Games you wish had come out on the 7800

[+Defender_2600]

2 hours ago, MaximRecoil said:

They used that trick in the original Rocky movie

 

Since you mentioned it, just out of curiosity...

 

I'm assuming it should have some horizontal scrolling to view all of the boxing ring but at least we wouldn't have those little Master System sprites. Both boxers are using only one 160B palette and the boxing ring two 160A palettes (shared in the 160B palette), so there are still additional colors available.

 

I couldn't resist the temptation.

 

P.S.:  compared to 7800, the SMS puts more colors on screen at one time for the background (SMS 31 colors from 2 palettes vs 7800 25 colors) but for the sprites the SMS has only one 15 color palette while the 7800 can use any palette available.

 

 

 

 

Edited December 3, 2022 by Defender_2600

[+davidcalgary29]

On 9/28/2022 at 1:12 PM, JungleJet said:

Mr Do!

 

And Mr. Do!'s Castle, since we do not have a nice port on any Atari system. At the very least, we deserve a 7800 port of Pepper II or Painter.

[Goochman]

4 hours ago, davidcalgary29 said:

And Mr. Do!'s Castle, since we do not have a nice port on any Atari system. At the very least, we deserve a 7800 port of Pepper II or Painter.

8bit has a decent Mr Do's Cacstle release

 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Actually during last night's @ZeroPage Homebrew stream, @sramirez2008 and I thought that the 7800 could do a good version of Satan's Hollow? Even just using a pokey for the audio and copying that part from the 8-bit version would be good as that sounds pretty close to the arcade as is.

 

[+davidcalgary29]

3 hours ago, Goochman said:

8bit has a decent Mr Do's Cacstle release

 

I thought of that, as I actually have two (authentic) cartridges of the game, but it's too...squashed looking -- the play area looks like it only takes up 1/2 of the available screen. I think that the graphics could also have been nicer.

[+x=usr(1536)]

11 hours ago, MaximRecoil said:

Punch-Out had probably the most impressive graphics of any arcade game when it was released.

To give it its due, it was pretty impressive at the time.

11 hours ago, MaximRecoil said:

I can't think of any other arcade game released in 1984 or earlier that had such big sprites, not to mention sprite scaling/zooming effects and a see-through wire-frame character.

For the scaling and zooming plus big sprites experience, Sega's Sub-Roc 3D and Buck Rogers: Planet of Zoom were there a couple of years before Punch-Out.  Atari had I, Robot in 1983, and Nichibutsu's Tube Panic (also 1984) also uses scaling hardware.  There were a few others (including some vector games, though that feels like stretching things a bit far), but that's what I have off the top of my head.

 

As for the wireframe boxer: that was a neat way of being able to do first-person interaction with a third-person perspective.  The only other game I can think of where you would see a similar representation of the player's character is I, Robot, but that was usually only during the sequences where the maze was being entered and not (IIRC) in normal gameplay.

[MaximRecoil]

15 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

To give it its due, it was pretty impressive at the time.

For the scaling and zooming plus big sprites experience, Sega's Sub-Roc 3D and Buck Rogers: Planet of Zoom were there a couple of years before Punch-Out.  Atari had I, Robot in 1983, and Nichibutsu's Tube Panic (also 1984) also uses scaling hardware.  There were a few others (including some vector games, though that feels like stretching things a bit far), but that's what I have off the top of my head.

 

As for the wireframe boxer: that was a neat way of being able to do first-person interaction with a third-person perspective.  The only other game I can think of where you would see a similar representation of the player's character is I, Robot, but that was usually only during the sequences where the maze was being entered and not (IIRC) in normal gameplay.

I've often wondered where the graphics capabilities came from in those old arcade games, well, specifically Punch-Out and Super Punch-Out, because I'm not familiar with the hardware of the games you mentioned (I did try those Sega games you mentioned in MAME and they are indeed impressive, especially for 1982).

 

PO/SPO hardware didn't have a dedicated graphics chip. It had a plain old Z80A (4 MHz) as its main CPU, plus a 2A03 for music and most of the sound effects, and a VLM5030 for the announcer's voice and a couple of the sound effects. Those latter two processors are irrelevant because they are just for sound; they can both go dead and it doesn't affect the graphics at all. So it's just a Z80-based computer, like a ZX Spectrum, but obviously far more powerful in the graphics department.

 

Is it because it has a ton of TTL chips? I don't know how much RAM it has, but it has close to 200 LS74-series TTL chips.

[+x=usr(1536)]

58 minutes ago, MaximRecoil said:

I've often wondered where the graphics capabilities came from in those old arcade games, well, specifically Punch-Out and Super Punch-Out, because I'm not familiar with the hardware of the games you mentioned

Those games' hardware is unique (along with Arm Wrestling, also running on the same hardware), and looks to essentially be a variation of the Vs. System hardware.  I am not a Nintendo hardware expert, but my reading of the source for MAME's main Punch-Out driver (punchout.cpp) suggests that the main RAM has five chunks related specifically to different aspects of video generation: the info screen (top monitor), your opponent, the player, background scrolling, and RAM for the background.

Various bits within the memory areas occupied by those items can be flipped for sprite positioning, scrolling, and flipping; the monitor to display the graphics on also appears to be selected within this range. Graphics live in six regions in ROM, mapped into main memory.   From reading through the driver, one interesting thing cropped up: apparently, only one sprite is able to be scaled - or, at least, the driver only implements it for one.  Given that the player's character always remains on the same visual plane, this is likely used solely for the opponent.  Makes sense, given that the other guy needs to appear to be moving away from or towards the player when being KO'd, getting up, etc.   More on this below.

58 minutes ago, MaximRecoil said:

(I did try those Sega games you mentioned in MAME and they are indeed impressive, especially for 1982).

Sega was getting on the scaling wagon fairly early.  Forgot to also mention Turbo, which ran on the same hardware as Sub-Roc 3D and Buck Rogers; it was in arcades in 1981.  By 1985, they'd pretty much figured it out with the System 16 hardware and Space Harrier.

58 minutes ago, MaximRecoil said:

PO/SPO hardware didn't have a dedicated graphics chip. It had a plain old Z80A (4 MHz) as its main CPU, plus a 2A03 for music and most of the sound effects, and a VLM5030 for the announcer's voice and a couple of the sound effects. Those latter two processors are irrelevant because they are just for sound; they can both go dead and it doesn't affect the graphics at all. So it's just a Z80-based computer, like a ZX Spectrum, but obviously far more powerful in the graphics department.

Bear in mind that the 2A03 also handles some inputs and DAC communication; it's not just dedicated solely to audio.  I understand what you're getting at by being able to excise the audio section and still have a functional game, but given that the 2A03 does more than just make noises, removing it may be detrimental to other aspects of the hardware.

58 minutes ago, MaximRecoil said:

Is it because it has a ton of TTL chips? I don't know how much RAM it has, but it has close to 200 LS74-series TTL chips.

That's enitrely possible.  The transforms needed for scaling, zooming, etc. could be being done in the 74-series logic and passed back to the CPU for processing and display.  Looking at the MAME video driver for Punch Out, that's how it reads to me - but, again, I'm not super-expert when it comes to Nintendo hardware.

 

FWIW, both Tube Panic and I, Robot implemented external hardware of a similar type: Tube Panic did it in a bunch of 74-series logic, while I, Robot had what was called the 'mathbox', which was essentially a collection of bit-slicers dedicated to doing the heavy calculations.  It also used an external polygon generator to handle the actual assembly of the shape data into objects, but that's a bit removed from what we're talking about here.

[TIX]

 

Weirdly enough I never heard of Punch Out back then..

I cut my teeth on Frank Bruno's Boxing on the C64 which I thought was awesome !

 

In hind sight it's clunky, but a pretty decent knock off for 1985..

it also gives a good idea of how to handle this in one monitor.

[+x=usr(1536)]

And on a general note: if there's one game that the 7800 could probably have done well, it's Gaplus.

 

I'm one of the weirdos who actually prefers it to Galaga, and think that there's a lot of room to top the C-64 version.

[MaximRecoil]

6 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Those games' hardware is unique (along with Arm Wrestling, also running on the same hardware), and looks to essentially be a variation of the Vs. System hardware.

Vs. System hardware is just NES architecture. You can play Vs. System ROMs on an actual NES but the colors are screwed up, because the various Vs. games have different PPUs with different palettes (which was done as a sort of anti-piracy thing if I remember right, i.e., it prevented arcade operators from just buying one Vs. kit and then burning their own ROMs to get different games). There are NES emulators that handle them correctly though, and at least one of them (Vs. Super Mario Bros.) has been hacked to display correct colors on an NES. I've run it on my NES from an Everdrive flash cartridge.

 

12 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

From reading through the driver, one interesting thing cropped up: apparently, only one sprite is able to be scaled - or, at least, the driver only implements it for one.  Given that the player's character always remains on the same visual plane, this is likely used solely for the opponent.  Makes sense, given that the other guy needs to appear to be moving away from or towards the player when being KO'd, getting up, etc.

Yes, that's right. The opponent sprite gets scaled from smaller to larger as he walks from his corner to the center of the ring at the start of the round, and from larger to extra large if he wins (it zooms in even more while he laughs at you and the announcer says, "Come on! Stand up and fight!"). There are only ever two sprites in the game at any one time (unless you count the referee, which is barely animated and is only onscreen for a couple seconds at the start of each fight): the wire-frame boxer and the opponent. The biggest opponent sprite is Bear Hugger in SPO. Some people have speculated that Bear Hugger is the reason SPO only has 5 opponents instead of 6, because his sprite takes up more memory space than the smaller opponent sprites.

 

 

23 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Bear in mind that the 2A03 also handles some inputs and DAC communication; it's not just dedicated solely to audio.  I understand what you're getting at by being able to excise the audio section and still have a functional game, but given that the 2A03 does more than just make noises, removing it may be detrimental to other aspects of the hardware.

I can't imagine what the 2A03 does in a PO/SPO boardset other than generate audio. I've had one die on me before and the only symptom was screwed up left-channel sound and then 30 seconds later, mostly no left-channel sound at all. The game still looked and played exactly the same. Here's the thread I made about it back then:

 

https://forums.arcade-museum.com/threads/super-punch-out-left-sound-channel-stopped-working.391008/

 

The 2A03 is a combination of a modified 6502-type processor and a programmable sound generator. In the NES for which it was originally developed (as well as the Vs. System and PlayChoice-10 arcade boardsets), it serves as both the main CPU and the sound chip.

[+mksmith]

On 12/3/2022 at 3:02 PM, MaximRecoil said:

It's too bad the 7800 controller only has two buttons. You need three for Punch-Out and four for Super Punch-Out. I guess for Punch-Out you could press both buttons at the same time to act as a third button. I don't know how you'd get four buttons though, other than using both controller ports.

SNES2Atari ^TM 😁

[Corby]

[7800Knight]

44 minutes ago, Corby said:

 

Yes!  B.C.'s Quest for Tires would be a great game to have on the 7800.

[7800Knight]

Jailbreak from Konami.  That would be fun to see on the Atari 7800!

 

 

[JagChris]

What's the war strategy game for the 8bit that's similar in name to to 1942?

 

That's should have came out for the 7800.

[+x=usr(1536)]

6 hours ago, JagChris said:

What's the war strategy game for the 8bit that's similar in name to to 1942?

Eastern Front (1941).  Not to be confused with the movie 1941, starring John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd

[miker]

53 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Eastern Front (1941).  Not to be confused with the movie 1941, starring John Belushi and Dan Aykroyd

Source available, though: 

 

[JagChris]

Quest of the Avatar V, which supposedly the 8bit couldn't do.

 

All the SSI games. RPG. Strategy.

 

AR, City and Dungeon. Pay Phillip Price so he doesn't go anywhere else and have him complete the whole shebang.

Edited January 9, 2023 by JagChris

[+Karl G]

5 hours ago, JagChris said:

Quest of the Avatar V, which supposedly the 8bit couldn't do.

Ultima V is an interesting thought. The NES port had a lot of issues, some stemming from poor design choices. I'm definitely curious what limitations of the 8-bit systems made them decide against a port, and how feasible a 7800 version would have been.

[JagChris]

30 minutes ago, Karl G said:

Ultima V is an interesting thought. The NES port had a lot of issues, some stemming from poor design choices. I'm definitely curious what limitations of the 8-bit systems made them decide against a port, and how feasible a 7800 version would have been.

I don't know 1st hand but I seen a video comment from a guy who does both C64 and 8 bit programming that says the 5th Ultima would not have been possible on the 8 bit because it's sprite limitations or somesuch. Since I believe the 7800 has stronger sprite ability I am guessing it would be possible.

[7800Knight]

Some kind of graphic adventure game on the 7800 would be fun like King's Quest, Space Quest, Leisure Suit Larry or Hugo's House of Horrors.  Of course, as the 7800 doesn't have keyboard support, we'd have to use cursors and prompts much like the NES port of King's Quest 5.

[+karri]

2 hours ago, 7800Knight said:

Some kind of graphic adventure game on the 7800 would be fun like King's Quest, Space Quest, Leisure Suit Larry or Hugo's House of Horrors.  Of course, as the 7800 doesn't have keyboard support, we'd have to use cursors and prompts much like the NES port of King's Quest 5.

Exactly my thoughts. That is why I am writing my small contribution Wizzy for the 7800. It will run on a new kind of cart with 512k of memory, sound chip and extra RAM. Release date planned around Xmas.

[+Defender_2600]

For example Mortal Kombat II, I made this mockup a few years ago, 43 colors on screen.

 

 

 

Edited January 14, 2023 by Defender_2600

[+Defender_2600]

On 1/19/2020 at 9:30 PM, Shawn said:

 

Triple the player sprite size and make it into Mortal Kombat 7800? Hey, a guy can dream  

 

EDIT: Wasn't there a version or two of Double Dragon 5 that where 1 on 1 fighting games?

 

 

Damn! I was looking for my old Mortal Kombat II mockup so I reread your old post and now I know what you meant! Indeed some months ago I started playing with this graphic, I still have to work on it and eliminate 4 - 5 colors but the final result is very close to this below.   Background graphics in 160A and player sprites in 160B, 25 colors on screen.

 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Defender_2600