The joy of sticks.

[+Retrospect]

Hi everyone.

 

I'm thinking of continuing writing "Anubis" and I wanted Joystick control, but should we always program for Joystick-1?

Would it not make more sense to program the game for Joystick-2? As I think that would have been the least-used stick of the pair ... so should not be in too bad a shape?

And if I do this, would it affect anyone who has a converted Joystick with an adaptor, do they only address Joystick-1?

[matthew180]

I would expect a single-player program to support Joystick-1.  Or, just read both joysticks and use any valid input you find.  Having either stick "just work" would make me really happy as a player.

 

Trying to develop your software around the idea of not wearing out someone's joystick, or trying to consider the wear they may have on a specific joystick, is an exercise in always being wrong.  I don't understand why that would even be a design consideration.

[+Retrospect]

1 hour ago, matthew180 said:

I don't understand why that would even be a design consideration

It normally wouldn't be, were I to be programming for any other system but the '99 came with Joysticks that were paired to the single wire and Joy-2 almost always never got used, however, I do remember my Joy-1 eventually getting knackered through over-use ... So i wanted to know if it was viable to program for Joy-2 or would those new joysticks not read from that?

[pixelpedant]

The rationale is a fun one, but the reality is that an appreciable number of people today are going to use hacked joysticks or single-connector adapters that are hard-wired as Joystick 1.  That's always struck me as a pretty broken solution itself, as there are legacy games that only use Joystick 2 (e.g., Protector 2, Star Trek SOS, if I recall correctly).  But it is what it is, and it exists.  So I think it makes sense to develop for what's out there. 

[+Retrospect]

Yeah, it's probably not a big deal really I'll just stick a variable in there instead of a number when addressing the joystick, that has 1 or 2 for it's value based on user input at the title screen. 

 

I like to think of the "real iron" people out there when I'm making games, it's sometimes too easy for me to forget with me using emulation.  

[+OLD CS1]

I am a little less concerned.  I always use joystick 1 for single-player input, and joystick 2 for a second player.  It makes my life easier to address JOYST and KEY units based upon the current player number.  But then, I guess it is just as easy to have a variable which holds the preferred joystick number.

 

https://forums.atariage.com/blogs/entry/17054-ti-basic-search-for-a-fast-and-easy-input-routine-for-games/

[JB]

5 hours ago, matthew180 said:

Or, just read both joysticks and use any valid input you find.  Having either stick "just work" would make me really happy as a player.

This is the way.

I always appreciated games that did this when I was younger, as it meant I never had to swap joysticks when I grabbed the wrong identical remote of the pair.

[ti99iuc]

Cataloging software (and also during the compiling games sessions with @tmop69) we found a lot of French games used Joystick #2 in the eighties and so thought to set them again to #1 in the compiled version thinking to the use in the Emulators or Mister. 
 

Instead, I love how Parsec uses both Joysticks at the same time, I use this game always also as a tester of the controllers 😛 

Edited October 21, 2022 by ti99iuc

[+save2600]

+1 sticking to port #1 for Player 1 or requesting on a menu screen. As above, frustrating when you have to play guessing games with joystick ports. As a C64 owner as well, learned to keep both sticks plugged in at all times long ago. But it can still be an unFUN joke trying to get a game started sometimes... what with the Return and function keys, RUN/STOP, the spacebar, either fire button, etc.

 

Even with swapped joystick ports on the TI, guess we have little to complain about comparatively. 😀

[+Retrospect]

1 hour ago, save2600 said:

+1 sticking to port #1 for Player 1 or requesting on a menu screen. As above, frustrating when you have to play guessing games with joystick ports. As a C64 owner as well, learned to keep both sticks plugged in at all times long ago. But it can still be an unFUN joke trying to get a game started sometimes... what with the Return and function keys, RUN/STOP, the spacebar, either fire button, etc.

 

Even with swapped joystick ports on the TI, guess we have little to complain about comparatively. 😀

Yeah I had that with my C64 , the guessing game.  
Far as I know though, the '99 has but ONE joystick port with two knackered-from-new joysticks on a single wire, am I right? 
Are we to assume that joystick-1, the one that always gets used above number-2, is always going to be in operable state?

[+Lee Stewart]

11 hours ago, Retrospect said:

Yeah, it's probably not a big deal really I'll just stick a variable in there instead of a number when addressing the joystick, that has 1 or 2 for it's value based on user input at the title screen. 

 

I like to think of the "real iron" people out there when I'm making games, it's sometimes too easy for me to forget with me using emulation.  

 

If you are using TIB or XB, you could do something like the following at startup:

 

100 KU=1
200 PRINT "Press the Fire button"
300 CALL KEY(1,K1,S1)
400 CALL KEY(2,K2,S2)
500 IF S1+S2=0 THEN 300
600 IF K1+K2<>17 THEN 300
700 IF K1=18 THEN 900
800 KU=2
900 REM ...

 

 

...lee

[+save2600]

3 hours ago, Retrospect said:

Yeah I had that with my C64 , the guessing game.  
Far as I know though, the '99 has but ONE joystick port with two knackered-from-new joysticks on a single wire, am I right? 
Are we to assume that joystick-1, the one that always gets used above number-2, is always going to be in operable state?

Yes, one joystick port and the original sticks were paired into it. But... you're kind of assuming most people are still using those original TI Wired Remote Controllers*, the tiny Amiga sticks or the Super Stik's that were available BITD and paired into the single port. May have been the case at one time, and would agree that an overused stick likely doesn't work as well as the underused, but today... I might assume most people into gaming on the TI are using a Wico adapter or one of the new adapters currently available you see on eBay and elsewhere that allows for 1 or 2 standard Atari joysticks to be plugged in. Or some hacked concoction (ex. splicing up and rewiring an Atari/Sega extension cable) which is really easy to do, especially for hobbyists into these old computers. Schematics/wiring diagrams easily found online.
 

A majority of people relegated to playing with excessively worn TI (or whatever) joysticks where one might be junk.. too many options where that scenario just doesn't make sense to me. Between joystick repair kits, conductive pens, NOS or "good" TI sticks still being sold, Wico type adapters that allow for better sticks to be used, hacked joysticks/extension cables, etc.

 

*believe I saw only ONE single person on here claiming they actually like TI's original sticks in a poll or conversation once. ha

[+Retrospect]

True, yes. See I'm not strictly an hardware guy.  I do have the hardware it's just unused as I've lost leads for it, and we don't really have anywhere for the TI and a telly.  Shame, but I still code on the emulation.  I do use a joystick myself though, I got "The64 Mini" from a local shop and found it to be more useful if I just used it's USB Joystick on my TI emulator in the laptop.

 

Also to note; I am aware people are using the Wico adaptor sticks and other sticks, which is why I wanted to know , if I didn't program for Joy-1 would it mess things up, with what everyone has said in mind I'll just go with Joy-1 regardlessly.  

[+OLD CS1]

On 10/21/2022 at 12:12 PM, save2600 said:

*believe I saw only ONE single person on here claiming they actually like TI's original sticks in a poll or conversation once. ha

Yeah, me.  And I like Zero Zap.  Wanna fight about it?

 

22 hours ago, Retrospect said:

I got "The64 Mini" from a local shop and found it to be more useful if I just used it's USB Joystick on my TI emulator in the laptop.

I got an Amiga 500 Mini "THE A500" with the CD32 USB joypad "THE Gamepad" and this thing is tits!

[+FarmerPotato]

At a public event, people go through different games quickly, and it's frustrating when the joystick does nothing, because of all the variations mentioned. 

People will give up and walk away, if the previous player left them the "wrong" joystick in view. Or moved the best joystick to the port it needed. (Then there's the folks who figure that the TI fire button goes toward them.)

 

There's no right answer for this, but if both joysticks did the same thing, it's the least disruptive.  Until they switch to a game that uses exclusively #1 or #2.

 

I make sure the Alpha Lock mod is done, one less insanity.  My game Bubble Plane checks for Alpha Lock and waits for you to un-lock it!

 

[+FarmerPotato]

I guess there is a further option:

 

If the game truly wants you to use Joystick #1:  before it starts, it could detect that you pressed Fire on Joystick #2, and tell you to switch. 

[+OLD CS1]

2 hours ago, FarmerPotato said:

My game Bubble Plane checks for Alpha Lock and waits for you to un-lock it!

I see this on several games and do not like it.  If I am using a QI motherboard or a keyboard with the diode fix, the idea is to not have to muck around with the ALPHA LOCK key, but now I am forced to do so.  I know, I know, I am an edge case, but that does not make it any less annoying.

 

2 hours ago, FarmerPotato said:

My game Bubble Plane checks for Alpha Lock and waits for you to un-lock it!

I found at my exhibits they will grab for the next available joystick.  I think they are used to the idea of multiple controllers with their own consoles.  Though, I think the Wii will respond pre-game to any controller, but then require you switch.

 

They do, as you noted, often hold Atari and TI joysticks in the wrong orientation.

 

[+jedimatt42]

I would imagine that joystick 2 will have suffered from foam rot the same as joystick 1. I don't think it is a function of use, but a function of age. 

[JB]

In mine the conductive ink adhered to the contacts and when I tried to open the stick to see if it was fixable, the ink peeled off the flex circuit.

[+Retrospect]

So how many of us have "real iron" setup with a Joystick that works?   Most of my games are Joystick only.  Are there more real iron users without a stick?

[+TheBF]

2 hours ago, Retrospect said:

So how many of us have "real iron" setup with a Joystick that works?   Most of my games are Joystick only.  Are there more real iron users without a stick?

Still have my originals. I am not a big gamer so they didn't get a lot of use.

[Asmusr]

I only have original TI joysticks (2 pairs). They all work fine.

[broettger]

I have the original ti sticks, but never use them.   I find the wico or other Atari style sticks to be much more comfortable 

[fabrice montupet]

The TI joysticks are one of the worst joysticks that I've ever used, their ergonomics and quality are a horror. I got mine in 1982 and I was so disappointed that they were quickly put back in their packaging, then forgotten. So, I have always played games using the keyboard only. Later, with my other computers I got better joysticks from Konix, Thrustmaster or Logitech but, with the 99/4A, I was so familiar to play games with the keyboard that, still today, I continue to play like this. 

[digdugnate]

11 hours ago, Retrospect said:

So how many of us have "real iron" setup with a Joystick that works?   Most of my games are Joystick only.  Are there more real iron users without a stick?

Real Iron here, I do have the original Pain-Sticks though usually they spend their time in a storage tote.  I'd much rather use an Atari CX40 stick (Best-refurb with mechanical contacts) or my NES-style pad- I've got a WICO splitter.

 

Zero-Zap is a sorely underrated game imo.

Edited October 26, 2022 by digdugnate