How good is the STE at 3d graphics?

[Ecernosoft]

hello!

After I'm done with ICT4 on the lynx, I wanted to make an ICT for the STE.

But then I thought, "Hmmm, how about a 3d ICT on the STE?"

I've seen STNICCC 2000 but after seeing much better ports to other systems (Heck, even the new origonal ST version is BETTER than the STE)

Of course it would work on the TT and Falcon (And change the graphics/sound to suit) as well.

 

Yeah, I know, it's not an ICT thread but the ICT series is kinda-my thing if it wasn't already obvious. (Heck, my old logo WAS the Conner Character)

 

So, just a question:

How good is the STE at 3d graphics?

How good is the TT and Falcon for that matter?

 

Thanks guys. (And if it does get a 3d ICT then it will get a 2d one as well.)

[mikro]

I have no idea what "ICT" means but you seem to be a bit confused. If you are referring to the original STNICCC2000 Demo for the STE (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1251) and comparing it with a version adapted for the ST made 20 years later (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=81064) then your comparison is quite unfair. Most importantly, the ST version can work on STE, too so picking the STE as something worse is totally inaccurate.

 

Generally speaking, ST/STE/TT is not very 3D graphics friendly, especially when talking about something more than flat shaded polygons because they lack per-pixel access when manipulating framebuffer. Of course, there are methods how to write into your own framebuffer and convert it to Atari screen format (so called chunky to planar conversion) but it's very costly.

 

Falcon is the first Atari to have a chunky-oriented graphics mode (16-bit hicolor pixels) but there's another problem that is the fact that its data bus is only 16-bit wide clocked at 16 MHz so drawing in 320x200 isn't exactly fast either.

 

But there are many demos and a few games which show really nice 3D environments on all platforms.

[TGB1718]

53 minutes ago, mikro said:

I have no idea what "ICT" means

Seconded ???

[bfollowell]

3 hours ago, TGB1718 said:

Seconded ???

Thirded. I have no idea what ICT, 3D ICT, or STNICCC 2000 are. Of course, I have zero interest in the demo scene, so if they're demos, that would explain why I have no idea what you're talking about. It looks like I'm not alone though.

 

Can you provide any better explanation or more info?

 

[zzip]

ST could do rudimentary 3D,  Here's a few games that were typical of what 3D games on ST were like (crude 3D objects, no texture mapping).  They were good games despite this

 

Starglider II:   http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st-starglider-ii_21358.html

The Sentinel:  http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st-sentinel-_25061.html

 

Someone also made a port of Wolfenstein 3D to ST, which I didn't think was possible back in the day:

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st-wolfenstein-3d_28676.html

 

[Ecernosoft]

7 hours ago, mikro said:

I have no idea what "ICT" means but you seem to be a bit confused. If you are referring to the original STNICCC2000 Demo for the STE (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=1251) and comparing it with a version adapted for the ST made 20 years later (https://www.pouet.net/prod.php?which=81064) then your comparison is quite unfair. Most importantly, the ST version can work on STE, too so picking the STE as something worse is totally inaccurate.

 

Generally speaking, ST/STE/TT is not very 3D graphics friendly, especially when talking about something more than flat shaded polygons because they lack per-pixel access when manipulating framebuffer. Of course, there are methods how to write into your own framebuffer and convert it to Atari screen format (so called chunky to planar conversion) but it's very costly.

 

Falcon is the first Atari to have a chunky-oriented graphics mode (16-bit hicolor pixels) but there's another problem that is the fact that its data bus is only 16-bit wide clocked at 16 MHz so drawing in 320x200 isn't exactly fast either.

 

But there are many demos and a few games which show really nice 3D environments on all platforms.

It’s Conner time = ICT.

 

Edit: and yes, I shod’ve said that the new one was 20 years

younger. 

 

Also, thanks for the info!

1 hour ago, zzip said:

ST could do rudimentary 3D,  Here's a few games that were typical of what 3D games on ST were like (crude 3D objects, no texture mapping).  They were good games despite this

 

Starglider II:   http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st-starglider-ii_21358.html

The Sentinel:  http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st-sentinel-_25061.html

 

Someone also made a port of Wolfenstein 3D to ST, which I didn't think was possible back in the day:

http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-st-wolfenstein-3d_28676.html

 

Thanks!

Edited December 7, 2022 by Ecernosoft

[ggn]

If people are still confused about ICT:

 

 

As for what a plain ST can do in terms of 3D here's a small selection of commercial games:

 

(Full 3D world, with not just simple polygons but circles/ellipses/arcs as well all working)

 

(Again, full 3D world sim which also features a neat space cutting polygon filler)

 

(Pretty much 3D environment which also features depth cueing, and dithering in order to simulate more shades of colours than actually possible to display).

 

So, the machine can hold its own, but on the other hand it's a 1979 CPU bolted on a 1985 motherboard, i.e. don't expect miracles. You have to do all the work by hand, all the calculations, all the drawing. On the STE you can get the blitter to help with the drawing but it's still a fair chunk of work.

 

Of course if you don't want to do this all by hand you could use something like 3D construction kit, which (sort of) gave us games like:

 

 

 

Alternatively, you could use a Basic class language like STOS 3D that gives you a lot of functionality with little code (and not great performance of course)

 

Lastly, I'll also chime in with the rest: The STE version of STNICCC demo features 4 channel mod music which takes roughly 1/3rd of CPU time. Which means that if one was to run the demo with play YM2149 music (like the ST version does), the demo would run faster. And of course in order to gain a bit more speed the ST version uses slightly more inaccurate math, making it look a bit less nice than it should (but hey, all's fair in the FPS wars!)...

Edited December 7, 2022 by ggn

[+DarkLord]

I think Simulcra should be mentioned here....

 

 

 

 

[Megalomaniac]

I'm pretty sure these are all running on the ST, did the STE have any advantages for 3D over the standard ST? The ST was probably already marginally ahead of the A500 in that area - although all the games pictured here were released for the Amiga too, most run slightly faster on the ST.

 

I'd forgotten how impressive The Killing Cloud looked.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Megalomaniac

[Sporny Kun]

The only 3D game I tried playing more than 30 secondes is Epic, a 3D space shooter. The intro is nice, mixes bitmap backdrops with 3d models, and a space-opera-esque MOD soundtrack, to present a settings largely inspired from galactica.

[zzip]

2 hours ago, Megalomaniac said:

I'm pretty sure these are all running on the ST, did the STE have any advantages for 3D over the standard ST? The ST was probably already marginally ahead of the A500 in that area - although all the games pictured here were released for the Amiga too, most run slightly faster on the ST.

 

I'd forgotten how impressive The Killing Cloud looked.

Maybe the blitter helped draw faster IDK?    Other than that the STe enhancements were not aimed at better 3D

[MrMaddog]

All ST computers can do flat shaded 3D graphics because it's mostly the CPU doing all the maths with the video being directly drawn on.

 

It's not only just the games but there was a 3D modeling program called Cyber Studio released back in the late 80's that was ahead of what was on other computers at the time, and was done by the same people who made 3DS Max on the PC.

 

My favorite 3D game on the ST is Resolution 101, which I was playing while everyone else was first seeing Wolfenstein 3D

 

21 hours ago, zzip said:

Maybe the blitter helped draw faster IDK?    Other than that the STe enhancements were not aimed at better 3D

 

Can't see anything the STe itself would offer aside from an extended color palette for rendering, but then it wasn't like the STe was a totally different computer unlike the Falcon was.

[masteries]

On 12/9/2022 at 3:53 PM, Megalomaniac said:

I'm pretty sure these are all running on the ST, did the STE have any advantages for 3D over the standard ST? The ST was probably already marginally ahead of the A500 in that area - although all the games pictured here were released for the Amiga too, most run slightly faster on the ST.

 

I'd forgotten how impressive The Killing Cloud looked.

 

Robocop 3 performs much better in a STE than ST

 

 

STE

 

 

 

ST

 

 

 

Framerate is better in the STE, obviously blitter is well used here;

as far I know STE blitter can draw patterns too.

 

 

From video recorder person: 

I use Steem and I configured the "STE" model (with CPU Speed at 8 Mhz) with a memory of 4 Mb and I left the speed at 100%.

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by masteries

[Atari030]

Zero 5?

 

 

Substation?

 

 

Stardust?

Wolf3D

 

 

These always stood out to me.

[Keops]

Stardust has no 3D though, it's all sprites and animated bitmaps, no polyfill

Edited December 12, 2022 by Keops

[+DarkLord]

Even the tunnel sections?

 

Thanks.

 

[Keops]

Even the tunnel sections indeed. They are animated bitmaps that are larger than the size of the screen. You can see that the vanishing point is scrolling as well. If it was really 3D, it would remain at the center of the screen. It's a nice visual trick, it just takes a lot of memory.

[Atari030]

Stardust is still a marvel. I guess you can add Dread to the list too.

 

 

[Megalomaniac]

Zero 5 looks really impressive, I'm not sure that the standard ST could do that. Have they sued the blitter for extra effects? Hard to be sure exactly what the STe's potential was, because almost all STe-only stuff was by small specialist companies rather than the big games.

[Atari030]

No way it could do it. There were quite a few STE optimised games, but, the STFM had a massive head start and doing the extra work made it cost prohibitive. I guess if you want to equate that to the ECS Amiga there would have been very few games that used the A600's extra RAM capabilities. Breaking A500 compatibility by that stage wouldn't have been smart. 
The STE is definitely capable of a lot more than the STFM. They are marvelous machines. My MegaSTE gets more use than my Falcons.

[Chri O.]

Armour Geddon, released in 1991 for the Atari ST by Psygnosis. If you have another ST you can play with a friend in multiplayer mode via RS232 serial port. (up to 25 colors on-screen simultaneously ? Read the description )

 

 

[Fadest]

We can also add both Midwinter to the list, and Damocles (follow up of Mercenary that was wireframe).

Elite & Frontier

Stunt Car Racer, F1GP, No Second Prize for the recing genre

 

There are a lot of good (for the time) 3D games on ST/STE, but I can't think of a 3d platformer, maybe because drawing a main character that is not a ship or car would require a lot or ressource, so most games are in first person view. Also, the genre has been defined years after by games like Super Mario 64 / Tomb Raider & co

 

Hunter use a third person view, but it is not a platformer. And the framerate is too low for a platformer.

 

So could probably be possible but with a very abstract & not too complex world.

 

[oky2000]

Virus is a great example of a 3D game for the ST and for relative performance for other 1986/87 computers you can compare it to Zarch (same game) on the Acorn Archimedes.

 

If you mean Mega STE i.e. 16mhz 68000 3D games then I have no idea as I've not had a chance to play with the Mega STE much since boxing it up after a quick test when purchased. Posh demo by Checkpoint has an awesome Doom style engine section for a stock ST though which is mighty IMO.

 

As for me, I wasn't interested in 3D gaming before PS1 Ridge Racer level of graphics, possibly 3DO Need for Speed if that came out first.