HAPPY 40th ANNIVERSARY/BIRTHDAY BIG SEXY!!! The Atari 5200 SuperSystem turns 40 years young this past month!!!

[+MrFish]

Poll for 5200 titles started here: Best Atari 5200 Launch-Year Title

 

Note:

I chose launch-year titles rather than just launch titles, because apparently only Galaxian, Missile Command, Space Invaders, Star Raiders, & Super Breakout were available at launch; so having a few more titles makes the poll a little more interesting.

 

Also, Asteroids and RealSports Basketball were left off the list because they were never officially released.

 

[phuzaxeman]

20 hours ago, MrFish said:

For what, helping them get ready to fall sleep?

 

I wasn't disparaging the 5200 as a system; didn't say anything about it. I was talking about games, and particularly Super Breakout as a pack-in choice.

 

I don't disagree with you that super breakout was not the right choice for a pack in game to sell the system. 

 

However, super breakout is still an awesome game. It's the best breakout version in that era imo.

[+MrFish]

31 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

I don't disagree with you that super breakout was not the right choice for a pack in game to sell the system. 

 

However, super breakout is still an awesome game. It's the best breakout version in that era imo.

Yes, I got your point in the conversation.

 

TBH, I'm not fond of breakout-type games to start with. From the 2600 days, I found Breakout interesting, and fun for short sessions; but not much there to hold interest. Super Breakout, of course, improves on the theme in terms of variety; but one thing I don't like about it is that the paddle shrinks at the same time the ball is speeding up. OK, the difficulty is challenging, but it seems to ramp up a bit too quick; making it a little frustrating to play, for me. Maybe if the paddle only decreased to 2/3 the size it would be better, rather than 1/2 the paddle size. I haven't played it on the 5200 (just played on 8-bit computer with paddle controllers), so I can't comment directly on that; but I've listened to a couple reviews for the game; and the main things they seem to be pointing out is that they would prefer to use paddles for controlling it; although they do like the game, and concede that playing it decently on the 5200 is possible using the sticks, with practice.

 

To be clear, I don't think Super Breakout is a bad game, just a bad pack-in choice in light of other games of the time that Atari could/should have used.

 

Generally speaking, I prefer Arkanoid and other similar types of Breakout games, of which there are many on the Atari 8-bit computers; but I even get tired of playing them pretty quickly. Maybe I prefer breaking bricks Super Mario style.

 

[ymike673]

I think the pack in should have been Missle Command which was the extra cartridge I bought when I bought my 5200 back in 82. The game could be played easily with the 5200 controller. I could understand why not Pac Man because as a separate cartridge everyone was going to buy it. Totally agree that Superbreakout is fun but pretty boring as the pack in game.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[zzip]

17 hours ago, MrFish said:

 

It doesn't matter. At the time, Combat was a hot enough title on its own, and held the system up with the buyer's initial purchase. Buy a 2600 and you were set with the pack-in game for a good while.

It does matter.   Combat was not a cultural phenomenon like PacMan or Donkey Kong,  there were no Combat! breakfast cereals, saturday morning cartoons or lunch boxes or "Combat Fever" pop songs on the radio.   

 

If you have the rights to such a property, why would you give it away free?  Especially since you are probably paying Namco a hefty sum for every free cart.   Coleco did the unthinkable by bundling Donkey Kong,  but they had to do something bold like that,  they were competing against Atari who had a much bigger presence in the market and a better arcade portfolio to work with (over all).  If Coleco packed-in Carnival would anyone be saying Super Breakout was a bad choice?  I doubt it.

 

Combat may have sold some 2600's but sales of the 2600  were nothing compared to what happened when Space Invaders came out,   And PacMan/Donkey Kong were more popular than that.   So even if Combat was the best of the launch titles,  it's not in the same league as these other games.   And I'm taking you at  your word that people bought 2600's for Combat and it held them over for months..   I've never met anyone who was all that excited about Combat.

Edited February 9, 2023 by zzip

[+Stephen]

I love Combat, it's still fun to play now.  I think it's pretty cool though, that it was basically just a hardware test from when the 2600 was being developed and prototyped.

[phuzaxeman]

On 2/9/2023 at 12:26 AM, MrFish said:

Yes, I got your point in the conversation.

 

TBH, I'm not fond of breakout-type games to start with. From the 2600 days, I found Breakout interesting, and fun for short sessions; but not much there to hold interest. Super Breakout, of course, improves on the theme in terms of variety; but one thing I don't like about it is that the paddle shrinks at the same time the ball is speeding up. OK, the difficulty is challenging, but it seems to ramp up a bit too quick; making it a little frustrating to play, for me. Maybe if the paddle only decreased to 2/3 the size it would be better, rather than 1/2 the paddle size. I haven't played it on the 5200 (just played on 8-bit computer with paddle controllers), so I can't comment directly on that; but I've listened to a couple reviews for the game; and the main things they seem to be pointing out is that they would prefer to use paddles for controlling it; although they do like the game, and concede that playing it decently on the 5200 is possible using the sticks, with practice.

 

To be clear, I don't think Super Breakout is a bad game, just a bad pack-in choice in light of other games of the time that Atari could/should have used.

 

Generally speaking, I prefer Arkanoid and other similar types of Breakout games, of which there are many on the Atari 8-bit computers; but I even get tired of playing them pretty quickly. Maybe I prefer breaking bricks Super Mario style.

 

In 82, using analog sticks for breakout was pretty amazing in its time. 

 

What made 5200 Super Breakout really fun was how the bricks decimate after being hit and the sound effects with the quick intro melody were really cool. The colors were deep and the after the game comment ratings that tell you "ace" or "novice" was gratifying.

 

I would love to play arkanoid using the 5200 sticks.

 

To each their own. I know people that grew up on the system share my sentiments.  It's a shame Atari didn't support the 5200 properly.

 

Imagine a 5200 that already was already 2600 compatible, sticks were more reliable, and the pack in game started with Pac Man?  

 

Great times.

 

[BIGHMW]

20 minutes ago, phuzaxeman said:

In 82, using analog sticks for breakout was pretty amazing in its time. 

 

What made 5200 Super Breakout really fun was how the bricks decimate after being hit and the sound effects with the quick intro melody were really cool. The colors were deep and the after the game comment ratings that tell you "ace" or "novice" was gratifying.

 

I would love to play arkanoid using the 5200 sticks.

 

To each their own. I know people that grew up on the system share my sentiments.  It's a shame Atari didn't support the 5200 properly.

 

Imagine a 5200 that already was already 2600 compatible, sticks were more reliable, and the pack in game started with Pac Man?  

 

Great times.

 

5200 Super Breakout was indeed better than the A8/XEGS version, now as far as getting a 5200 port of Arkanoid, in another thread on this very forum I losted a ROM of a qualified-enough port for the A8/XEGS in which I thought that maybe SOMEONE would kindly port over to the 5200, but didn't even bother to,  and that one was one called Crack-Up! I will post the ROM once again and see if anyone (perhaps @Wrathchild or @playsoft or @classics ) wants to take a crack at perhaps doing a conversion for those who aren't fortunate to have both a 5200 and an XEGS like I now (once again) do. 

Crack-Up !.xex

Edited February 14, 2023 by BIGHMW
to add the ROM in question

[phuzaxeman]

1 hour ago, BIGHMW said:

5200 Super Breakout was indeed better than the A8/XEGS version, now as far as getting a 5200 port of Arkanoid, in another thread on this very forum I losted a ROM of a qualified-enough port for the A8/XEGS in which I thought that maybe SOMEONE would kindly port over to the 5200, but didn't even bother to,  and that one was one called Crack-Up! I will post the ROM once again and see if anyone (perhaps @Wrathchild or @playsoft or @classics ) wants to take a crack at perhaps doing a conversion for those who aren't fortunate to have both a 5200 and an XEGS like I now (once again) do. 

Crack-Up !.xex 14.9 kB · 0 downloads

I'm not interested in porting the 8bit version to the 5200. 

 

Remember you said you would stop asking developers to make 5200 ports?  Did you forget?

 

I'm talking about playing the arcade version. I suppose I could buy an adapter for my modern VCS/PC and play it on mame. 

[BIGHMW]

11 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Remember you said you would stop asking developers to make 5200 ports?  Did you forget?

Part of that quote is why I reacquired my XEGS and also the 7800 because I knew that nobody wants to cooperate with providing the 5200 community with some great titles that otherwise would still not be available to them, don't forget only 69 titles were ever released for Big Sexy, if it weren't for those 3 guys as well as the many geniuses here on AA with their homebrews and my constant lobbying we would still only have 69 titles as opposed to almost 500 of them.

[+Stephen]

11 minutes ago, BIGHMW said:

my constant lobbying

So I guess this means it won't be stopping anytime soon?  Got it.

[phuzaxeman]

32 minutes ago, BIGHMW said:

Part of that quote is why I reacquired my XEGS and also the 7800 because I knew that nobody wants to cooperate with providing the 5200 community with some great titles that otherwise would still not be available to them, don't forget only 69 titles were ever released for Big Sexy, if it weren't for those 3 guys as well as the many geniuses here on AA with their homebrews and my constant lobbying we would still only have 69 titles as opposed to almost 500 of them.

So by not giving the 5200 community more conversions from the 8bit, programmers are not "cooperating" with your idea that they should be offering the 5200 more titles? Lol. Ok.

 

I have an 8bit. I don't need to request any conversions from the 8bit titles. And I'll continue to purchase the 5200 homebrews and support the programmers that create titles for the 5200. 

 

Your 'constant lobbying' and asking programmers to do your free work is doing more disrespect than helping the community.

 

 

Edited February 14, 2023 by phuzaxeman

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 hour ago, Stephen said:

So I guess this means it won't be stopping anytime soon?  Got it.

Oh, good.  I was afraid that A8 and 5200 developers might decide for themselves in which direction(s) they would like for their game(s) to be ported, but thankfully Ray is here to fight the good fight on our behalf.  To stand up for the little man.  To ensure a flow of games to both platforms that is so torrential it could serve to generate its own hydroelectricity. And, most importantly, to annoy the piss out of everyone who gets to involuntarily watch history repeat itself. 

[+MrFish]

On 2/9/2023 at 11:00 AM, zzip said:

It does matter.   Combat was not a cultural phenomenon like PacMan or Donkey Kong,  there were no Combat! breakfast cereals, saturday morning cartoons or lunch boxes or "Combat Fever" pop songs on the radio.   

At first you said "conventional wisdom was you don't give away your best game as a pack-in". So, now you're saying it has to be a "cultural phenomenon" in order to qualify for following the supposed conventional wisdom?

 

On 2/9/2023 at 11:00 AM, zzip said:

If you have the rights to such a property, why would you give it away free?

Who's giving anything away, when you're paying $250 (or whatever the cost was for a 5200 at the time)? The point of including a good game is to hold up the system purchase and help increase sales as a result of doing so; and everything figures into the cost in some form or another. You'll be giving a lot more away later on, when your systems have to be discounted in order to sell them at all.

 

On 2/9/2023 at 11:00 AM, zzip said:

Combat may have sold some 2600's but sales of the 2600  were nothing compared to what happened when Space Invaders came out,   And PacMan/Donkey Kong were more popular than that.   So even if Combat was the best of the launch titles,  it's not in the same league as these other games.

I never said Combat was in the same league as games like these; I said it didn't matter if it was or not, because Combat was a strong enough title at the time to hold up the system as an initial purchase. The other thing is, they didn't have such games in their initial pool at release; and what such games even existed in the arcades in 1977?? Pong was a huge game in its prime, but nearly on its death bed when the 2600 was being released.

 

[Ecernosoft]

On 1/4/2023 at 7:42 PM, BIGHMW said:

....and, at one point the original title that WAS going to be the pack-in game before they decided on Super Breakout was the (formerly) unplayable and unfinished Asteroids.

Hmm...... I wonder what game was pack in for Atari 7800 PAL....... Hmmmmm...  

 

Jokes aside, I would've 100% played Asteroids over Super Breakout!!!!!!!!  Why atari.... why....

[+MrFish]

21 hours ago, phuzaxeman said:

Imagine a 5200 that already was already 2600 compatible, sticks were more reliable, and the pack in game started with Pac Man?  

Yeah, these were the main issues.

 

[BIGHMW]

10 minutes ago, Ecernosoft said:

Hmm...... I wonder what game was pack in for Atari 7800 PAL....... Hmmmmm...  

 

Jokes aside, I would've 100% played Asteroids over Super Breakout!!!!!!!!  Why atari.... why....

If Atari would've followed through and taken more time on calibrating the controls on Asteroids to work-ability and finished it perhaps probably it would've sold more consoles than Super Breakout (CX5203) did until Pac-Man was eventually rolled out, either it or Missile Command (CX5202), in which, did take advantage of the 5200's CX52 analog controls on the joystick part would've sold more units than Super Breakout, that, and, knowing (and advertising from the get-go, like they did starting during her launch in the ads that aired during the 1982 World Series) that the (soon-to-be-legendary) CX53 Trak-Ball was coming soon, having the fully-TB-compatible Missile Command available (it was) as well as having either it or a fully-finished Asteroids as the pack-in game (CX5201) would've been the better move.

 

Missile Command was still relevant in the fall of 1982, so it would've sold more units than Super Breakout, and then fans would be more geared up to get the Trak-Ball for Big Sexy after it was rolled out, Atari sank the good ship 5200 almost immediately after cracking the champagne bottle over her by packing in Super Breakout, in which, while it was great for 1979, it certainly aged quite a bit into irrelevancy by 1982.

[zzip]

4 minutes ago, MrFish said:

At first you said "conventional wisdom was you don't give away your best game as a pack-in". So, now you're saying it has to be a "cultural phenomenon" in order to qualify for following the supposed conventional wisdom?

When I wrote that I was thinking "most valuable IP",  "hottest property",  etc.   The words "best game" just happens to be how I phrased it.   If I had known that phrase would be interpreted in a different way than I meant it.  I would have gone with a different phrase.   

 

14 minutes ago, MrFish said:

Who's giving anything away, when you're paying $250 (or whatever the cost was for a 5200 at the time)? The point of including a good game is hold up the system purchase and help increase sales as a result of doing so; and everything figures into the cost in some form or another. You'll be giving a lot more away later on, when your systems have to be discounted in order to sell them at all.

If you have a game lots of people would be willing to pay extra for, then it doesn't make sense to give it away.   Not if you want to maximize profits.   (And Atari didn't license Pac-man to be charitable, they wanted those juicy cart sales).   I  think any executive who suggested giving PacMan away would have been laughed out of the room, at least before they saw what Coleco did with Donkey Kong.

 

Coleco being an underdog to the cartridge console market needed to make a splash, and packing DK was the perfect way to do it.

 

So Atari's decision to go with Super Breakout makes sense,  they were market leader with a top-notch arcade portfolio and shouldn't need to resort to tricks to sell their unit

Coleco was the challenger to the throne with a lesser arcade portfolio (overall) so they needed to do some tricks to punch above their weight, and boy did they ever! "free Donkey Kong" *BAM*  "2600 module" *BAM*  $70 less than the 5200! *OOF*

 

33 minutes ago, MrFish said:

I never said Combat was in the same league as games like these; I said it didn't matter if it was or not, because Combat was a strong enough title at the time to hold up the system as an initial purchase. The other thing is, they didn't have such games in their initial pool at release; and what such games even existed in the arcades in 1977?? Pong was a huge game in its prime, but nearly on its death bed when the 2600 was being released.

I don't think there was a hot videogame like that at the time either.   Space Invaders came in 78.   In fact I've heard that period of the 70s called a lesser crash because people lost interest in the pong consoles and the next big thing hadn't hit yet.

[+MrFish]

On 2/14/2023 at 5:28 PM, zzip said:

Atari didn't license Pac-man to be charitable, they wanted those juicy cart sales

 

So Atari's decision to go with Super Breakout makes sense...

It might have made sense to Warner; but time proved they weren't the kind of management to run a company like Atari. Not having Super Breakout as the pack-in doesn't mean Pac-Man had to be the one in its place. I think Pac-Man is mentioned most often as a better pack-in because it was later to become the pack-in for the system. Atari had other titles that would have made much more sense than something as antiquated as Super Breakout. Centipede, Missile Command, or Star Raiders would have been excellent pack-ins, and were all Atari's own games.

 

I doubt very seriously that Bushnell and his crew would have made the same mistake. They knew what they were doing.

 

[zzip]

15 hours ago, MrFish said:

It might have made sense to Warner; but time proved they weren't the kind of management to run a company like Atari. Not having Super Breakout as the pack-in doesn't mean Pac-Man had to be the one in its place. I think Pac-Man is mentioned most often as a better pack-in because it was later to become the pack-in for the system. Atari had other titles that would have made much more sense than something as antiquated as Super Breakout. Centipede, Missile Command, or Star Raiders would have been excellent pack-ins, and were all Atari's own games.

 

I doubt very seriously that Bushnell and his crew would have made the same mistake. They knew what they were doing.

 

Yeah Warner management definitely made a lot of "what were they thinking?" decisions.

 

A bunch of those other games could work as pack-in

[Keatah]

Why include a #1 hit for free when you can sell it separately for more $$$?

[+MrFish]

2 hours ago, Keatah said:

Why include a #1 hit for free when you can sell it separately for more $$$?

Because your marvelously-innovative joysticks are going to start dying like flies!

 

[BIGHMW]

On 2/16/2023 at 12:07 PM, Keatah said:

Why include a #1 hit for free when you can sell it separately for more $$$?

Well if we were ever talking about music (my previous profession as both The Heavy Metal Warrior with my hardcore/thrash band/S.O.D. soundalike/ripoff S.M.F. and as rapper AK47) THAT, is how you REALLY, make $$$. I included my hits "Compton Gang Bang", "Hadlock Freestyle" and "AK47 In Da House" with my only AK47 CD, 2004's "Hadlock's Most Wanted", because I knew they would sell the album. Same thing with including "Rest In Pieces" and "Bates Motel" in my S.M.F. album, "...and Proud Of It" from 1997.

 

BOTTOM LINE. Hits draw sales.

 

But, unfortunately, especially for us underground, independent artists trying to make it in this business, so does radio play, in which was my downfall in the music industry, because stations like 102.7 KIIS-FM (in Los Angeles) didn't know shit about real music as opposed to all of that fake homogenized auto-tuned pop shit like Justin Bieber, Taylor Swift, and BTS that they played/hammered down idiot kids' throats almost like those predatory propagandist media outlets at Fox News, Newsmax and OAN do.

 

Coleco though, did the right thing from the very get-go, by offering Donkey Kong as the pack-in game in order to drive up sales of ColecoVision units, Atari COULD'VE done the very same thing with Pac-Man for the 5200, despite the controller issues, but, chose not to.

 

Look at the initial sales numbers, they speak for themselves. Atari never truly recovered after that, plus the controller issues didn't help their cause either, even though there would be a more-permanent fix for those thanks to Best Electronics, and that Pac-Man was included in the deal later on, it was too little too late.

[+x=usr(1536)]

5 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

I included my hits "Compton Gang Bang", "Hadlock Freestyle" and "AK47 In Da House" with my only AK47 CD, 2004's "Hadlock's Most Wanted", because I knew they would sell the album.

And that's why the album went triple platinum.

[BIGHMW]

14 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

And that's why the album went triple platinum.

I WISH it could've.... given the right exposure it could've at least gotten me signed to a major label distribution deal so the whole world could hear (and see as I put out a feature VHS video of myself with S.M.F. on a public access cable show called "29 Live" in 1998 and a DVD of AK47 "LIVE At Rhody Fest 2005") my work I did in my career.