Fluid simulation for new 2600 game concept

[8bitPoet]

So I've been toying around with the idea of using an animated playfield as a game mechanic.

 

In this concept art, I'm using the playfield to represent a waterbed (dark green) with physics that interact with the player sprites to dip when landed on and propel player sprites where it swells.

 

I'm not aware of any games that have this sort of physics simulation, but it could make for some unique gameplay. Think Circus meets Frogger meets waterbed.

 

As a non-developer, I'm wondering:

1. if this is even feasible
2. if I have false expectations of what can be achieved with missile sprites (see non-player sprites layer)
3. if there's anyone crazy enough to collaborate with me to make this into a real game

 

Also open to any feedback or suggestions.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

1. The physics sound feasible. If the graphics are feasible depends on details, like e.g. will the waves be symmetric like in your example?
2. Regarding the missile sprites: These can only be 1, 2, 4 or 8 pixel wide. So you graphics are not possible.
3. That will be the hardest part. You have a better chance the more details you provide. But it will still be low.

 

 

 

 

[8bitPoet]

1 minute ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

1. The physics sound feasible. If the graphics are feasible depends on details, like e.g. will the waves be symmetric like in your example?
2. Regarding the missile sprites: These can only be 1, 2, 4 or 8 pixel wide. So you graphics are not possible.
3. That will be the hardest part. You have a better chance the more details you provide. But it will still be low.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Thomas.

 

RE: 1. physics and playfield. You're right. I totally forgot about the playfield needing to be repeated or mirrored. The concept art has it asymmetrical, which I don't think could be pulled of at this resolution.

RE: 2. missile sprites: Do they have to be blocks or can they have some pixel definition? And can they be repeated or am I limited to only 2 on the screen at any given time?

RE: 3. collaboration: I totally understand. Most people already have game ideas of their own or already involved in a project. I'm collaborating with @ZackAttack on a project of his called Octopusher, which has got me interested in exploring other unique game concepts.

[Thomas Jentzsch]

27 minutes ago, 8bitPoet said:

RE: 1. physics and playfield. You're right. I totally forgot about the playfield needing to be repeated or mirrored. The concept art has it asymmetrical, which I don't think could be pulled of at this resolution.

Depends on how much else is happening on each scanline.

 

BTW: Using playfield and background, you can only have 2 colors per scanlines. Your mockup shows 3 (brown, bright green, dark green). You could create a 3rd color by mixing two colors on alternating scanlines.

27 minutes ago, 8bitPoet said:

RE: 2. missile sprites: Do they have to be blocks or can they have some pixel definition? And can they be repeated or am I limited to only 2 on the screen at any given time?

Blocks. They can be repeated, but then their corresponding sprites are repeated too. Unlike the width and position, which are independent.

27 minutes ago, 8bitPoet said:

RE: 3. collaboration: I totally understand. Most people already have game ideas of their own or already involved in a project. I'm collaborating with @ZackAttack on a project of his called Octopusher, which has got me interested in exploring other unique game concepts.

Octopusher is quite cool. So don't give up your idea too early. Maybe it can be adapted to the given constrains.

[8bitPoet]

16 minutes ago, Thomas Jentzsch said:

Octopusher is quite cool. So don't give up your idea too early. Maybe it can be adapted to the given constrains.

Thanks! I'm supplying the graphics and offering some creativity where there's opportunity, but the origin of the game is all Zack. Super fun to play!

 

I'm already tweaking my mockup to work within the graphic restrictions. I'm even going to animate it to help with the visualization. I'll post an update when it's ready.

[8bitPoet]

I've mocked up how it could look using an animated playfield for simulated physics. (The bedposts might be an issue, since I'm using the playfield for the wavy shape)

I'm hoping there's a way to shift the peaks and valleys on the x axis based on where the player lands, but that sounds either impossible or a massive technical hurdle. 

 

What do you guys think? Does this look like an idea worth pursuing? Has anything like this been done before?

 

[ZackAttack]

The latest mockup looks feasible. A few color changes mid scanline should be fine.

 

How exactly would this be played? I bet it's going to be tricky to tune the controls.

[8bitPoet]

1 hour ago, ZackAttack said:

How exactly would this be played? I bet it's going to be tricky to tune the controls.

In single player mode, the player would control the airborne monkey left and right. Trying to get enough height to collect items that will be floating across the top of the screen. They’ll also want to position their landing in the optimal distance from the monkey on the bed to get maximum propulsion. If the bounce has enough power, the player may be able to reach the curtain rod and grab on by holding down the button. Then they could shimmy left and right to grab bonus items or precisely select their drop location. 
Two player mode would allow each monkey to be controlled by a player. There could even be PvP and Co-op modes.

I’ve included the bedposts as an initial launch pad, but also in case the bouncing loses momentum. If that happens, the player can climb up and jump back onto the bed to reactive the waves. 

I’m still thinking about ways to introduce more difficulty, possibly multiple levels, power-ups, etc. 

[Thomas Jentzsch]

3 hours ago, 8bitPoet said:

The bedposts might be an issue, since I'm using the playfield for the wavy shape

Maybe. But like I wrote above, this can be handled by mixing two colors. E.g. green and brown where the bright green would be created by a mix of both.

 

And you can keep the nice diagonals, because playfield and missiles can overlap and you can shift missiles each scanline.

3 hours ago, 8bitPoet said:

I'm hoping there's a way to shift the peaks and valleys on the x axis based on where the player lands, but that sounds either impossible or a massive technical hurdle. 

You would have to use an asymmetrical playfield. This will cost some CPU cycles, but it should be still possible to handle two sprites at the same scanline. 

 

The math might become a bit tricky, but should be feasible.

3 hours ago, 8bitPoet said:

What do you guys think? Does this look like an idea worth pursuing? Has anything like this been done before?

To me it looks very unique. Go for it!  

[Ecernosoft]

On 11/30/2022 at 1:39 PM, 8bitPoet said:

So I've been toying around with the idea of using an animated playfield as a game mechanic.

 

In this concept art, I'm using the playfield to represent a waterbed (dark green) with physics that interact with the player sprites to dip when landed on and propel player sprites where it swells.

 

I'm not aware of any games that have this sort of physics simulation, but it could make for some unique gameplay. Think Circus meets Frogger meets waterbed.

 

As a non-developer, I'm wondering:

1. if this is even feasible
2. if I have false expectations of what can be achieved with missile sprites (see non-player sprites layer)
3. if there's anyone crazy enough to collaborate with me to make this into a real game

 

Also open to any feedback or suggestions.

The lives counter has to be moved down.

[+ZeroPage Homebrew]

On 11/30/2022 at 7:55 PM, 8bitPoet said:

What do you guys think? Does this look like an idea worth pursuing? Has anything like this been done before?

 

This looks like it could be a TON of fun, especially with a two player option with each player controlling a monkey. I've never seen something quite like this before and it makes me believe that a decent version of Wavy Navy could possibly be created for the Atari 2600.

 

- James

[Ecernosoft]

On 12/31/2022 at 1:12 PM, ZeroPage Homebrew said:

 

This looks like it could be a TON of fun, especially with a two player option with each player controlling a monkey. I've never seen something quite like this before and it makes me believe that a decent version of Wavy Navy could possibly be created for the Atari 2600.

 

- James

I have to agree. It would be a unique, stand-out game! (And better than any of the stuff I created  )

[Sohl]

On 12/1/2022 at 2:32 AM, Thomas Jentzsch said:

You would have to use an asymmetrical playfield. This will cost some CPU cycles, but it should be still possible to handle two sprites at the same scanline. 

 

The math might become a bit tricky, but should be feasible.

To me it looks very unique. Go for it!  

I agree it's possible.  I did a lot of asymmetric playfield in my game Immunity for score and status bars.

I recommend pre-computing as much of the math as possible and put it in tables for relatively simple look-up operations rather than number crunching on the CPU.  

[8bitPoet]

Thank you for the great feedback @ZeroPage Homebrew @Ecernosoft @Sohl

 

I haven't moved the Lives Counter yet, but updated the mockup to include the following:

1. A Goal - Try to catch the fly that goes across the screen

2. A Hazard - Watch out for that ceiling fan!

3. A Bonus - Grab the fruit before it disappears

 

 

Any other thoughts or comments?

[8bitPoet]

On 1/1/2023 at 8:28 PM, Sohl said:

I recommend pre-computing as much of the math as possible and put it in tables for relatively simple look-up operations rather than number crunching on the CPU.

I've created the waves using only 6 frames of animation. If there's a way to simply shift the art left or right to align with the landing player, I might be able to avoid a lot of number crunching.

[Ecernosoft]

3 hours ago, 8bitPoet said:

Thank you for the great feedback @ZeroPage Homebrew @Ecernosoft @Sohl

 

I haven't moved the Lives Counter yet, but updated the mockup to include the following:

1. A Goal - Try to catch the fly that goes across the screen

2. A Hazard - Watch out for that ceiling fan!

3. A Bonus - Grab the fruit before it disappears

 

 

Any other thoughts or comments?

I must mention some things.
1. That fan requires 2 player sprites.

2. Due to player sprite limitations, the lives counter will need to be moved up or down, or be represented with blocks. Either that or you will need to trigger RESP0 twice per scanline and really?!?

3. Reminder that the Missile sprites can only be 1, 2, 4, or 8 pix wide so the side border is impossible.

 

 

And, to help with the bouncy floor....

 

 

I reccomend using EXTRA RAM in the cartridge so you can read the RAM instead. Will make the calculating much easier. And you can have more frames of animation. (Ex. 12 or 16 frames instead of just 6) or ditching the EXTRA RAM and just having more frames.... period.  there's some clever compression you can use to store as little as you need. Heck, just store 8 frames of one bump and when the PF1 bump goes up, the PF2 one goes down.

[+Stephen]

30 minutes ago, 8bitPoet said:

 

Any other thoughts or comments?

Emphasis mine.

 

Thoughts - this makes me laugh hysterically.  It's like you captured me and my younger brother, back when the 2600 was new and on sale, jumping on our parents' waterbed, and nearly hitting our head on the ceiling fan.

 

Something we did - was try to throw a wadded up pair of socks into the rotating ceiling fan.  We figured the harder we threw them, the better chance they would have of hitting the ceiling and rebounding back without hitting the fan blade.  It sometimes happened with the fan on medium.  With the fan on high - the fan launched 'em every time!

[8bitPoet]

LOL! Thanks for sharing, @Stephen

Sounds like we grew up around the same time. I have two brothers and we were always inventing games that would likely end with one of us getting injured. Good times.

 

Hopefully this game will capture at least half the fun that we had trying to get ourselves killed.

[ZackAttack]

7 hours ago, 8bitPoet said:

Thank you for the great feedback @ZeroPage Homebrew @Ecernosoft @Sohl

 

I haven't moved the Lives Counter yet, but updated the mockup to include the following:

1. A Goal - Try to catch the fly that goes across the screen

2. A Hazard - Watch out for that ceiling fan!

3. A Bonus - Grab the fruit before it disappears

 

 

Any other thoughts or comments?

From a gameplay perspective this looks like a winner. From a technical perspective it looks completely feasible. Here on my thoughts on how this could be achieved.

1. The fan can be done by using a player for the down rod and light and playfield for the blades.
2. The bonus items can use the same player repositioned in the vertical space between the fan and the fruit.
3. The fly can use the ball
4. Monkeys use one player each, but since only one of them flies up at a time, they only consume both players on the bottom of the screen.
5. Curves for the headboard and the mattress can be done with background color changes and playfield.
6. Left and right edges of the mattress can be smoothed with a missile and player being moved since only one monkey reaches that region at a time.
7. The score and lives remaining can use the 18 characters kernel (36 character with double width glyphs)
8. This would translate well to the 320-pixel wide mode of the 7800. The curves will be super smooth.

 

[Ecernosoft]

4 hours ago, ZackAttack said:

From a gameplay perspective this looks like a winner. From a technical perspective it looks completely feasible. Here on my thoughts on how this could be achieved.

1. The fan can be done by using a player for the down rod and light and playfield for the blades.
2. The bonus items can use the same player repositioned in the vertical space between the fan and the fruit.
3. The fly can use the ball
4. Monkeys use one player each, but since only one of them flies up at a time, they only consume both players on the bottom of the screen.
5. Curves for the headboard and the mattress can be done with background color changes and playfield.
6. Left and right edges of the mattress can be smoothed with a missile and player being moved since only one monkey reaches that region at a time.
7. The score and lives remaining can use the 18 characters kernel (36 character with double width glyphs)
8. This would translate well to the 320-pixel wide mode of the 7800. The curves will be super smooth.

 

Maybe for extra challenge @8bitPoet you can add a mode where "birds" fly across the screen, or Bats (but you'd need to change the bk color to black) using the missiles..... just an "if time" though.

[8bitPoet]

@ZackAttack You've describe the screen construction exactly how I've planned it in my Photoshop doc. Although, I removed the mattress edge smoothing. Putting those back in will enhance the visuals.

 

3 hours ago, ZackAttack said:

The score and lives remaining can use the 18 characters kernel (36 character with double width glyphs)

Does this mean I could have player 1 score on the left and player 2 score on the right? I need to tweak the UI a little bit.

 

3 hours ago, ZackAttack said:

This would translate well to the 320-pixel wide mode of the 7800. The curves will be super smooth.

Definitely want do a 7800 version! (Another good candidate for your dual system cart) 

[8bitPoet]

3 hours ago, Ecernosoft said:

Maybe for extra challenge @8bitPoet you can add a mode where "birds" fly across the screen, or Bats (but you'd need to change the bk color to black) using the missiles..... just an "if time" though.

Thanks @Ecernosoft - Definitely need to put some thought into how to progress the difficulty of the game. I like the idea of adding more airborne obstacles.

[KevKelley]

6 minutes ago, 8bitPoet said:

Thanks @Ecernosoft - Definitely need to put some thought into how to progress the difficulty of the game. I like the idea of adding more airborne obstacles.

I immediately pictured a ceiling fan rotating, either by a missile sliding back and forth and changing thickness to appear as if it is spinning.  This game idea is amazing and needs to be done!

[8bitPoet]

2 minutes ago, KevKelley said:

I immediately pictured a ceiling fan rotating, either by a missile sliding back and forth and changing thickness to appear as if it is spinning.  This game idea is amazing and needs to be done!

Thanks @KevKelley! The ceiling fan seems so obvious now. I already added it to my latest animated mockup. It uses the playfield for the animated blades and a player sprite to construct the body.

 

[KevKelley]

I completely missed this!  My computer dropped down to the last comment but the fan looks awesome!