CV-NUC+ A Miniature CV Motherboard is in the Works

[chart45]

that's awesome guys... that is what i like to see..  guys helping others to make it happen just wow 

 

Edited March 7, 2023 by chart45

[Atari Nut]

I agree.  Well done guys!!

[+mytek]

Thank you everyone

 

There has been quite a few things happening since I lasted posted here. In fact a lot of that actively has taken place over the last 3 days. Basically I made some improvements, updated documentation for eventual release, and made changes to both the Main and MSX related boards with the idea of doing a 3rd sample run before release.

 

You can read all about it on my last blog post: https://ataribits.weebly.com/blog/category/colecovision

EDIT: this got further updates on March 12th 2023

[HDTV1080P]

While its true that S-Video offers a better picture quality when compared to composite video. The problem is around 10 years ago all consumer displays stopped offering the S-Video input as a cost cutting measure. Its even getting hard to find the better-quality analog component video input on displays.

 

Over the last 10 years the entire computer monitor industry and consumer electronics projectors and flat panel screens has went to 100% native HDMI input. The ideal ColecoVision compatible system requires a native HDMI output in order to be a market success. This is because 100% of all modern consumer displays in production have a HDMI port with many times all analog inputs including composite video gone from the computer monitors.   

Edited March 11, 2023 by HDTV1080P

[Atari Nut]

8 hours ago, mytek said:

Thank you everyone

 

There has been quite a few things happening since I lasted posted here. In fact a lot of that actively has taken place over the last 3 days. Basically I made some improvements, updated documentation for eventual release, and made changes to both the Main and MSX related boards with the idea of doing a 3rd sample run before release.

 

You can read all about it on my last blog post: https://ataribits.weebly.com/blog/category/colecovision

This is good news!  I regularly monitor this board to keep up with your posts.  Thank you for the dedication and hard work you are applying to this project.  My hope is to be able to use this on my CRT which only has Video-In & Audio-In (Composite?).  I have a cable which connects my Atari 800XL to the CRT.  Would this work also with the CV-NUC?

[+mytek]

On 3/11/2023 at 4:47 AM, HDTV1080P said:

While its true that S-Video offers a better picture quality when compared to composite video. The problem is around 10 years ago all consumer displays stopped offering the S-Video input as a cost cutting measure. Its even getting hard to find the better-quality analog component video input on displays.

 

Over the last 10 years the entire computer monitor industry and consumer electronics projectors and flat panel screens has went to 100% native HDMI input. The ideal ColecoVision compatible system requires a native HDMI output in order to be a market success. This is because 100% of all modern consumer displays in production have a HDMI port with many times all analog inputs including composite video gone from the computer monitors.   

While everything you are saying is true, then HDMI output would appear to be a worthy goal. And is fundamental to why I spent considerable time to insure that I could get the cleanest S-Video possible out of this project. Because for less than $20 I can convert this to a very nice HDMI output using one of these.

 

AliExpress  Buy LINK

 

And end up with a picture like this on my 55" LG HDTV (this image taken with my camera doesn't do it justice, and in reality the colors are much more vibrant and saturated)..

And this was before I cleaned up the S-Video even more through some added design improvements.

 

So although RGB might be even better given a suitable HDMI converter, that becomes an added cost (cost of TMS-RGB Board + Converter). And unless you live in Europe, new RGB capable monitors are not easily found elsewhere, but everyone has an HDMI capable TV

 

And the final option of an F18A is becoming a rare item, and now commands a high cost of $175 while providing a VGA output, which tends to also be more expensive to convert to HDMI if one wishes to go that route. BTW, VGA is also slowly going extinct, no longer being provided as an input on newer TVs.

 

Over the last couple of years I've bought several of those S-Video to HDMI converters from AliExpress without a problem, and with every one of them working out of the box and producing the same result. Even nicer, they can be powered directly from any free USB port on a modern TV.

 

On 3/11/2023 at 6:58 AM, Atari Nut said:

This is good news!  I regularly monitor this board to keep up with your posts.  Thank you for the dedication and hard work you are applying to this project.  My hope is to be able to use this on my CRT which only has Video-In & Audio-In (Composite?).  I have a cable which connects my Atari 800XL to the CRT.  Would this work also with the CV-NUC?

The answer is yes to all of your questions

 

In fact the Composite signal coming out of the CV-NUC+ is of the same quality of the UAV if you are familiar with that, and produces probably the best quality of any Composite upgrade for the CV.

 

5-pin DIN A/V pin-out on the CV-NUC+ is the same as Atari 8-bit computers, and can use the same cable.

 

Hercules Workshop also makes a High Quality Mini-DIN S-Video cable that also works great. Which can be used for an S-Video capable monitor, or when converting to HDMI with one of those converters I mentioned previously.

 

 

Buy LINK

[Atari Nut]

23 minutes ago, mytek said:

In fact the Composite signal coming out of the CV-NUC+ is of the same quality of the UAV if you are familiar with that, and produces probably the best quality of any Composite upgrade for the CV.

 

5-pin DIN A/V Jack pin-out on the CV-NUC+ is the same as Atari 8-bit computers, and can use the same cable.

That's great!  Yes, I have the UAV mod and the output quality is excellent.  I recently acquired a ColecoVision with a composite mod.  Connecting it to my TCL LED yielded a picture that wasn't as clean as I expected.  Then I remembered that I'm used to seeing a connection via the UAV so that was probably why.

 

Would plastic joystick ports such as these (or similar) fit?     Male Joystick Port - Atari 2600, 7800, Colecovision - NOS CO19062 (console5.com)

 

I think plastic looks better and will make it look more like a vintage console.

 

 

[+mytek]

17 minutes ago, Atari Nut said:

Would plastic joystick ports such as these (or similar) fit?     Male Joystick Port - Atari 2600, 7800, Colecovision - NOS CO19062 (console5.com)

Sorry. no those won't work.

 

17 minutes ago, Atari Nut said:

I think plastic looks better and will make it look more like a vintage console.

Perhaps so, but this isn't going to look like a vintage Colecovision anyway, having a more modern flair (looks are a subjective thing). Besides the metal DB9 jacks are more readily available from multiple sources, cost less (only $0.79 from Digi-Key), and should hold up better in the long term. And because a lot of the parts will be coming from Digi-Key, shipping will be combined.

 

BTW, I noticed that the listing you linked to shows Out of Stock. I'm guessing because that's based on NOS parts which are getting more difficult to source.

[Atari Nut]

That makes sense.  Keep up the good work!

[+mytek]

The following people's AtariAge name has been added to the CV-NUC+ Main board's silk screen.

 

@chart45 @Falonn @leaded solder @fieroluke @nanochess  @ChildOfCv @Pixelboy @5-11under

 

 

 

This is my way to pay homage to all those that I feel helped in some tangible way with the technical aspects of this project. Either by their direct assistance, or by the documentation and posts that they produced that allowed me to bring this creation to life. And I'd also like to add my thanks to Pixelboy for the SGM game conversions that he uploaded making verification testing so much better, and to nanochess who created that great little SGM Test ROM that was immensely useful in getting the prototype MSX Module's CPLD to work in its earlier iterations so that the board wasn't just a fancy brick.

 

Here's what the next sample boards will look like using JLCPCB's purple solder mask offering (Final color for the TBA DIY Kit board's is currently unknown).

 

TOP

 

BOTTOM

 

EDIT: I've left all the component IDs the same as what was shown on the V1.4 schematics that I uploaded a while back, and simply removed a few components that were no longer required. New V1.5 schematics will be provided when the project gets fully released.

[HDTV1080P]

Many people enjoy playing ColecoVision/ADAM videogames on a Windows PC using a digital HDMI output on the computer graphics card (or DVI output for legacy monitors). For example a entry level $79.99 graphics card with free shipping for a Windows PC offers one HDMI output, one legacy DVI output, and one displayport output. Playing ColecoVision/ADAM games on a Windows PC offers the best quality detail and color accuracy that I have ever seen for the ColecoVision/ADAM.

 

https://www.newegg.com/p/27N-008E-00015?Item=9SIB601JKH0644&quicklink=true

 

However, Mytek I think it is really awesome that you created a new ColecoVision motherboard for those people that do not want to use a Windows emulation program to play ColecoVision videogames. It is just that converting analog S-Video to digital HDMI will not look as good as having a pure digital HDMI output (plus there is a few second delay in the conversion). In the ideal world someone should develop a new ColecoVision/ADAM graphics card on a single chip that takes the binary digital data and maps the output to digital HDMI with no analog conversion (just like what one sees on a Windows PC with HDMI output with no analog conversion). If a new custom HDMI graphics chip was developed then people could use it on any new custom ColecoVision/ADAM clone motherboard projects. In addition, it would be possible to use the same custom ColecoVision/ADAM chip (if developed) to place in a plug in Super Game Module interface for the classic 1982 ColecoVision console and 1983 ADAM computer if the Supergame modules have a micro HDMI port on the right side that access the single chip graphics card inside a new version of the SGM.

 

It just most likely is not in the budget to spend several thousands of dollars developing a custom ColecoVision/ADAM HDMI graphics card chips that everyone can use for their projects. It would be like a replacement for the F18A with no analog but pure digital video. I know the graphics card companies with their hardware engineers could develop such a chip if they were contacted but it might cost over $10,000+ in research and development. But it would be a long-term solution for the ColecoVision/ADAM offering HDMI, legacy DVI, and Displayport output just like a $79.99 graphics card on a Windows PC.     

[+mytek]

6 hours ago, HDTV1080P said:

However, Mytek I think it is really awesome that you created a new ColecoVision motherboard for those people that do not want to use a Windows emulation program to play ColecoVision videogames. It is just that converting analog S-Video to digital HDMI will not look as good as having a pure digital HDMI output (plus there is a few second delay in the conversion).

Thanks

 

Actually if we think about what options the original console came with for video output, we are talking RF only. And I bet there are a bunch of CV users that still use that. So anything I do to improve upon that is going to be better. Yes of course you can use this or that whiz bang PC with and equally impressive video card via emulation. But I wanted to keep it close to the real deal, but improve it in areas that really needed help, such as the video. And then there is resolution... you gotta keep in mind that this isn't an X-Box, and you aren't going to get that level of quality from 1982 8-bit technology.

 

So no matter how clear you make the video, it'll always be the 80's chunky, blocky graphics we remember as looking so cool BITD.

[ChildOfCv]

22 hours ago, HDTV1080P said:

It would be like a replacement for the F18A with no analog but pure digital video.

Well, the F18A is pure digital output until the final step to convert to VGA.  I suspect that a slight change to the output circuitry and removal of the DAC would allow direct HDMI output.  Perhaps that's one of the successor's goals.  I could swear I remember a discussion about digital output, at least DVI-compatible.  No direct HDMI output support though because that's locked behind licensing fees.

[+mytek]

3 hours ago, ChildOfCv said:

No direct HDMI output support though because that's locked behind licensing fees.

Yeah over in the Atari side there is a video device called Sophia with DVI output. Several owners had made suggestions about making it HDMI instead, but the creator said that was not possible because of very high licensing fees. Really sad that the industry has never provided a reasonable or FREE licensing for small entities. It's also weird to me at least, that there even is a licensing aspect to HDMI in the first place. I can't recall any other computer/video interface port requiring this (there probably is something).

[HDTV1080P]

I did a quick search on the Internet and it appears the HDMI licensing fee is only 15 cents for each end user licensed product if that information is correct and not outdated. However the HDMI adopter agreement costs $10,000 a year in fees or $5,000 a year fee plus a $1 a unit for low volume.

If it was a flat rate of $5,000 one time fee it would not be so bad, but that annual fee of $5,000 is too high if one wants to only run off a QTY of 500 ColecoVision/ADAM HDMI products. Now if one contacts a graphics card company and has them make the ColecoVision/ADAM HDMI graphics card, most likely the fee would not be charged since the third-party company is already paying $10,000 every year to make licensed HDMI products. Or the fee might be reduced to $500 or less and spread out to other companies that they make prodcuts for.

 

So maybe if a new version of the F18A was made and mass produced in QTY’s of 500 to 1,000 by a graphics card company, the HDMI fee might be waved or greatly reduced since that company is making over one million HDMI products a year and paying $10,000 a year for a HDMI fee is consider a small charge for a large company.

 

The last case scenario would be to have a DVI output with analog RCA audio output that is converted to HDMI by a external device. But the better solution would be to have a graphics card company make a new HDMI graphics card for all or most the 1970’s-1990’s videogame and computer systems where the fee is not charged or spread out among many projects.

 

https://www.symmetryelectronics.com/blog/what-are-the-licensing-costs-associated-with-hdmi/

Edited March 13, 2023 by HDTV1080P

[chart45]

what they did for the phoenix? 

[+mytek]

Ok this has really been getting off topic (and I'm guilty of promoting that). Because as I stated earlier the CV-NUC+ has been designed to have Composite and S-Video output, and that decision has been solidly locked in. Now I don't want to stop the alternative video discussion, because I do think something very good will come out of it. But I think it's time to move it over into its own thread where it can continue to be explored and will be easier to find in a future search.

[+mytek]

Double Post

[+mytek]

Getting back to the topic of fake AY-3-8910 chips. Yesterday I received an order for 5 Yamaha YM2149F chips from an eBay seller, with my main purpose to see if the Yamaha chips would be the real deal.

 

Well suffice it to say all 5 of them were completely authentic, and all of them worked as they should when tested with my CV-NUC+ prototype.

 

As you can see in the photo they show evidence of something that has been sitting around in a dusty old bin for quite sometime, or having been pulled from a board, complete with all the scuffs and scratches that would generally occur. When I first got them they were quite dirty as well, but after a few unsuccessful attempts with Acetone and a cotton swab to rub off the markings (which failed), they ended up a bit cleaner.

 

So this backs my theory that there must be a lot of Yamaha YM2149F chips in the wild. So much so that they regularly get used as the basis for fake AY chips. Personally I think I'll just stick to buying and recommending the Yamaha chip for use in the CV-NUC+, since at least it appears that we'll get what we ordered, and it subs for an AY-3-8910A quite well. I'll still be listing both the AY-3-8910A and the YM2149F on the CV-NUC+MSX Module's silk screen, as well as in the BOM, and I would recommend shooting for the YM2149F when you place your order, unless you absolutely desire to use the AY-3-8910. A genuine AY chip can still be purchased from Arcade Parts and Repair at a cost of $10 a piece + $10 shipping, and I did buy a couple of these which I verified as the real AY chip.

 

EDIT: Since it appears that a lot of the eBay AY chips are actually YM chips in disguise, with a light surface sanding, a new coat of black paint, and the AY-3-8910 labeling freshly printed, maybe buying these isn't such a bad idea. At least they will look pretty, and if they are around the same price being asked for the YM chips why not.

[leaded solder]

Yamaha had contracts with a lot of people outside of "just" home computers and musical instruments, I suspect. Japan also has/had a law essentially requiring pachinko machines to be scrapped or exported a couple years after their date of manufacture, so there's a lot of those made every year, then later going into scrapper inventory along with their audio chips. Nowadays I bet they're PC-adjacent hardware or at least something that uses cheap sample-based audio, so the supply from pachinko and pachislot is gonna dry up.

 

I have heard other people in the past speculate that the AY-3-8910s are mostly blacktopped YM2149s – from memory, they're mostly the same but the Yamaha clock is doubled.

Edited March 20, 2023 by leaded solder

[+mytek]

On 3/19/2023 at 8:38 PM, leaded solder said:

I have heard other people in the past speculate that the AY-3-8910s are mostly blacktopped YM2149s – from memory, they're mostly the same but the Yamaha clock is doubled.

The clock is only doubled if pin-26 is pulled low. here's the excerpt from the Yamaha YM2149 datasheet...

This is normally a No-Connect pin on the AY-3-8910 labeled as a TEST pin. Description in AY datasheet...

So other than that, there are only some very minor differences between the two chips when applied in a circuit, which are normally imperceivable to most listeners.

 

EDIT: On the plus side if the YM2149 chip was used for sound generation in the Colecovision (aka, MSX compatibility), there would be one less flip-flop required to divide down the 3.58Mhz to 1.79Mhz for the sound clock. Of course this would require pulling pin-26 low.

 

On 3/19/2023 at 8:38 PM, leaded solder said:

Japan also has/had a law essentially requiring pachinko machines to be scrapped or exported a couple years after their date of manufacture, so there's a lot of those made every year, then later going into scrapper inventory along with their audio chips.

Thank you for the very interesting article you linked to 👍

[Atari Nut]

Mike, I understand the Atari 7800 controllers work with a ColecoVision... both buttons.  You just need another device plugged in for the numpad.  Have you tried a 7800 controller on your CV-NUC?

[doubledown]

3 hours ago, Atari Nut said:

Mike, I understand the Atari 7800 controllers work with a ColecoVision... both buttons.  You just need another device plugged in for the numpad.  Have you tried a 7800 controller on your CV-NUC?

Both 7800 buttons can be read by the ColecoVision, yes...but not simultaneously.  If both buttons are press, the ColecoVision only reads button 2...so a game like Tutankham cannot be played with a 7800 controller, on the ColecoVision.  

[+mytek]

11 hours ago, Atari Nut said:

Have you tried a 7800 controller on your CV-NUC?

At this point (and with the slight mod required for AtariSoft detection) my board will mimic a standard CV as far as the standard controller is concerned. So yes a 7800 controller should work the same, including what @doubledown pointed out.

 

--------------------

 

When testing the newest MSX Module something was revealed. I discovered that there is a key difference between the AY and the YM sound chips. Specifically that the AY is louder, or in other words has a hotter audio output. Because of this difference and the fact that YM chips are easier to get than AY chips now days, I'm going to spec the Yamaha YM2149F be used in this module and set the audio mix between the SN and the YM to take this into account. I made this decision after discovering that many of the AY chips being sold second hand are in actuality YM chips with a black paint job and new labeling. But every once in a great while you might get a 'real' AY-3-8910 as pictured below. However if you order a YM2149F that's what you'll certainly get.

 

Latest Version of the CV-NUC+MSX Module Testing with a 'REAL' AY-3-8910 vs. a YM2149F

Sporting a 'no-extra charge' purple solder mask from JLCPCB.

CPLD is now located on back side in order to allow clearance for 3D printed case supports, thus making an easier conversion of the 576NUC+ 3D printed case for use with the CV-NUC+.

[+mytek]

Working on the enclosure.

 

 

A modification of @Mr Robot's original 576NUC+ design.

 

EDIT: Still refining the overall look, getting used to the new 3D printer, and will be going with a dark gray filament in the next print