If you could change one thing about the 520ST/STM/STFM......

[+DarkLord]

19 hours ago, Zogging Hell said:

Ah yeah I see, kind of the same effect you get on some TVs that don't really like the ST's video signal. Must admit I'd prefer the mono screen for the Stacy anyway, I wonder if there are any Kindle like paper like panels that could be swapped in. Fair shouts for the attempt that early though

 

Yeah, I was unhappy enough with it that, after all my "trials 'n errors" I swapped it back out.

 

Now though, things have changed. You really should look at Derkoms' "Summer STacy project"

thread at Exxos's Atari Forums - his STacy is world class amazing! 

 

https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3009&start=170

 

Big long thread, but on the 18th page, he's got it all together and shows a video. Awesome stuff.

 

[Zogging Hell]

18 hours ago, DarkLord said:

Now though, things have changed. You really should look at Derkoms' "Summer STacy project"

thread at Exxos's Atari Forums - his STacy is world class amazing! 

 

https://www.exxosforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=3009&start=170

 

Big long thread, but on the 18th page, he's got it all together and shows a video. Awesome stuff.

 

I did read some of that (I lurk there regularly but haven't posted), when he started I think, but somehow have missed the rest. Crikey there is some food for thought there! Particularly like the Cosmo ex use of the spare floppy port, although seeing the battery replacement has made me worry about the one in mine again. Screen looks really good!

[+DarkLord]

I think Derkom's STacy is what all the other STacy's want to be when they grow up.  

 

[+adamchevy]

On 12/23/2022 at 7:57 PM, Keatah said:

Jus that it had a WCS that had to be loaded on startup was indicative of proto-status. I had an early unit, SN less the 400 IIRC and the whole thing felt very experimental. In no way was it ready for primetime.

 

Integrated graphics is a good thing. Elegant. Low power consumption is key. And compare it against the 4090 which has issues with melting power connectors. Draws something 500 watts of power.

 

When I recommend new PCs I always start with integrated graphics. Then there's really only 2 or 3 choices for add-in graphics cards. Low, Medium, and High. The market may have hundreds of over-granulated choices available, but you needn't look further than those three levels.

 

I recall installing my 1st graphics card in a 486 was rather straightforward and trouble-free. Plugged it in and away I went. Windows 3.1 drivers worked the first time around. I wouldn't have driver and irq/dma issues till the 3D world got underway.

 

I hated that ribbon thing. And I refuse to use a cloud-based office package.

So far I haven’t had any cable melting issues thankfully with my 4090 and my cable mod cable.  The first graphics card I installed was in a Pentium 3 system, it was a Voodoo2 from 3DFX.    

[thedocbwarren]

Having met a person that was part of the Sierra design project (probably the main designer actually) I wish that had been released instead of what was.  In fact it would have been much better than the Amiga (but cost much more than ST did.)

 

I WISH they had upgrade the STe in the day with a 68020, high res video more in line with what was possible then, also support VGA.  Full out chipset for sound and video would have been killer.  

[Megalomaniac]

My feeling is that the STe had to be manufacturable for much the same price as the Amiga in order to be competitive. The released hardware was quite close to an A500 in specs and upgradeability, only the 16 colours per scanline limit was left, but with no software making use of the upgrades. Using an 020 instead would have added at least £100 to the cost, as well as further ruining compatibility and benefitting almost no existing games. Even then, if you weren't already an Atari loyalist or former ST user it was hard to jsutify getting an STe instead of an A500 - the Amiga had as many games as the ST by then, with some that used the Amiga's advantages and none using the STe's

[Zogging Hell]

On 9/10/2023 at 12:45 PM, Megalomaniac said:

My feeling is that the STe had to be manufacturable for much the same price as the Amiga in order to be competitive. The released hardware was quite close to an A500 in specs and upgradeability, only the 16 colours per scanline limit was left, but with no software making use of the upgrades. Using an 020 instead would have added at least £100 to the cost, as well as further ruining compatibility and benefitting almost no existing games. Even then, if you weren't already an Atari loyalist or former ST user it was hard to jsutify getting an STe instead of an A500 - the Amiga had as many games as the ST by then, with some that used the Amiga's advantages and none using the STe's

I think that is the reason for both the ST and Amiga's eventual failure. They needed a next gen update, but to do the substantial update needed at that time increased the cost a lot. Most of their users were not going to pay more than the £299 - £399 cost for either so they were limited in what they could do with that budget, hence the STe and Amiga 500+. It also explains why the Falcon failed (cost too much initially, despite it being a proper next gen machine) and the Amiga 1200 was nearer that cost and did better for a while. There was just a hard limit on what their user base would pay, while the consoles were cheaper (subsidised by the huge cartridge costs) and PC and Mac owners were used to paying through the nose so really didn't notice.

[zzip]

3 hours ago, Zogging Hell said:

I think that is the reason for both the ST and Amiga's eventual failure. They needed a next gen update, but to do the substantial update needed at that time increased the cost a lot. Most of their users were not going to pay more than the £299 - £399 cost for either so they were limited in what they could do with that budget, hence the STe and Amiga 500+. It also explains why the Falcon failed (cost too much initially, despite it being a proper next gen machine) and the Amiga 1200 was nearer that cost and did better for a while. There was just a hard limit on what their user base would pay, while the consoles were cheaper (subsidised by the huge cartridge costs) and PC and Mac owners were used to paying through the nose so really didn't notice.

The problem was the PC clone market exploded, creating lots of price competition and economies of scale.    There was a tipping point where you could get more power for less money in the PC space than you could in the 680x0 space, and at that point the ST/Amiga days were numbered.

[Zogging Hell]

16 minutes ago, zzip said:

The problem was the PC clone market exploded, creating lots of price competition and economies of scale.    There was a tipping point where you could get more power for less money in the PC space than you could in the 680x0 space, and at that point the ST/Amiga days were numbered.

Yeah absolutely, I paid £799 for my Milan Atari clone sporting a 68040, 4gb hard drive and 32mb of memory (admittedly low production run computer but the best the Atari world had at the time) in 1999. About two years later I had to fork out for a PC for a programming course and paid £599 for a 550mhz Cyrix clone with 66mb of memory, intergrated graphics and a monitor thrown in. It was terrible and already super outdated, but the power/price had moved into a different league from the Atari world.

[+Stephen]

5 hours ago, zzip said:

The problem was the PC clone market exploded, creating lots of price competition and economies of scale.    There was a tipping point where you could get more power for less money in the PC space than you could in the 680x0 space, and at that point the ST/Amiga days were numbered.

Don't underestimate how much compatibility played a factor too.  As cool as it was having multiple computers to choose from in the 8-bit and 16-bit days, can you imagine if modern game publishers had to support a dozen machines, all completely incompatible with each other still?  Granted, we would hopefully not have 5,000 games that look identical because they use a point & click build engine, but I digress.

[zzip]

15 hours ago, Stephen said:

Don't underestimate how much compatibility played a factor too.  As cool as it was having multiple computers to choose from in the 8-bit and 16-bit days, can you imagine if modern game publishers had to support a dozen machines, all completely incompatible with each other still?  Granted, we would hopefully not have 5,000 games that look identical because they use a point & click build engine, but I digress.

The 16-bit era was the time when they really started building games on different platforms from the same codebase.   You can see this in all the complaints of Amiga gamers of getting "straight ST ports",  but also the Apple IIgs versions were identical (but ran poorer).  PC versions also often seemed to be built from the same code base, just with color downgrades for EGA and addition of keyboard game controls

 

There's even more active gaming platforms today:  Switch, PS4, PS5, Xbox One, Xbox Series XS, Windows, MacOS, Linux, Android, iOS.    Some are similar, but you still need to support several different graphics systems to cover them all:   DirectX, Vulkan, OpenGL, whatever the Playstation uses.   So I think publishers are willing to support more platforms if the sales are there,   but for ST/Amiga the sales simply stopped being there.     Also the rise of CD-ROM gaming didn't help.   Few ST/Amiga owners had CD-ROMs,  they didn't have the equivalent of VGA graphics, except for the newest Amiga/Falcon models that almost nobody bought.   It was just time to move on.

[ST Lou]

Interesting thread.  As an original ST fanboy, I'm now getting back into "vintage computing" for the nostalgia of it. 

 

Right off the bat, I loved the aesthetics of the ST line; thought it was the best looking "home" computer for the day.  Still do.  My two cents worth:  In a "perfect ST world," here's what I would have liked to have seen the ST start with (I know much of it is unrealistic but hey, it's my fantasy):

1. Double sided floppy using standard faceplate/socketed controller for easy upgrade to 1.44mb.  Single-sided drives were too limiting and crippled the entire ST line for it's lifetime.  No case hacking required.
2. 1 Meg RAM in SIMMs for easy upgrade.  Having to kludge in aftermarket upgrades, cutting traces, etc. was largely unreliable.  A big turnoff for me.
3. Detachable keyboard, like in the Mega ST line, with mechanical switches.  The Mega ST keyboard was awesome in my opinion.  Even if not detachable, at least use real mechanical switches instead of mushy ones.
4. No mouse/joystick ports on the bottom of the machine.  Enough said...
5. Vector font GDOS in ROM.  Begin with 512K ROMs to allow headroom for future growth.
6. SCSI instead of ACSI.  I know specs may not have been standardized in time...
7. Socketed CPU for easier upgrades/accelerators.
8. No crappy metal shielding.  Coat the inside of the case like Macs did
9. Output for one monitor with up to 1024x768 res, 256 colors.  I know, again ahead of VGA standard, but if Atari was inventing graphics modes anyway...
10. Stereo sound chip with access for external speakers
11. Get rid of all the power bricks.  Build the computer power supply stout enough to also power floppy/hard disk drives.  Combine the power connection along with the data connector like Mac did (at least for floppies)
12. Something like Appletalk for early networking.
13. Memory not limited to 4 megs for future upgrades.
14. Real expansion slot instead of the infrequently used cartridge port

I know an ST like this would have likely been WAY prohibitively costly to produce and sell and competitive timelines almost assuredly would not support.  Maybe impossible to build for the time.  But in hindsight, it would have been beyond awesome!

 

And if Atari could have just found a practical way to curtail piracy (piracy absolutely KILLED Atari.  I remember club meetings that consisted primarily of software copying parties - I was guilty too), who knows where we'd be with the line today...

[thedocbwarren]

Just my two cents but I think the Mega STe should have had better graphics built in and a 68020.  They had a lot of great enhancements with it but having to buy and find a VME card to use better graphics was a bit much.  Also the 020 would have been a nicer boost vs the 68000 16mhz.  
But it is a nice machine.  More graphics modes would have been nice but they didn’t want to butcher TT sales.  

[+DarkLord]

Can you imagine how different things would have been if Atari had just included

1 more video mode... 320x200, 256 colors, from the start, in the ST?   

 

 

[thedocbwarren]

35 minutes ago, DarkLord said:

Can you imagine how different things would have been if Atari had just included

1 more video mode... 320x200, 256 colors, from the start, in the ST?   

 

 

There were some cool ideas for video in the prototypes they did not continue with (ex. Sierra.)  So I know one of the former chip designers that worked there for years and participated (may have designed) prototype ST hardware (including video.)  He’s not here any more but he worked on some great ideas that would have been a bit closer to the Amiga if they pursued.  I’m thinking what he told me was the Sierra project. Video and sound would have been better basically. 

[Cyprian]

4 hours ago, thedocbwarren said:

There were some cool ideas for video in the prototypes they did not continue with (ex. Sierra.)  So I know one of the former chip designers that worked there for years and participated (may have designed) prototype ST hardware (including video.)  He’s not here any more but he worked on some great ideas that would have been a bit closer to the Amiga if they pursued.  I’m thinking what he told me was the Sierra project. Video and sound would have been better basically. 

interesting story. Do you remember his name?

[zzip]

12 hours ago, DarkLord said:

Can you imagine how different things would have been if Atari had just included

1 more video mode... 320x200, 256 colors, from the start, in the ST?   

 

 

Might have a bit much for the original ST, but a mode like that should have been added to STe (along with 640x200x16 color)

[thedocbwarren]

8 hours ago, Cyprian said:

interesting story. Do you remember his name?

Yes, his name is Benjamin Calpo.  He left Atari before the release of the final ST.  Can confirm that the Amy was supposed to power sound in the ST.  

[thedocbwarren]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Might have a bit much for the original ST, but a mode like that should have been added to STe (along with 640x200x16 color)

Agreed and I think the STe (especially the Mega STe) should have had much better graphics modes available. 

[Cyprian]

3 hours ago, thedocbwarren said:

Yes, his name is Benjamin Calpo.  He left Atari before the release of the final ST.  Can confirm that the Amy was supposed to power sound in the ST.  

ok, are you sure he was involved besides AMY chip somehow into Atari ST

[thedocbwarren]

20 minutes ago, Cyprian said:

ok, are you sure he was involved besides AMY chip somehow into Atari ST

Absolutely.  He was a top designer for them.  He predated Tremeil’s takeover but worked with his son Sam.  This is all from the conversation.  The used a lot of the designs but remade them super quickly in 72 hours after.  I had wondered how they managed to build something that quickly and I now know how.  

[ijor]

21 hours ago, DarkLord said:

1 more video mode... 320x200, 256 colors, from the start, in the ST?   

That's not feasible on the ST (or on the STE for that matter) without a major change to the hardware architecture. The ST video system is designed to process data at 4MB/s. For 256 colors you would need twice the bandwidth. This is not just a Video Chip (SHIFTER) limitation.

 

The VGA board, as most PC video boards from that time, has discrete RAM on the graphics board itself. This is a completely different design than the "shared" video memory used in the ST.

[+DarkLord]

Folks, I was just doing the "fantasy" land thing when I mentioned the 320x200, 256 color video mode

for the ST when it first launched. I understand that fairy drastic changes would have been involved.

 

My point wasn't about the viability, or difficulty, but rather the *impact* upon the playing field if from

the "get go" the ST had a low res 256 color mode. Even if due to performance issues, not all 256 colors

could have been utilized without a serious hit, imagine a lot of the games using 32, 64, etc instead of

just a flat base 16 colors. Yes, I know a lot of the better coded games use tricks to get more colors on

screen anyway.

 

IF the video mode was there though, imagine as the faster machines came along and users were adding

accelerators what an impact it could have been in so many areas, even above and beyond games.

 

Just so much dreaming on my part, but in an alternate reality somewhere, that first ST had all the

great suggestions from this message thread and it be rockin'...!  

 

[Lynxpro]

On 10/24/2022 at 10:41 AM, oky2000 said:

In interviews Amiga team were scared that Atari would just take the technology and do something else with it, perhaps a premium games console like the original design was based on. It would be interesting to know how much such a console would have cost Atari to manufacture, it would only have 128k RAM vs 512k RAM inside the 520ST or even 700kb of the "512kb Amiga 1000" which is quite a significant saving in 1985, not so much an issue by Xmas 1987 due to the number of 512k/640k PCs forcing the number of DRAMs produced to massively increase.

 

Most of what the Amiga team said in interviews is/was BS. They [allegedly] defrauded Warner Inc owned Atari Inc by returning the $500K loan - with money Commodore provided them - and claiming they couldn't get the Amiga Lorraine chipset to work. What they were scared of was becoming part of Atari Inc because of defaulting on the $500K loan and thus not profiting off their work. Selling themselves to Commodore gained them cash. 

 

They can blame the Tramiels all the want to but they would've ended up part of the remnants of Atari Inc which became the separate Atari Games Inc/Corp that Warner held onto until selling off to Namco awhile later. So the Amiga Lorraine chipset could've ended up with Atari Games as a low-cost chipset option for use in arcade games considering Atari Games already had more powerful chips of their own in the Atari System 1 arcade games [Marble Madness, Road Runner, Gauntlet, etc.]. Warner could've also licensed it or shared the rights with Tramiel's Atari Corp for inclusion in the ST. Personally, I think the Atari Systems 1 graphics chip would've been better since it was capable of 256 colors on-screen at once out of a 1,024 color palette and could generate far more sprites and at higher resolutions than either what Amiga or the ST could natively do. The revision chip upped the resolution and the palette to 4,096 colors.

 

Of course, had original Atari Inc remained in one piece, the plan was to release a 128K RAM version of the Amiga Lorraine chipset as the code-named "Mickey" 16-Bit cartridge based console for Christmas 1985. The original Atari Inc/Amiga Corp agreement stated Atari Inc had to wait 1 full year after the console's release to release a keyboard for it and/or stand-alone computers [this was to give Amiga Corp freedom to license the design to other computer manufacturers] but that would've been nullified by Atari Inc's acquisition of Amiga Corp which would've immediately freed them up to release the Lorraine as the 1800XL/1850XLD once the designs were completed and conditions in the market allowed for it to happen. It would've also finished up much faster since there wouldn't have been any court filings which in our timeline hampered both the ST's and Amiga's development as Commodore and Atari Corp fought each other in court at the same time... 

[Spaced Cowboy]

The one thing that I'd change would be to give the ST a standard expansion socket that was actually useful on the base machine. I know Atari didn't get much out of the 800XL PBI but they didn't really give it a chance - there was the PBI on the 800XL, it wasn't on any of the other machines, and as soon as the 130XE came along it morphed into the cartridge/ECI port. That "bad experience" doesn't really count IMHO.

 

If they had just made the cartridge port read/write, put enough of the data/address lines on it, and put it into a larger RAM space, it could have made a huge difference. The MIDI ports were really forward-thinking on the ST, but they dropped the ball wrt the cartridge port. Maybe the intern got that one...

 

Alternatively, keeping the CPU socketed, and maybe putting 4 mounting posts strategically around it - then CPU upgrades would be more like the Amiga... 

 

Basically the ST was a sealed box, you got what you bought, and despite a plethora of ports, none of them were particularly *useful* for significantly upgrading the machine. That led to a lower life-time IMO. The promise of expandability (even if it's never used) is a powerful draw when you're spending loadsamoney on a new computer.