4-port upgrades

[yodan]

Finally upgraded my 4-port. Power mod, audio caps and UAV installed. I did the piggyback on the 5040 which was not socketed from factory. I added s-video to my two port many years ago with the old kit. Glad I now have both models up and running with all mod cons.

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by yodan
wrong photo

[0078265317]

Great except now you cant use the vcs adapter with the 2 port.

[+x=usr(1536)]

14 hours ago, 0078265317 said:

Great except now you cant use the vcs adapter with the 2 port.

This is no great loss, and I say this as someone who has a weird love of that particular device.

 

Being serious for a moment, though, there may be a way to keep CX-55 VCS adapter compatibility on a UAV-modified 5200; with luck, it'll also be able to be a generic solution suitable for pretty much any A/V mod.  Can't really go further with it until after the New Year, but the idea is rattling around in my head.

[0078265317]

9 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

This is no great loss, and I say this as someone who has a weird love of that particular device.

 

Being serious for a moment, though, there may be a way to keep CX-55 VCS adapter compatibility on a UAV-modified 5200; with luck, it'll also be able to be a generic solution suitable for pretty much any A/V mod.  Can't really go further with it until after the New Year, but the idea is rattling around in my head.

Awesome!

[+-^CrossBow^-]

9 hours ago, x=usr(1536) said:

This is no great loss, and I say this as someone who has a weird love of that particular device.

 

Being serious for a moment, though, there may be a way to keep CX-55 VCS adapter compatibility on a UAV-modified 5200; with luck, it'll also be able to be a generic solution suitable for pretty much any A/V mod.  Can't really go further with it until after the New Year, but the idea is rattling around in my head.

It also has to be stressed that even with a UAV in place, the VCS adapter should still in theory work without issue. But it would ONLY be from the RF output since the initial video signal from the VCS adapter isn't being fed to the UAV or other AV upgrade that has been installed. Most of the other kits take over the video signals and prevent them from going out to the RF modulator anymore hence why the VCS adapters don't work. But at least with the UAV, providing you keep the 4050 in circuit and the RF modulator in place, it should still work from the RF output side.

 

I know this has all been said before, but I see others comment that the VCS adapter is rendered useless with a UAV in place and that just isn't the case. If you also want UAV quality output from a 2600, then I say just UAV upgrade a 2600 and use that when you want to play 2600 stuff.

 

[+Mitch]

It has been a while since I installed a UAV but can you use it 7800 style and hook up the output from the vcs adapter to the TIA input of the UAV?

 

Mitch

[+-^CrossBow^-]

3 minutes ago, Mitch said:

It has been a while since I installed a UAV but can you use it 7800 style and hook up the output from the vcs adapter to the TIA input of the UAV?

 

Mitch

That would only bring over the colorburst and not the rest of the LUM signals from the TIA inside the VCS adapter. 

[+Mitch]

10 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

That would only bring over the colorburst and not the rest of the LUM signals from the TIA inside the VCS adapter. 

Ah, that's right. Now it is coming back to me. The UAV is processing chroma/luma signals not composite. 

 

So to make the VCS adapter work you would need something to take the composite output of the VCS adapter, clean it up and mix it with the composite output of the UAV. And I guess the same thing for audio, though that should be simpler.

 

Mitch

[+-^CrossBow^-]

If the VCS adapter is just providing a composite video that is fed directly to the RF modulator of the 5200, then there might be room to stick a second UAV or simple composite only board inside the VCS adapter and run the new composite output to the same video input pin on the cart port. From there, you feed that directly to the composite output jack you have installed. But you would have to cut the trace completely so it didn't feed back to the RF modulator at that point I suspect.

 

All academics and I know it is something that @x=usr(1536) is quite interested in pursuing. I will be curious to see how he goes about it all.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 12/15/2022 at 2:48 PM, Mitch said:

So to make the VCS adapter work you would need something to take the composite output of the VCS adapter, clean it up and mix it with the composite output of the UAV. And I guess the same thing for audio, though that should be simpler.

You're on basically the right track, though my thought was to switch the composite signal to the appropriate source (CX-55 or UAV) depending on whether or not the CX-55 was in use.  More:

On 12/15/2022 at 3:23 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

If the VCS adapter is just providing a composite video that is fed directly to the RF modulator of the 5200,

This is exactly what it does.  Per the schematics, it injects the composite signal into the RF modulator at more or less the last point it possibly can.  By doing this, it skips 99.9% of the 5200's video circuit, which means that it's easy to detect based on whether or not the pin at the cartridge port dedicated to its video signal is active.

On 12/15/2022 at 3:23 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

then there might be room to stick a second UAV or simple composite only board inside the VCS adapter and run the new composite output to the same video input pin on the cart port. From there, you feed that directly to the composite output jack you have installed. But you would have to cut the trace completely so it didn't feed back to the RF modulator at that point I suspect.

This is one potential approach, definitely.  I'm going for as much of a no-cut option as possible, however.

 

A while back, I dug up a circuit designed to automatically switch between two composite inputs (call them 'A' and 'B') depending on whether or not one of them is active.  Let's say that input 'A' is composite from the UAV and input 'B' is composite from the CX-55.  If 'A' is active, pass its signal to the composite output; if 'B' is active, pass its signal instead - and 'B' can only ever be active if the CX-55 is connected.  Basically, UAV by default unless the CX-55 is connected.

 

The one downside to being able to do this: S-Video from the CX-55 won't be feasible without significant modifications.  It only outputs composite to the 5200, so that's what we have to work with.  Given that the CX-55 is basically a 2600 inside, however, you could potentially install a UAV in it and output its signals like any other 2600 - but there's less usable space in one than in even a 2600 Jr., so anyone who can figure that one out without major surgery is someone I want to talk to The previous sentence is completely wrong; see here for why.

 

Audio is another matter, but that's one of the things to consider after the New Year.  It may be easiest to just integrate it into the composite switcher - basically, have 'A' and 'B' inputs for both audio and video, and switch to the appropriate one based on the video signal.  Using an Internal Audio Board may also be an option.  Need to do some evaluation to figure this one out.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

My suggestion was no cut...

 

I didn't explain that very well. What I meant was that you install the UAV into the VCS adapter internally. Instead of making any AV jacks on the VCS adapter, you just route the composite output from the UAV to the pin that the internal composite signal is being sent out on. That would require severing the trace inside the VCS adapter so that the internal composite is no longer getting out. Instead you provide the UAVs composite output on that pin. Then on the 5200 side, you just tap off that pin along the traces somewhere and route that back to the same RCA or TRRS jack..etc.. No switching needed. And provided the UAV can fit inside the VCS adapter somewhere, no cuts or case modifications are needed. Do the same with audio. I believe the audio from the VCS adapter is also routed through a cartridge port pin yes? If so, just tap off that in the same manner and run that to the RCAs. 

 

A switch wouldn't really be needed since the 5200 is essentially mostly dead with a VCS adapter plugged in and working thereby only one device at a time is going to be sending anything useful anyway.

 

Then again, I don't know how much room if any there is inside the VCS adapter as I've never owned one much less taken one apart.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 12/15/2022 at 4:41 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

My suggestion was no cut...

 

I didn't explain that very well. What I meant was that you install the UAV into the VCS adapter internally. Instead of making any AV jacks on the VCS adapter, you just route the composite output from the UAV to the pin that the internal composite signal is being sent out on. That would require severing the trace inside the VCS adapter so that the internal composite is no longer getting out. Instead you provide the UAVs composite output on that pin. Then on the 5200 side, you just tap off that pin along the traces somewhere and route that back to the same RCA or TRRS jack..etc.. No switching needed. And provided the UAV can fit inside the VCS adapter somewhere, no cuts or case modifications are needed. Do the same with audio. I believe the audio from the VCS adapter is also routed through a cartridge port pin yes? If so, just tap off that in the same manner and run that to the RCAs. 

Oh, OK, I see what you're saying.  Yep, that could work, but with the caveats below:

On 12/15/2022 at 4:41 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

A switch wouldn't really be needed since the 5200 is essentially mostly dead with a VCS adapter plugged in and working thereby only one device at a time is going to be sending anything useful anyway.

Which is true.  However:

On 12/15/2022 at 4:41 PM, -^CrossBow^- said:

Then again, I don't know how much room if any there is inside the VCS adapter as I've never owned one much less taken one apart.

There's virtually no extra room inside of them: the inside of a Jr. looks positively cavernous by comparison.  The previous sentence is completely wrong; see here for why.  However, it would be preferable to run a secondary board inside the 5200 to handle switching the composite and audio sources.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

4 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

There's virtually no extra room inside of them: the inside of a Jr. looks positively cavernous by comparison.  This is why it would be preferable to run a secondary board inside the 5200 to handle switching the composite and audio sources.

To do that, you would have to route all of the signals from the TIA inside the adapter back into the 5200 though? Unless there is a way to somehow amp and make usable the composite signal from the adapter and route it through the UAV already on the 5200 or enough that the UAV is able to take it and make it usable?

[+x=usr(1536)]

1 minute ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

To do that, you would have to route all of the signals from the TIA inside the adapter back into the 5200 though?

Nope.  The adapter only outputs composite on pin 24 of the cartridge port, so that can be tapped from inside the 5200.  Ditto audio on pin 30.

1 minute ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Unless there is a way to somehow amp and make usable the composite signal from the adapter and route it through the UAV already on the 5200 or enough that the UAV is able to take it and make it usable?

I have a suspicion that the signal from the adapter is already suitably-amplified, given that it skips almost the entire video generation section in the 5200 and is just shot more or less directly into the RF modulator.  What I don't know is if the RF modulator is providing any amplification or not, but those are a couple of the items I need to look into.

[+Mitch]

I am guessing a slightly tweaked version of the 7800 audio circuit would work for this. TIA plus Pokey is what is being combined in both. Some tweaking may be needed depending on the signal levels being outputed.

 

Mitch

[+-^CrossBow^-]

@x=usr(1536) I know the adapter only outputs composite. I'm really doing a bad job here of trying to explain things I see...

 

Sigh... okay. What I was trying to say is that if you wanted a usable composite and even s-video from the adapter, you would need to route the signals out of the adapter in some way into either the same or more likely, different UAV that you would have room for inside the 5200 but specifically setup for 2600 signal use and then use that.

 

But, if the composite is already video out quality to begin with, then it might just need a simple amp or something to make it more usable and just route it straight to your composite video output to the TV at that point.

 

@Mitch the UAV doesn't have anything on it for audio. So the audio is always pulled from and handled separate from the UAV. In this case, it would just be a matter of routing the audio from the adapter off the pin and back to the audio outputs being used. Might need a resistor or cap inline possibly, but it is likely usable as is in this regard.

 

However, I will be curious to see what comes up for this from an academic level.

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

39 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

What I was trying to say is that if you wanted a usable composite and even s-video from the adapter, you would need to route the signals out of the adapter in some way into either the same or more likely, different UAV that you would have room for inside the 5200 but specifically setup for 2600 signal use and then use that.

OK, I think I've got it this time: you're referring to also bringing out the individual chroma and luma signals from the TIA in the adapter so that they are accessible in the 5200.

 

That would be an interesting exercise.  Pins 11 & 28 on the cartridge port are unused, so one of them could conceivably carry the TIA colour signal.  That leaves only one pin for luma, though.  If the luma and sync signals could be combined before they exit the adapter, that would allow for S-Video out in addition to composite.

 

At that point, TIA colour can either be routed to the TCol pad on the 5200's UAV, or tied directly to the S-Video chroma output on the cable.  Luma would have to be directly tied to the cable's luma output; I'm not aware of a way to just pass it pre-combined through the UAV.

39 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

But, if the composite is already video out quality to begin with, then it might just need a simple amp or something to make it more usable and just route it straight to your composite video output to the TV at that point.

Also a possibility, and the thought of adding a small amp onto the composite switcher board for this scenario had crossed my mind.

 

Getting the chroma / luma signals from the unused pins on the cartridge port has some wheels turning in my brain.  That would be something best looked at after figuring out what the state of play is with the existing composite signal, but there could be some possibilities there.

[+Mitch]

2 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

@Mitch the UAV doesn't have anything on it for audio. So the audio is always pulled from and handled separate from the UAV. In this case, it would just be a matter of routing the audio from the adapter off the pin and back to the audio outputs being used. Might need a resistor or cap inline possibly, but it is likely usable as is in this regard.

 

I guess I wasn't clear, when I was referring to doing the audio 7800 style, I meant using the two resistors into a filter cap out to the RCA jack. But possibly modifying the resistor values to allow for differences in audio signal strength. Nothing to do with the UAV in that section. But it sounds like we are pretty much on the same page anyway.

 

Mitch

[+x=usr(1536)]

On 12/15/2022 at 4:22 PM, x=usr(1536) said:

Given that the CX-55 is basically a 2600 inside, however, you could potentially install a UAV in it and output its signals like any other 2600 - but there's less usable space in one than in even a 2600 Jr., so anyone who can figure that one out without major surgery is someone I want to talk to

On 12/15/2022 at 4:50 PM, x=usr(1536) said:

There's virtually no extra room inside of them: the inside of a Jr. looks positively cavernous by comparison.

Both of these statements are completely wrong.  I have no idea what I was thinking when I wrote them, but something in the back of my mind nagged at me enough to disassemble the CX-55 again and recheck dimensions.

 

Yes, a UAV will fit just fine in a CX-55.  It should be plugged into the 4050's socket (which, at least on mine, is there from the factory), then have the 4050 piggybacked onto the UAV.  Trying to do it the other way around (UAV on top of the 4050) will cause things to start getting really tight, and that's where the dimensional issues come in.

 

Placing the audio and video jacks will be an interesting exercise, and one I'm leaving to the reader   The RF shield will definitely need to be notched or removed depending on whether or not it's being retained in order to run cabling, and only the top half of the casing is tall enough to accommodate RCA / S-Video jacks along the top or bottom edges.  The sides are out due to switch and joystick port placement, and there are only a few millimetres between the underside of the PCB and the rear half of the casing.  Usable space is very limited as a result, and a dangling-cable approach with the connectors on the end of it may be the best bet.

 

The more I think about it, the more it seems as though I somehow confused 'not much if any space inside the case for outputs' with 'the UAV won't fit'.  My bad!

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Could do what I did on an earlier 5200 UAV setup I did. I basically removed the 4050, installed a socket in its place. I clipped the legs of the 4050 IC shorter and then soldered the 4050 directly ontop of the interconnect pins on the top of the UAV. This gave me the most low profile option while still allowing it to be undone easily in the future if needed. It also requires that you use clipped leads to jumper the center points of the UAV for 5200 configuration so there is room for the 4050 to sit low enough. I've  even installed the jumper leads on the bottom side of the UAV before installing the interconnect pins to give me as low a profile on top as possible for this.