Puyo Puyo - Proof of concept, needs real hardware test

[Arlasoft]

Have been noodling with some puzzle game kernels after seeing the Dr Mario example. This one might have some promise, and certainly a solo version is definitely viable, but for two players I was curious as to how this looks on real hardware. 

 

In Stella, with phosphorus turned on and blending set quite high, it looks great. But in the Javatari emulator within 8bitworkshop the flicker is uncomfortable. Javatari seems to have some CRT options but none of them seem to make much difference at all.

 

I suspect a real 2600 on a CRT it will be somewhere in between? 

 

 

main (2).a26

Edited October 15, 2022 by Arlasoft

[Arlasoft]

How it looks in Stella....

[Ecernosoft]

5 hours ago, Arlasoft said:

Have been noodling with some puzzle game kernels after seeing the Dr Mario example. This one might have some promise, and certainly a solo version is definitely viable, but for two players I was curious as to how this looks on real hardware. 

 

In Stella, with phosphorus turned on and blending set quite high, it looks great. But in the Javatari emulator within 8bitworkshop the flicker is uncomfortable. Javatari seems to have some CRT options but none of them seem to make much difference at all.

 

I suspect a real 2600 on a CRT it will be somewhere in between? 

 

 

main (2).a26 4 kB · 5 downloads

I have a 7800 and a 2600, I can test for you if you want 😃

[Arlasoft]

2 minutes ago, Ecernosoft said:

I have a 7800 and a 2600, I can test for you if you want 😃

That'd be cool, thanks!

[Thomas Jentzsch]

Definitely too much flicker for me (but I am sensitive to flicker).

 

I think it would help a lot if you would use interleaved flicker.

[Ecernosoft]

4 minutes ago, Arlasoft said:

That'd be cool, thanks!

Sure thing!

 

I'll be testing first on the 7800, since the 2600 isn't set up (Since I have a 7800.)

 

Edit:  Just tested it. Looks fine, but has "timing problems" where you're not updating the colors at the right time.

 

Part of the red faces (On both sides) has some purple. You're updating the colors too quickly there.

 

Minus that, it looks great! Keep up the good work!

Edited October 15, 2022 by Ecernosoft

[Arlasoft]

45 minutes ago, Ecernosoft said:

Sure thing!

 

I'll be testing first on the 7800, since the 2600 isn't set up (Since I have a 7800.)

 

Edit:  Just tested it. Looks fine, but has "timing problems" where you're not updating the colors at the right time.

 

Part of the red faces (On both sides) has some purple. You're updating the colors too quickly there.

 

Minus that, it looks great! Keep up the good work!

Guess that's an emulation issue, i.e. timing is more forgiving. If I delay by even one cycle, the rest of the colours would be out.

[Arlasoft]

58 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Definitely too much flicker for me (but I am sensitive to flicker).

 

I think it would help a lot if you would use interleaved flicker.

I had a feeling it would be too much on a real system. Can't really insist everyone plays on Stella 😬 

 

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

18 minutes ago, Arlasoft said:

Guess that's an emulation issue, i.e. timing is more forgiving. If I delay by even one cycle, the rest of the colours would be out.

I think it might be a console issue. Stella emulates the different TIA flavors (see Developer options/TIA).

[Ecernosoft]

1 hour ago, Arlasoft said:

Guess that's an emulation issue, i.e. timing is more forgiving. If I delay by even one cycle, the rest of the colours would be out.

You bet.

One ICT 7800 beta works fine emulated, but crashes on Real hardware.

[JetSetIlly]

46 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I think it might be a console issue. Stella emulates the different TIA flavors (see Developer options/TIA).

I've never seen an example of a ROM where the TIA revision effects the timing of COLUP0 and COLUP1. Quickstep is an example of a ROM where the timing of COLUPF is affected and this sound like something similar for the player colour registers.

 

Is this a 7800 only phenomenon and not seen on any 2600 revision?

[Ecernosoft]

2 minutes ago, JetSetIlly said:

I've never seen an example of a ROM where the TIA revision effects the timing of COLUP0 and COLUP1. Quickstep is an example of a ROM where the timing of COLUPF is affected and this sound like something similar for the player colour registers.

 

Is this a 7800 only phenomenon and not seen on any 2600 revision?

My 7800 has glitches on some 2600 games that my 2600 can do fine. (Usually timing)

 

 What’s weird is that 2/3 of my DSP games (mappy and zoo keeper) crash on start and Cheitry runs with gfx glitches, all are not present on 2600, and on that they look and run fine.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Ecernosoft

[Thomas Jentzsch]

13 hours ago, JetSetIlly said:

I've never seen an example of a ROM where the TIA revision effects the timing of COLUP0 and COLUP1. Quickstep is an example of a ROM where the timing of COLUPF is affected and this sound like something similar for the player colour registers.

 

Is this a 7800 only phenomenon and not seen on any 2600 revision?

I wonder if this is just a CRT color blurr. Else, why should they look purple? Also haven't faced too fast TIAs yet.

[JetSetIlly]

11 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I wonder if this is just a CRT color blurr. Else, why should they look purple? Also haven't faced too fast TIAs yet.

Indeed. CRT blur sounds possible. Maybe an RGB mod issue?

[Arlasoft]

So is the consensus that the flickering is too much on real hardware to make two player viable? Bearing in mind even single player Puyo Puyo is normally player against an AI opponent.

 

I'll need to watch some videos of endless solo mode in Puyo Puyo Tetris to see how fun that might be, think there's a mode where you have two minutes to score as highly as possible too.

Edited October 16, 2022 by Arlasoft

[Bomberman94]

Here’s a picture of a real PAL Atari (2600 light 6er) on CRT. Flicker is there and let’s say „just barely bearable“ 😄

 

 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

2 hours ago, Arlasoft said:

So is the consensus that the flickering is too much on real hardware to make two player viable? Bearing in mind even single player Puyo Puyo is normally player against an AI opponent.

As it is now, yes. But if you interleave the flicker, it will become much less noticeable. Then it should be OK.

 

There exist multiple 96 pixel kernels, e.g. the Harmony Cart menu. The trick for interleaving is that you move the sprites +/- 8 pixel each line. So on each line you display three sprites on the left side and three on the right side. And in the next line the other three sprites are displayed. And each frame the opposite sprites at opposite lines are displayed.

[Ecernosoft]

16 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I wonder if this is just a CRT color blurr. Else, why should they look purple? Also haven't faced too fast TIAs yet.

I'm using an HDTV. so no, it really is the program.

[alex_79]

Color bleed and other artifacts might happen on digital TV too. In fact they can even look worse than on a CRT, due to the poor analog to digital video conversion done by the TV.

A screenshot would help figuring out what's happening.

 

Also, what are you using to load the rom on your 7800? You said that you encounter glitches with other 2600 games on that console, and that's definitely not normal.

Are you using a Concerto cart? If so, ensure to flash the latest firmware, as earlier versions had a bug that caused issues with 2600 games.