Question re: UAV installation in heavy sixer

[Matt300ZXT]

I swapped out all chips on my old light 6er too, same issues too, after that is when I junked it....good thing I didn't buy chips, just borrowed from a working console.  

 

Hopefully you can find the dead resistor or capacitor.  I was testing EVERY resistor I could for being in spec and it was just taking up too much of my time.  I hope you're able to find the fault.  At least I got a good condition case and some spare components to save for a rainy day out of mine lol

[+-^CrossBow^-]

1 hour ago, scorpio_ny said:

Maybe you or someone else can answer: Do I need to install the audio audio board offered by the brewing factory?

I actually just installed an IAB into a 400 over the weekend. My take is that it is more work than just what I do. Because you have to still attach a wire tapping the audio into the IAB, and the IAB still needs +5 and GND, plus your wire going back out to the RCA jacks or whatever you are using for audio output connection.

 

So yeah...just attach the + lead a 10µf cap of the unused via by C210 and run a wire from the - lead of the cap back to your audio output jacks. Simpler and I honestly thought the sound from the IAB was too over driven on the 400 I installed it into. In fact, I had previously done the audio on that 400 in the same manner I do from a 5200 using a 2k resistor and capacitor and felt it sounded better over the IAB. So I would only suggest using the IAB in something where you need to connect two separate audio inputs and have them mixed to a single output. The 7800 doesn't really count in this case because I believe using the IAB in that situation will result in an imbalance of the audio between the Pokey and TIA as it wasn't designed for the 7800 really.

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 12/6/2022 at 3:23 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

My take is that it is more work than just what I do. Because you have to still attach a wire tapping the audio into the IAB, and the IAB still needs +5 and GND, plus your wire going back out to the RCA jacks or whatever you are using for audio output connection.

I tend to agree.  The first IAB that I installed was in the 5200, largely because the PCB real estate was there to find a home for it fairly easily.  No plans to remove or replace it since it works fine, but I wouldn't really call it essential in that particular machine.

 

There is some fiddling around going on on my end that may make it more attractive to 5200 owners who have both the CX-55 2600 cartridge adapter and a UAV installed in their 5200, but that's a really low-priority item right now.  Given how widely-available regular 2600s (and 7800s) still are, it's not as though there are no options for 5200 owners to be able to play 2600 titles - and while it would be a neat (but small) technical accomplishment, it's very likely that only a few people would be interested.

 

For a 2600 Jr. or 7800, I'd skip it entirely just on the grounds of available space, but @-^CrossBow^-'s right: it's not designed to balance TIA and MARIA audio.  That could likely be done ahead of sending the audio from both into the IAB by way of resistors, but at that point there's really no good reason to not just send the audio out per the usual methods.

 

In a 400 or 800, there's a more compelling case for using it: since the IAB can mix GTIA and POKEY audio, you can disconnect the internal speaker but still have keypress audio come out of whatever external speakers you've got the machine connected to - basically the same as an XL or XE.  That assumes that there's a UAV (or other video modification) in place, though, and it's a pretty niche scenario regardless.  This would also cost you SIO audio, so if that's a consideration this wouldn't be a good fit.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

3 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

In a 400 or 800, there's a more compelling case for using it: since the IAB can mix GTIA and POKEY audio, you can disconnect the internal speaker but still have keypress audio come out of whatever external speakers / headphones you've got the machine connected to.  That assumes that there's a UAV (or other video modification) in place, though, and it's a pretty niche scenario regardless.  This would also cost you SIO audio, so if that's a consideration this wouldn't be a good fit.

I thought the IAB was to combine the Pokey and SIO into it? That is what I did per the TBA instructions that listed the SIO audio as Tape Audio. So far as I know the IAB doesn't sacrifice any audio in the 400.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

45 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I thought the IAB was to combine the Pokey and SIO into it? That is what I did per the TBA instructions that listed the SIO audio as Tape Audio. So far as I know the IAB doesn't sacrifice any audio in the 400.

Yep, but as far as I can tell the SIO audio input on the IAB can take basically anything that's at a reasonable level.  Instead of running SIO audio to it, connect it to pin 15 (IIRC) on the GTIA.

 

That should mix the keyboard click audio in with the POKEY audio, same as on an XL or XE.  The keyboard speaker could then be unplugged, but without finding a way to mix both the keyboard click and SIO audio, SIO audio is effectively non-working at that point.

 

The way I phrased it initially was not totally clear.  Hopefully this is better.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Oh...I see. I thought the keyboard clicks were using Pokey or SIO and didn't know that was using a 3rd audio source? Learn something new every day.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

9 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Oh...I see. I thought the keyboard clicks were using Pokey or SIO and didn't know that was using a 3rd audio source? Learn something new every day.

The IAB is interesting in that it's basically just a small 5VDC-driven mono audio amp.  It's not machine- or manufacturer-specific, so as long as it can get what it wants in terms of power and audio levels, it'll be happy.

[+scorpio_ny]

@x=usr(1536) and @-^CrossBow^-,

 

Thank you for the info! I will probably pick one up IAB to try it out. Hopefully I wont into any issues with the install of the upgrades.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

The machine is complete, working, and in time for Christmas   For a while there it was really looking as though it wouldn't be, but, thankfully, the cascade of problems that cropped up were finally able to be resolved.  For the curious, here's everything that was done to the console in terms of upgrade and repair work:

• Installed a UAV
• Installed an IAB
• Modified and installed an 8BitClassics A8 5-pin DIN to S-Video, composite video, and double mono audio cable
• Lifted one side of R213
• Replaced the dead 6507 with one from Best Electronics
• Replaced sockets for both the 6507 and TIA (didn't touch RIOT, so left it alone)
• Replaced the ribbon cable connecting the two PCBs with one from Best Electronics
• Recapped the machine using the Console5 cap kit for the 2600 (this also took care of the voltage regulator and power jack)
• Added the Console5 4050 Static Protection kit
• Replaced both 2N3906 transistors on the mainboard due to one being toast (decided to just do both at the same time)
• Replaced the 2W, 680Ω resistor on the switch board (this wasn't strictly necessary, but it would bother me if I didn't)

Related to that, it's being bundled with a pair of rebuilt CX-40s and a Harmony Encore.  The whole thing has taken about 6 months of on-again, off-again work to complete, but I'm happy with the end result.  I suspect that my father-in-law will be quite happy with it, too - he's been wanting a Heavy Sixer for some time, but the right one never crossed his path at the right time.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

9 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

The machine is complete, working, and in time for Christmas   For a while there it was really looking as though it wouldn't be, but, thankfully, the cascade of problems that cropped up were finally able to be resolved.  For the curious, here's everything that was done to the console in terms of repair work:

• Installed a UAV
• Installed an IAB
• Modified and installed an 8BitClassics A8 5-pin DIN to S-Video, composite video, and double mono audio cable
• Lifted one side of R213
• Replaced the dead 6507 with one from Best Electronics
• Replaced sockets for both the 6507 and TIA (didn't touch RIOT, so left it alone)
• Replaced the ribbon cable connecting the two PCBs with one from Best Electronics
• Recapped the machine using the Console5 cap kit for the 2600 (this also took care of the voltage regulator and power jack)
• Added the Console5 4050 Static Protection kit
• Replaced both 2N3906 transistors on the mainboard due to one being toast (decided to just do both at the same time)
• Replaced the 2W, 680Ω resistor on the switch board (this wasn't strictly necessary, but it would bother me if I didn't)

Related to that, it's being bundled with a pair of rebuilt CX-40s and a Harmony Encore.  The whole thing has taken about 6 months of on-again, off-again work to complete, but I'm happy with the end result.  I suspect that my father-in-law will be quite happy with it, too - he's been wanting a Heavy Sixer for some time, but the right one never crossed his path at the right time.

That is quite a bit of work to be sure. As I told you, on the one I did sometime back that had that large 2w resistor as bad, I just removed it an left it out. No issues that have arrived from it. Again, that resistor is completely missing the light sixers and future revisions thereafter. I believe it was put into place to reduce the input voltage a tad that was getting sent to the VR. Since newer and more robust VRs with higher voltage tolerances are being used these days, it isn't as critical as it likely would have been 40+ years ago. Although I've always thought the original heat sink assembly on those might not be enough to dissipate all the heat properly and that might also be why that resistor was added. Later revisions starting sinking the heat to the PCB itself on larger ground planes on both layers of the PCB to provide more total surface area.

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

4 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

That is quite a bit of work to be sure.

Yup.  My theory based on condition when I got it is that the machine had been sitting for quite some time, had pre-existing issues (which is likely why it had been sitting), and powering it up again / doing the UAV & IAB installations brought them out of the woodwork.  It just happened to be unfortunate timing with those installations that the failures became apparent because that made it harder to figure out the root causes.

4 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

As I told you, on the one I did sometime back that had that large 2w resistor as bad, I just removed it an left it out. No issues that have arrived from it. Again, that resistor is completely missing the light sixers and future revisions thereafter. I believe it was put into place to reduce the input voltage a tad that was getting sent to the VR. Since newer and more robust VRs with higher voltage tolerances are being used these days, it isn't as critical as it likely would have been 40+ years ago.

Totally agree, and replacing it was done mainly because given the sheer number of things I was R&Ring it would bug me if I didn't.  FWIW, I was thinking of using a Traco 2-2450 in lieu of the VR, but decided that there really wasn't much point since the cap kit came with a new VR.  Had I gone with the Traco, not replacing the 2W resistor probably wouldn't have nagged at me.

4 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Although I've always thought the original heat sink assembly on those might not be enough to dissipate all the heat properly and that might also be why that resistor was added. Later revisions starting sinking the heat to the PCB itself on larger ground planes on both layers of the PCB to provide more total surface area.

The original heat sink looks a little undersized to me also, so you could well be right that that was why the resistor was in there.

 

Out of curiosity, do you have any recommendations for a 2600 diagnostic cartridge?  Something with functionality similar to the 7800 diagnostic cartridge for colour adjustment if at all possible is what I'm mainly looking for.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

9 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Yup.  My theory based on condition when I got it is that the machine had been sitting for quite some time, had pre-existing issues (which is likely why it had been sitting), and powering it up again / doing the UAV & IAB installations brought them out of the woodwork.  It just happened to be unfortunate timing with those installations that the failures became apparent because that made it harder to figure out the root causes.

Totally agree, and replacing it was done mainly because given the sheer number of things I was R&Ring it would bug me if I didn't.  FWIW, I was thinking of using a Traco 2-2450 in lieu of the VR, but decided that there really wasn't much point since the cap kit came with a new VR.  Had I gone with the Traco, not replacing the 2W resistor probably wouldn't have nagged at me.

The original heat sink looks a little undersized to me as well, so you could well be right that that was why the resistor was in there.

 

Out of curiosity, do you have any recommendations for a 2600 diagnostic cartridge?  Something with functionality similar to the 7800 diagnostic cartridge for colour adjustment if at all possible is what I'm mainly looking for.

Only the test cart that can be bought from the AA store or download the image for it and use on a flash cart which, is what I do. That cart doesn't give you any real specific chip by chip checks or anything, but it does have a graphical display to check both controller ports, all the switches minus power of course and even paddle lines on the bottom so you can verify paddles will work in both ports. It does have color bars that show some primary colors on them.

 

That all said...

 

Similar to the 7800, the UAV output does alter some of these colors. The RED will lean more towards brown on the UAV in that test cart although the red and color bars on the Color bar Geneartor cart look correct through a UAV. So again, suspect it is some hues look different as they do on the 7800 side. One thing you will notice and it might bother you although it doesn't seem to bother most or come up. The trees in the original Pitfall are dark brown. But on the UAV they will look nearly black while all the other colors seem fine. So there are some hues that seem to change through the UAVs encoder. It doesn't surprise me that much given the UAV was designed first for the 8-bits and looks best on those and was adapted later to work on the 2600 and 7800s.

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 12/6/2022 at 2:32 PM, Matt300ZXT said:

Hopefully you can find the dead resistor or capacitor.  I was testing EVERY resistor I could for being in spec and it was just taking up too much of my time.  I hope you're able to find the fault.

In the end, I never was able to point at one specific cause as being the culprit.  Once the dead transistor (Q200 or Q201; I forget) was found, the decision was made to just go the whole hog and do the recap plus transistors and resistor as well.  Given that the 6507 had also taken a dump, just shotgunning them and seeing if that led to any improvements before anything else went up in smoke seemed like the best approach.

 

Based on what @-^CrossBow^- mentioned earlier in the thread, though, R101 seems like a likely culprit - or, at the very least, major contributor.

[+x=usr(1536)]

11 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Only the test cart that can be bought from the AA store or download the image for it and use on a flash cart which, is what I do.

Yep, that's what I'm doing as well.  Thanks for that; just wanted to be sure that I hadn't missed anything that might be worth looking into.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

8 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Yep, that's what I'm doing as well.  Thanks for that; just wanted to be sure that I hadn't missed anything that might be worth looking into.

There is I believe an official test cartridge that uses some wired up plugs you stick into the controller ports that does more. But honestly... if the color bar generator comes up and the Test cart comes up. It at least tells me the main logic is mostly good to go. The other tests are to make sure the other functions are working. I also use different carts to check compatibility and stability. Like my pluscart or Unocarts for instance.

 

I also use Pitfall II and H.E.R.O. for burn in testing as they have self playing demos and are good to plug in and leave running for a few hours to make sure everything is good.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

18 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I also use Pitfall II and H.E.R.O. for burn in testing as they have self playing demos and are good to plug in and leave running for a few hours to make sure everything is good.

Thanks for the suggestions on those two; Galagon and Mappy were also added into the mix to make sure that the Harmony Encore was stable in that machine.  Given that nothing crashed overnight, I think this one can be called done

[Matt300ZXT]

On 12/15/2022 at 1:57 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

There is I believe an official test cartridge that uses some wired up plugs you stick into the controller ports that does more. But honestly... if the color bar generator comes up and the Test cart comes up. It at least tells me the main logic is mostly good to go. The other tests are to make sure the other functions are working. I also use different carts to check compatibility and stability. Like my pluscart or Unocarts for instance.

 

I also use Pitfall II and H.E.R.O. for burn in testing as they have self playing demos and are good to plug in and leave running for a few hours to make sure everything is good.

 

I actually built 2 of those test plugs but never could get a test cartridge.  People recommended against it and to use the other cart with the color bar generator, etc but I could never get the guy who runs the store here to reply back to an email.  A little later than that, I tried actually selling these consoles I had refurbished and modded and didn't get a bite on a single one.  No one aspiring to be in the Atari community has a dime of money.  They seem to think they're getting a refurbished and modded 2600 for what they can get an untested one from a yard sale for, so I pretty much said to hell with the community and moved on to tinker with other consoles lol 

[+-^CrossBow^-]

30 minutes ago, Matt300ZXT said:

I actually built 2 of those test plugs but never could get a test cartridge.  People recommended against it and to use the other cart with the color bar generator, etc but I could never get the guy who runs the store here to reply back to an email.  A little later than that, I tried actually selling these consoles I had refurbished and modded and didn't get a bite on a single one.  No one aspiring to be in the Atari community has a dime of money.  They seem to think they're getting a refurbished and modded 2600 for what they can get an untested one from a yard sale for, so I pretty much said to hell with the community and moved on to tinker with other consoles lol 

The one you are talking about is the color bar generator and that I also use for some testing. There is also the one just called Test Cart that Paul Slocum did sometime back. That one also has primary colors as bars along with a semi graphical view of the controllers and switches...etc. It even has small bars on the bottom that match up with each of the 4 possible paddle controllers so you can be sure all the paddle lines are good. So between those two and burn in testing with the games I mentioned, you have most of what you would need.

 

As for premodded consoles not selling, I can't answer for that. I don't offer pre-modded consoles for sale usually and just have folks send their systems to me to work on them. There have been a few times where I had an extra spare console sitting around I didn't need and those I've sold through here. I think the last one I sold was an RGB upgraded Sears model Intellivision. It didn't last long as I recall in the for sale section.

 

[+scorpio_ny]

Thanks @x=usr(1536) and @-^CrossBow^- for the information on this thread. I successfully installed UAV with the IAB into one of my light sixers. I had ordered the built plug in version. Next time, I will order the kit version that will let allow me other options of installs (as it was suggested here). Interestingly enough, the  install worked fine in testing for a while and then  when doing more tests, my 2600 started auto fire. The 4050 went bad. Luckily, since I have a lot of retro gear, I had already purchased some spare parts on hand in case something happened. I quickly swapped it out and I was up and running. 

 

By the way, the backbit cartridge seems to work very nicely with the 2600!

[+x=usr(1536)]

17 hours ago, scorpio_ny said:

By the way, the backbit cartridge seems to work very nicely with the 2600!

Glad to hear it.  I'm actually very interested in these; if you have any sort of review you'd like to give of it, I'd read that thread