best classic computer to begin collecting for?

[Frozone212]

I'm looking to start a classic computer collection. Any idea where to start?

 

I don't have a CRT but I do have a Gsync monitor

[Tanooki]

I'd argue for a DOS PC, maybe Pentium 100 give or take just so you have a good range of old 386 games up until it's era as that'll cover the true golden great era of DOS gaming into the 95/98 days.

[Steven Pendleton]

I'd go cart-only MSX/MSX2. Won't be stupidly expensive as long as you stay the hell away from Metal Gear and Metal Gear 2, and the carts are going to be more durable than floppies. I wouldn't say MSX is the best old computer (that would be the X68000), but MSX is cool anyway because there are a lot of cool MSX computers to choose from.

[+OLD CS1]

On 11/18/2022 at 9:23 PM, Tanooki said:

I'd argue for a DOS PC, maybe Pentium 100 give or take just so you have a good range of old 386 games up until it's era as that'll cover the true golden great era of DOS gaming into the 95/98 days.

Sorry, I am not laughing at you.  It just tickles me to hear a DOS PC considered as a "classic" computer.  I get it, it just sounds funny to me.

[Frozone212]

I'm considering possibly a Commodore 128 or maybe Vic 20. what other options are there (I'm from the U.S so no PAL based systems will work)

[wierd_w]

2 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

Sorry, I am not laughing at you.  It just tickles me to hear a DOC PC considered as a "classic" computer.  I get it, it just sounds funny to me.

 

I mean, I understand the sentiment, but be wary of greybeard elitism there CS1.   I mean, you might be told that it's not an IBM series 300 mainframe with reel to reel magnetic mass storage, or a Hollerith card reader by the even greyer greybeards.

(If I were 10 years older or so, I would have been cutting teeth on a C64, or an Apple II instead, much like yourself.)

 

I am 40, and cut teeth on IBM PCs.  The Overton Window changes over time.   As silly as it sounds, some kids will mention early Android Tablets as the thing they consider a "Classic Computer" at some point in the future.

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by wierd_w

[+OLD CS1]

6 hours ago, wierd_w said:

be wary of greybeard elitism there CS1.

No.  I embrace it.  Without it, there is no drive to preserve what "belongs" to me.

 

To paraphrase GW McLintock: "Fellas my age generally call me OLD, or CS1.  Youngsters call me Mr. CS1."

[Turbo-Torch]

14 hours ago, Frozone212 said:

I'm considering possibly a Commodore 128 or maybe Vic 20. what other options are there (I'm from the U.S so no PAL based systems will work)

 

If you're going with oddballs at opposite ends of the spectrum, why not also consider the 16 and plus/4?

[oracle_jedi]

15 hours ago, Frozone212 said:

I'm considering possibly a Commodore 128 or maybe Vic 20. what other options are there (I'm from the U.S so no PAL based systems will work)

 

You've already stated that you're using a GSYNC monitor, so for anything from the 1980s you are going to have to use a Retrotink or equivalent.  Therefore PAL/NTSC is irrelevant, although some import machines can be hard to adapt to North American power, whereas others are a simple 9V DC wall wart.  A 220V step up transformer is sometimes the answer, although if you're brave you can also hack most older machines to run on a different PSU.  At the end of the day most power supplies end up delivering +5V/+12V and sometimes -5V or -12V.

 

The C128 is a great choice.  Prices are still surprisingly low and the machine is 4 computers in one; Commodore MAX, C64, CP/M and native C128.  The C64 is well known and well supported.  CP/M can be interesting for those who enjoy such things (including me).  Native C128 mode is great but there isn't much that uses it.  Failure rates of C64s and C128s is quite high so be prepared to do some diagnostics and repair work.  MOS branded ICs were notorious and many of the ICs; PLA/SID/CHAR ROM/Kernel/BASIC and SID are all failure prone.  The good news is repairs are usually easy.

 

The VIC is a fine choice but is limited.  My first computer it has a special place in my retro heart, and I love the chunky graphics and games written to use PETSCII characters.  Many people would quickly get bored with it.  The older gold-badge units are built like tanks and failure rates are low.  But the video signal wasn't remotely in-spec in 1981 and time hasn't helped.  Old monitors were forgiving of such variance, but modern upscalers less so.  I use Sony PVM with mine and it is lovely.   On the LCD the image jumps every few seconds.

 

For North American beginners another option to consider is the TI99/4A.   They sold 5 million so they are not rare in the U.S.  Prices and still low for consoles and accessories.   Well supported by a wonderful community which is also refreshingly low-drama compared to the ego-dominated Commodore and (some) Atari areas.  Another bonus is the TI was built to an extremely high standard.   I swear those computers could survive an EMP blast.  Add a 32K RAM expansion, a Flash GROM cart and an Atari joystick adapter - all easily available - and you have a retro platform you can explore and enjoy.   You can even add an F18A to get native VGA out from the unit, which also opens up new game ports such as Super Mario and Zaxxon.

 

Edited November 19, 2022 by oracle_jedi

[Frozone212]

i'll keep them in mind. btw, how high a failure rate for the 128?

[oracle_jedi]

2 hours ago, Frozone212 said:

i'll keep them in mind. btw, how high a failure rate for the 128?

My sample rate may not be large enough to draw any conclusions, but I have two C64s and a C128.  All three have failed at some point with bad PLAs, BASIC, Char ROM and a blown SID.  All despite using a Ray Carlson PSU.  

 

The C128 had dry solder on the power switch and one of the ROM chips had worked itself loose from the socket.   It also needs a recap as it still fails to power up to a BASIC prompt until it has had a chance to warm up.

 

By comparison in my collection of 2 Atari 400s, 2 Atari 800s, an 800XL and four 1200XLs none have failed except for the well known 1200XL keyboard mylar issues. 

 

FWIW the Commodore keyboards are built to a high standard, esp the C128 which has a wonderful keyboard, and a great version of BASIC, so if you want to keep working on your BASIC projects it would be a great platform to use.  I have been a frequent critic of the breadbin keyboard of the VIC and 64 due to its ergonomic position but the C128 resolved that, and it is a delight to type on.

 

If you are paying $$$ on Ebay or similar I would advise looking for evidence the unit powers up to the BASIC prompt.   The output of a diagnostic cart proving all systems are operational would be even better.

 

Once you get your C128 I would also advise removing the lid and ensuring all ICs are properly seated, and that the thermal paste that drains heat to the RF shield is refreshed.  Better yet consider investing in some copper heat sinks for the major ICs to better protect them for the long haul.

 

Good luck!

 

[Arnuphis]

Are you looking to collect for something obscure or are you just looking for something easy to collect for?

What do you plan to do with your collection? Is it something you will be just collecting to look at and enjoy or do you want to program something or build things for it? Are you looking to make a profit on selling it in the future? (The ship has really sailed on this one) or will you keeping it forever?

 

I always say pick something that has a nostalgia for you first. Because it will evoke nice memories. Or maybe something you always wanted as a kid but never got.

 

For price, ease of use, supply of spares and general support its obviously going to be Apple, Atari, Commodore, Sinclair and then TI, Acorn, Amstrad etc. While its fun to get something a little rarer and obscure bear in mind you will be relying on a very limited knowledge base when it comes to help and fixing them, getting software/peripherals etc. 

 

 

 

[bluejay]

6 hours ago, oracle_jedi said:

FWIW the Commodore keyboards are built to a high standard, esp the C128 which has a wonderful keyboard, and a great version of BASIC, so if you want to keep working on your BASIC projects it would be a great platform to use.  I have been a frequent critic of the breadbin keyboard of the VIC and 64 due to its ergonomic position but the C128 resolved that, and it is a delight to type on.

Interesting, I found the C128’s keyboard to be godawful. In fact, it’s my least favorite “proper” keyboard that I have ever typed on. The keys were very spring and mushy and the weird offset of the key rows results in many typos. 
 

Of course, this is entirely subjective, but still, I wouldn’t recommend buying a C128 for its keyboard. 

[+swlovinist]

Great question and already some good responses from longtime computer and gaming enthusiasts.   I think there are several different computers to begin with.   All depends on what you are going to enjoy collecting and gaming the most.   For older computers, I have found much enjoyment collecting for vintage computers such as the TI-99 4/A, The Commodore Vic-20, The Commodore 64, and the Atari 8 bit.    Each computer has its pros and cons, but there are several people in the established communities that would help you get going.   While harder to get a modded computer and setup for North America, the ZX spectrum series of computers is also another choice due to the vast number of aftermarket support and games still made as well.  

 

Also, have to state that the TI-99 4/A community is awesome.   Great group of people and are very welcoming to others from my experiences.   I typically found many subforums here to be extremely helpful to those  who are wanting to start collecting.   

[Tanooki]

Not offended, just don't see the humor either.  Even if i threw out the P100 suggestion I could have said a 486 too or a 386.  What really is fair to be called 'classic' at this rate?  I got a 386 the first in our home Christmas of 1990 and it had DOS5.0 on it and various Headstart/Magnavox odd tools with it, shortly after added Windows 3.  None of this stuff works right anymore in general, various levels of right down to near-ish perfect via DOSBox of some flavor, but it's not the same.  THat hardware is 30-40+ years removed depending how far you want to creep back into the 8086 era.  I just don't think being called a classic computer is entitled to the stuff people find obscure and offbeat stuff that just died out, C64, TI, various Atari, non-american like MSX, Speccy, etc.

[carlsson]

On 11/19/2022 at 5:18 AM, Steven Pendleton said:

I'd go cart-only MSX/MSX2.

It perhaps is doable if you live in Japan, but for someone presumably living in the US, it might be one of the hardest systems to collect for. Even by European standards, MSX is rarely seen and the carts that come up - in particular the entire Konami collection, not just the Metal Gear series - tend to get quite pricey.

 

If going with one machine and get peripherals and software, I'd definitely go with C64, in particular if you're not picky about what you get. It probably should have as many items available for sale as all of the VIC-20, C128, TI-99/4A, Atari 8-bit etc together.

 

A late era MS-DOS or early Windows PC might be interesting as well, depending what you expect to do with it. There are plenty of expansion boards for you to choose from, tinker with for best performance per dollar, perhaps connect it to your LAN if you trust your firewall enough, but it is a very different type of ballgame than the 8-bit systems.

[+OLD CS1]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

I just don't think being called a classic computer is entitled to the stuff people find obscure and offbeat stuff that just died out, C64, TI, various Atari, non-american like MSX, Speccy, etc.

That is where the humor lies.  Humor is about the unexpected.  PCs today are descendant of a long-lived architecture, so it never occurs to me to consider them "classic."  With the exception of PCs which can only run DOS, I never expect these computers to be called "classic" and hearing them called so makes me laugh because I do not expect it but, as I said before, I get it.

 

6 hours ago, swlovinist said:

I just don't think being called a classic computer is entitled to the stuff people find obscure and offbeat stuff that just died out, C64, TI, various Atari, non-american like MSX, Speccy, etc.

We pride ourselves on being a right friendly lot, though highly opinionated and read the damned FAQ

 

[Keatah]

On 11/18/2022 at 8:18 PM, Frozone212 said:

I'm looking to start a classic computer collection. Any idea where to start?

You may simply want to start with what piques your interest. Look to see what others are doing. You might like it. You might dislike it. It's like food, or the color of a car. It's a personal choice and everyone will have their pet suggestions as to what machine(s) to get. But only you can decide whether you like it or not.

 

We can tell you things about the various platforms, facts, opinions, repairs, strengths, weaknesses, availability, and a whole lot more. We can tell you what we like or dislike, and why. We cannot tell you what you will like. It's a personal choice.

 

So to that end I've I've settled in on just 2 major and 2 minor platforms in this brave new 21'st Century. Apple II, PC, TRS-80 Pocket Computer, TI-59. All the other systems I pick up through emulation. I enjoy the physical platforms for their sentimentality as that's my original stuff. And emulation of course enabled my All-In-One dream machine. It's got the ability to play every game from every system (including arcades) on one box. With convenience and reliability and versatility. Divvying things up this way seems a good balance for me.

 

Aaannd now we slide into the obligatory emulator rant. (Like those sleazy cheapshot in-video ads spouted by the content creators themselves.) It shall begin by having you know that when I look up in awe at my god-like emulator rig it glows in a kind of light which mere mortal man isn't fit to observe. It's that good!

 

It's my personal 80's arcade. It's all the systems I had as a kid, wanted as a kid, couldn't afford as a kid, weren't allowed to have as a kid. And so on and so forth. All in one. Really shines on the days we're snowed in with 2 meters accumulation that isn't stopping. Saves hours long commutes to an arcade that may or may not have the game I wanna play. Lets me enjoy the oldies with a newfound aspect of reliability and consistency. In the comfort of cozy home with an expansive snack bar otherwise known as the kitchen. Includes all the 70's and 80's music if so desired. And there's the choice of sitting or standing. Playing with my controllers of choice. It's the way to go!

 

When it comes to maintenance and there's a problem - I'm fixing not just one (virtual/emulated) machine, but ALL of them in one fell swoop. I could not imagine going and doing this on 10 arcade cabs and 25 consoles. Just ain't happening. But I will sit down for an hour or two on a crisp Sunday morning to adjust microswitch positions or clean contacts. Not that that's a regular occurrence. Just say'n.

 

And just in the other room or off to the side, depending how I set it up, is my ancient hardware. It rounds out the experience and keeps everything grounded in reality.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Keatah

[Steven Pendleton]

10 hours ago, carlsson said:

It perhaps is doable if you live in Japan, but for someone presumably living in the US, it might be one of the hardest systems to collect for. Even by European standards, MSX is rarely seen and the carts that come up - in particular the entire Konami collection, not just the Metal Gear series - tend to get quite pricey.

Cart-only MSX games are cheap on ebay, though...

[carlsson]

I must be looking in the wrong part of eBay, or else my definition of cheap differs from rest of the world.

[Hwlngmad]

Throwing my two cents into the discussion, I would say the best classic computer(s) to collect for (in North America) would be the following:

 

1) Vic-20

2) TI99/4a (just don't buy the cost-reduced beige version)

3) C64

4) Atari 800 XL (though if you can score a good deal on an 800, XEGS, 130 XE those would be fine too)

5) DOS PC (8088 through Pentium I)

 

However, this is just my opinion.  Lots of good options outside of the NA such as some great British computers like the ZX Spectrum, Acorn Electron, etc.

[Frozone212]

1 hour ago, Hwlngmad said:

Throwing my two cents into the discussion, I would say the best classic computer(s) to collect for (in North America) would be the following:

 

1) Vic-20

2) TI99/4a (just don't buy the cost-reduced beige version)

3) C64

4) Atari 800 XL (though if you can score a good deal on an 800, XEGS, 130 XE those would be fine too)

5) DOS PC (8088 through Pentium I)

 

However, this is just my opinion.  Lots of good options outside of the NA such as some great British computers like the ZX Spectrum, Acorn Electron, etc.

any computers that will let me use my own tape drive? I already have tapes for it. I'm willing to suffer. What about the TS2068. Seems like a good choice for me. I will keep all these in mind. 

[carlsson]

I do believe that TI supports your own tape recorder, and so would the Timex Sinclair 2068, which is a bit of an oddball but with compatibility ROM can be made to act like a ZX Spectrum.

 

All the Commodore and Atari computers use proprietary tape recorders, which though tend to be reasonably priced. On the US market though, tapes were only common in the first couple of years (so early Atari 400/800 and VIC-20 titles), before the market switched to floppy disks. In Europe, tapes stuck much longer.

[Frozone212]

Last question: Do I need an adaptor for any of these computers to hook them up to my monitor? The only tv's we have are HD and 4k

[Keatah]

Depends on the connectors available on the monitor/tv itself. They must of course be the same as what you have on the computer. If not, then you need to get converters and adapters. Or possibly conduct mods on the computers so they output a compatible signal.

 

You said you had a G-Sync monitor in the first post. I will guess that it will only have HDMI and possibly Display Port. If that so, then yes, you'll need to get adapters or do video mods.

Edited November 21, 2022 by Keatah