The Last Commercial 8bit?

[oracle_jedi]

The recent discussion on the merits of a Commodore 128, over in the Commodore 8bit forum, reminded me that when it came to market, it was eclipsed by 16-bit Atari 520ST, which itself was followed by a series of affordable 16-bit machines including the Amiga 500, Archimedes and a multitude of cheap PC clones.  The computer magazines of the era quickly lost interest in 8bits as their focus shifted to the newer 16-bit models, even if the 8bits continued to dominate the software sales charts due to their larger install bases.

 

And 8-bit computers continued to be introduced well after 1985.  

 

Including the Apple IIGS in 1986, Cambridge Z88 in 1987 and the Sam Coupe in 1989.   Plus Sinclair, Atari, Commodore and others released repackaging of their 8bits well into the late 80s - wasn't the C64GS a 1990 release?  And then there was the Amstrad PCW range, which I think remained Z80 CP/M based system throughout most of its commercial life, with later models appearing the 90s.

 

So what was the last commercial 8bit? [1]  Did the 8bit remain a viable platform for substantially new hardware in developing markets long after North America and Western Europe adopted 16bits?  Or was it just a case of Atari 800XE style repackaging and cost-reducing what had become obsolete in the home markets?

 

[1] Not including embedded systems or the C64 mini style retro systems which I think are essentially emulated on a RISC processor.

 

 

[tschak909]

Probably the MGT Sam Coupe, 1989.

 

[carlsson]

Yes, Amstrad held onto Z80 for very long:

 

1990: GX-4000 console and computer relative CPC464 Plus and CPC6128 Plus

1992: NC-100 notebook with sequels

1994: PCW16

 

On the 6502 side, the handheld console Watara Supervision (1992) has a 65SC02, not sure if there were any later, unique products except for modern day SoC machines which seem to be based on 6502 with own additions, see the Chinese "Vii" type machines. But we already said to skip those.

[Krebizfan]

The Japanese pocket computers continued to use Z-80 processors. The last introduction with a date I was able to confirm was 2001 for the Sharp PC-G850V with mention of a VS which presumably was later. If the Z-88 qualifies, these should too. There was also the Brother Super PowerNote from 1996. The TI-84 graphing calculators are Z-80 computers with strange keyboards. 

 

The Tiger Learning Computer could have had a long life if Apple hadn't withdrawn the license. 

[The Usotsuki]

I used to have an Apple //e, made in 1987.  Its CPU was a 65SC02.  They're just 65C02s in their original form without the Rockwell extensions.

[JamesD]

VTECH had a some portables in the early 90s.  PC4, PC5, and others???
I think Amstrad wins the prize here for the PCW, as it wasn't discontinued until 1998.
 

[DeathAdderSF]

On 11/7/2022 at 6:32 PM, Krebizfan said:

The Tiger Learning Computer could have had a long life if Apple hadn't withdrawn the license. 

 

As a lifelong Apple II fan, I would've loved to have seen the "TLC" succeed. Or, at least, have been given a proper chance. They definitely would've had to do something, anything, to improve its terrible keyboard, however. I mean, seriously: the keyboard is useless; an absolute nightmare to try and type on. That aside, the whole "ROMdisk / RAMdisk" concept is so kooky for the Apple II line that I find it charming. And the fact that an internet add-on was advertised and apparently even prototyped? I'd dig on being able to try that out, in spite of how extremely limited it would be.

 

It took me over ten years of hunting to bag a Tiger Learning Computer, but the wait was worth it. It's so curious and downright weird, compared to every other Apple II machine I've used. But seeing as how I'm locked in to the paltry six released program cartridges, the experience is sadly fairly shallow.

Edited November 10, 2022 by DeathAdderSF

[SlidellMan]

I cannot tell you the very last, but I can tell you that one of the last was the MSX Turbo R.

 

[oracle_jedi]

9 hours ago, DeathAdderSF said:

 

As a lifelong Apple II fan, I would've loved to have seen the "TLC" succeed. Or, at least, have been given a proper chance. They definitely would've had to do something, anything, to improve its terrible keyboard, however. I mean, seriously: the keyboard is useless; an absolute nightmare to try and type on. That aside, the whole "ROMdisk / RAMdisk" concept is so kooky for the Apple II line that I find it charming. And the fact that an internet add-on was advertised and apparently even prototyped? I'd dig on being able to try that out, in spite of how extremely limited it would be.

 

It took me over ten years of hunting to bag a Tiger Learning Computer, but the wait was worth it. It's so curious and downright weird, compared to every other Apple II machine I've used. But seeing as how I'm locked in to the paltry six released program cartridges, the experience is sadly fairly shallow.

 

I remember seeing the TLCs for sale at the Tiger Direct Outlet store in Naperville, IL back around 1997.

 

I didn't know it at the time, but I am guessing that's where they dumped the unsold stock after the license deal with Apple was rescinded.  I thought it was an interesting idea then, and I still do now.  It's a shame it didn't get a proper chance.  And I think it probably was the last product brought to market as a "computer" (versus a calculator, many of which are functionally indistinguishable from a simple computer) that was wholly based on 8-bit technology.

 

I didn't buy one.  At that time, on any given weekend, you were more than likely to find an Apple IIc or IIe at a yard sale for the cash you had in your pocket.   Those days are long gone.

 

[carlsson]

I did consider the Turbo-R but thought it had a 16-bit CPU and only used the Z80 as a co-pro. Then I read up on the R800 where it says to feature a superset of the Z80, and I'm not sure if the machines really have dual CPUs, and in that case if the vast majority of MSX software runs on the newer CPU in compatibility mode, or on the older CPU in native mode.

[DeathAdderSF]

9 hours ago, oracle_jedi said:

At that time, on any given weekend, you were more than likely to find an Apple IIc or IIe at a yard sale for the cash you had in your pocket.

 

True! I remember passing on a complete Apple IIc with monochrome monitor for just $5 at the swap meet. Would've had no use for the monitor, but could have kept the IIc for spare parts, at least.

 

Instead, I bought two Mattel Aquarius machines + mini expander + tape drive + a couple of cart games for the same amount. Funny thing, as I was handing over the money the guy asked, "Are you sure you want it? This thing sucks." I wanted it all right. And I got what I deserved, 'cuz the Aquarius is absolute trash.

Edited November 11, 2022 by DeathAdderSF

[Keatah]

 

In the 90's I was always on the lookout for Apple II parts and consoles and cards. Everything except the software. I correctly guessed that sooner or later the software would show up online.

 

There was more hardware being thrown away in the dumpsters than I could retrieve. Schools and village IT departments were great sources. At that early time I only had spare parts in mind. Built up a pile that I could pull parts from for keeping my original consoles in working order. Turns out the II series is pretty reliable and I've only had to dig into it on rare occasion. We'll see how it goes in the next 10 years!

 

It was so weird seeing the consoles (ex. II+ and //e) I lusted after as a kid, worshiped and respected, learned on, played billions of games on, programmed, and ran a BBS on, being tipped by the skid into a truck..

 

On 11/10/2022 at 1:35 PM, oracle_jedi said:

At that time, on any given weekend, you were more than likely to find an Apple IIc or IIe at a yard sale for the cash you had in your pocket.   Those days are long gone.

Very true. Software ReRuns, in Schaumburg, was giving away //e Platinums. I took a few 2 or 3 and left the rest on one random day. Came back some weeks later and they were still there. The guy, who was just short of going senile, told me to take the rest. And if I did he'd throw in some big box PC games. So I did. All for free or the $10 I had on me.

 

And in the early days of ebay I stripped a few and sold them for parts. Kept some for myself. And adopted two of them into my "official" collection - meaning these two would be made as new as possible and as clean as possible, and always repaired instead of scrapped.

 

19 hours ago, DeathAdderSF said:

True! I remember passing on a complete Apple IIc with monochrome monitor for just $5 at the swap meet. Would've had no use for the monitor, but could have kept the IIc for spare parts, at least.

Yup. Local thrift shops were selling //e and //c for e-waste prices. Best deal ever (aside from free) was a //c for $3.63.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Keatah

[DeathAdderSF]

36 minutes ago, Keatah said:

Best deal ever (aside from free) was a //c for $3.63.

 

A few years after the Aquarius debacle, I snagged a "French Apple" (Canadian IIc with some French letters & symbols in ROM) for $9.95 + what was super cheap shipping at the time (pretty sure the seller used the old "4th class sneakaroonie" that we all exploited back then). Thing was almost like new, and included the original, bundled software. So there's that.

 

Oh! And a free [!] Apple IIgs, once. Someone locally advertised it in a local computer mag, but all the callers before me had mistakenly thought it was a Macintosh of some sort, and didn't want it. When I explained, very clearly, that I knew what it was and intended to use it, he forked it over with a relieved thank you.

[JamesD]

On 11/10/2022 at 3:40 PM, carlsson said:

I did consider the Turbo-R but thought it had a 16-bit CPU and only used the Z80 as a co-pro. Then I read up on the R800 where it says to feature a superset of the Z80, and I'm not sure if the machines really have dual CPUs, and in that case if the vast majority of MSX software runs on the newer CPU in compatibility mode, or on the older CPU in native mode.

The R800 supposedly originated as the Z280, but I believe it cut a few things out. 
Basically, it's a pipelined Z80 that does away with the 4 bit ALU.  I don't remember if the ALU is 16 bit or not, but it would make sense. 

[AMSDOS]

Does a Texas Instruments TI-84 Plus Graphics Calculator count?

[+OLD CS1]

4 hours ago, AMSDOS said:

Does a Texas Instruments TI-84 Plus Graphics Calculator count?

I would not consider it in this discussion, but rather as a calculator with computer capabilities; not a traditional computer as listed in the OP.  I also would not consider something like the TI-74 or TI-95, but the CC-40 would be.

 

I am not familiar with the TI-83 in this regard.  Aside from having built-in BASIC which is similar to and compatible with the TI Home Computers BASIC, the TI ProCalcs have software library cartridges which would make them a computer in their own rights.  But, again, not for the purposes of this discussion unless the OP feels they would fit in.

[AMSDOS]

On old-computers.com they go as far as 1995, with some 8-bit computers being released in 1994 between the Amstrad PCW16 and MicroTim+

[CatPix]

I was trying to find the Soviet/Russian Spectrum clones I heard of, and... one is the Pentagon, which was an amateur-designed PCB, so can it count as production? It's unclear if it was produced by a factory or by people producing perhaps a dozen for reselling them.

Amazingly, another that may not be simple to know where and when it started and stopped is the ATM.

Now, it appears that ATM is (was?) a legit manufacturer, and they made the ATM from 1991 to 1994 (with an update in 1992. Perhaps as they could source Western components?)

However it seems that someone restarted making ATM-Turbo in 2004.

https://nedopc-com.translate.goog/news.php?_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=fr&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp&_x_tr_sch=http

It is unclear but it feels more like a sort of club, not a full-fledged company.

 

https://www-invertor-ru.translate.goog/news_comp_30.html?_x_tr_sch=http&_x_tr_sl=ru&_x_tr_tl=fr&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

"At the end of 1994, due to the massive appearance of Dendy game set-top boxes in Russia, as well as in connection with the appearance of IBM-compatible computers on the 386 and 486 processor, the demand for any Sinclair-compatible computers fell sharply, commercial support had to be stopped, and all firmware, developments and software, it was decided to give to free use.

However, a group of enthusiasts (creative group NedoPC group) not only preserved the heritage of ATM-turbo, but also improved the project. Today, the production of the classic PC ATM-turbo versions of v7.xx boards continues in small batches, as well as an experimental batch of the PC ATM-turbo 3 with a new form factor of the ATX case and with an architecture expansion up to 4Mb (backward compatible with 2+) and a palette up to 16x4096, as well as a model based on modern elemental logic and a flashable configuration - ZX-Evolution with support for 4MB, turbocharging up to 14MHz, modern peripherals, SD cards, etc.). Today, this model is the most popular, at least in Russia, and has been produced in small batches continuously since 2010."

I guess this isn't really commercial... But cool. Also I guess those could be among the earliest "rebuilt/reprodution" of older computers 😛

Edited December 4, 2022 by CatPix

[oracle_jedi]

On 12/2/2022 at 10:36 PM, OLD CS1 said:

 

I am not familiar with the TI-83 in this regard.  Aside from having built-in BASIC which is similar to and compatible with the TI Home Computers BASIC, the TI ProCalcs have software library cartridges which would make them a computer in their own rights.  But, again, not for the purposes of this discussion unless the OP feels they would fit in.

It's an interesting qualification - what constitutes a computer versus a games console versus a calculator.

 

In the 80s it seemed pretty straightforward to me.  Calculators had fixed functions and limited input and output devices with no ability to use permanent storage beyond ROM.  Games consoles had interchangable software and some had more elaborate input devices, but still no ability to write to permanent storage.  Computers by contrast had user definable software, complex IO devices and could save content to storage.  Machines such as the Commodore MAX or Sord M5, that were in essence little more than games consoles with keyboards still counted as computers as they were programmable (albeit very limited) and could save to tape.  

 

At least that's how I saw it.  Its subjective and you are free to disagree.

 

The TI Calculators referenced by @Krebizfan and @AMSDOS certainly defy my simple definitions.  Although marketed as calculators they really are portable computers, and if I am reading this right, TI was continuing to release new models into the early 2000s, making them I suspect the last commercial use of inherent 8bit technology - as opposed to emulated - in a commercial product.   That said they were marketed as calculators, and not as computers which is an interesting distinction in my opinion.

 

The 1995 Amstrad PCW16 is another interesting case.  In fact I admit I always assumed it was a 16-bit product because - ya know - it has "16" in the name and it was brought to market far too late for that to indicate 16K RAM.  But I was surprised to learn it was also Z80 based like all other PCW machines.  I would peg it as the last commercial 8bit to feature significant new development, as opposed to the TLC that @Krebizfan mentioned, which was mostly a repackaging of the existing and aged Apple IIe, but even though the PCW16 was really a computer it was marketed as a Word Processor, albeit without a printer.

 

The 1996 TLC then seems to be last product brough to market, marketed as a computer, to be based on 8bit tech.   Notably it was positioned as a child's learning tool, and if my research is right, its ability to read/write to permanent storage is somewhat crippled.

 

So I guess maybe it was the MSX Turbo R that @SlidellMan mentioned, introduced in 1991, that was marketed a computer, was not simply a repackaging of an existing design.

 

Always interested in the opinions of others, and what the evolving discussion of Soviet-era computing product reveals.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JamesD]

Apparently, the Laser PC5 has some of it's built in software with a Copyright of 1995.  It's Z80.  It had built in applications, and BASIC.
The Amstrad PCW still beats that since it was produced till 98.  It did include BASIC and Logo, so it's not like it was just marketed as a word processor.

The TurboR was introduced in 1990/1.  Pretty sure they weren't produced until 98.  I doubt it was even around by the time the Laser PC5 came out.
 

[Krebizfan]

The Laser PC6 was introduced in 1998. It was a PC5 with an IRDA port. It continued selling to the educational market for about 15 years. 

[CatPix]

On 1/27/2023 at 7:42 PM, JamesD said:

The TurboR was introduced in 1990/1.  Pretty sure they weren't produced until 98.  I doubt it was even around by the time the Laser PC5 came out.
 

You're right, by all accounts, in 1993, Panasonic shelved the whole MSX line (Turbo-R and the never to be MSX3) in favor of manufacturing the 3DO.

 

 

Noooooooooooot sure it was a wise move

[JamesD]

23 hours ago, CatPix said:

You're right, by all accounts, in 1993, Panasonic shelved the whole MSX line (Turbo-R and the never to be MSX3) in favor of manufacturing the 3DO.

 

 

Noooooooooooot sure it was a wise move

The 3DO was awesome!  Too awesome in fact as it was introduced at $700 with very few games on introduction.
That's about $1500 adjusted for inflation

Edited February 1, 2023 by JamesD

[tschak909]

$50 more than the Neo-Geo AES's introductory retail price, and that's an accomplishment.

[CatPix]

It's a topic for another thread but apparently the 700$ price was only in a few stores, in most places it was available for 650$ (still a steep price) and the price fell down to 600$ and less in the following months.

Edited February 2, 2023 by CatPix