for anything generated by the TIA (or other non-RF output), and I can only imagine how horrendous it would be to implement.

[Johny_lovin_it]

10 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

 

 

 

Well thank you all for your replies and suggestions. I don't know if I'll need the xboard, it would be a fun experiment but I'll think about it. As for the XEGS, I think it sounds like a better 8 bit system than the 7800. I wonder if the 2 button controller would work on those games. The sounds and music sound like they could match the NES. And I'm fine with it having dual mono. It sounds like the NES as well cuz' it only had one audio output. So I want to do the ultimate upgrade like this video. I already ordered a UAV board, I just need either a pokeychip regular or pokeymax 3, idc which. And finally this 1mb upgrade, so wish me luck on that. Thanks for all your help, guys.

[juansolo]

An XEGS is essentially a consolised Atari 8-Bit, so most of the mods you can do to one of those you can do to an XEGS. U1MB, Sophia, I assume a VBXE might go in there also and dual Pokey. On board, like the XE you can get S-Video from it which depending on how far you want to go will get you a good picture.

 

The 7800 is a tough nut to crack because it's esentially two machines in one. In that it's both a 2600 (TIA) and a 7800 (Maria), but when running in 7800 mode for example it still uses the TIA for sound, and in 2600 mode the TIA gets it's clock from the MARIA. So in that regard they're linked but in terms of video output they are completely seperate, and herein lies the problems with it. Where the RGB mods for the 2600 surplant the TIA, you would have to have essentally two RGB mods to make the 7800 work in the same manner and have it fully functional. You could, technically, abandon 2600 backward compatibility and do something similar to the 2600 mod for the Maria. Technically there's no reason why that wouldn't work. But to do both sides of things is currently quite complex, and though that complexity could be overcome, it'd be a hell of an expensive upgrade that I doubt enough people would be prepared to pay for.

 

Tim Worthington has been working on it forever, also Saint. Saint has a solution but I suspect it's doing things in cart to do it, which will all come down to how far you value running original hardware (I'm guessing here). That said, you're already replacing the TIA essentially with the 2600 RGB mod, but as I say it depends on how far Saint's solution is going. At that point it might just be easier (and more cost effective) to run a MiSTer.

 

For the timebeing RGB is in the future, if at all. Currently for a NTSC 7800 the UAV is the most simple and cost effective option that gets you S-Video and Composite. If you seek perfection, you're not gonna get it, but you can get a REALLY good picture out of it by adding the chroma shift circuit that @-^CrossBow^- has. The PAL machine is a complete basket case in comparison and though it's possible to get a good picture from it, it takes way more effort due to a different set of flaws. I've just gotten to the place where I advise people in PAL regions to import an NTSC machine instead. It's less pain in the long run.

 

I'm with Jessie on the sound also. 7800, just get the TIA and Cart sourced audio balanced and don't bother with 'stereo'. Stereo again is possible, but it's a fudge and to do it properly would require a mixer circuit which no-one has done because it's not really stereo. The XE you can get a board for and some demos and games support it. You'll need to source a second POKEY, which is easiest from a BallBlazer or Commando cart. Here you're looking at between £20-25 respectively for bare cart in poor shape. Again whether it's worth it or not depends on how much stereo source material you plan to play.

Edited September 19, 2022 by juansolo