Is it worth getting into the 5200 if you already have a good A8 collection?

[+GoldenWheels]

26 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

To be fair, I've rebuilt my share of CX-40 controllers with damaged fire buttons, broken rings, broken shafts, dead cables, non-working dome switches, etc.  Any controller is capable of breaking at some point, but I disagree with the assertion that the 5200's controller design was inherently going to lead to it being broken.  On a long enough timeline, they all fail.

Which is a reasonable opinion to hold, but it doesn't really matter - I've always found the CX-40 to be less than comfortable, and not as positive in communicating what it's doing back to me as I'd like.  Doesn't prove anything other than that neither one of us cares for a particular controller.

One timeline is just a lot faster than the other. A LOT faster. And one worked better to begin with. And is simpler to fix overall. And cheaper. To either replace OR fix.

 

The comfortable bit in my post was of course followed with the inevitable "IMO"...everybody has their preferences! But in an argument of pro and cons of A8 vs 5200, it has to be discussed. I would note that the vertical format/number pad controller (not even being 5200 specific here) was clearly a dead end so far as controller evolution. I think there is a good reason for that.

 

Also want to point out....all comments are made in the vein of the threadtopic. I do think a 5200 is worth owning, IF you don't already have a good A8 collection. If you DO have a good A8 collection....I think the 5200 very redundant and not worth the outlay or trouble.

[Turbo-Torch]

16 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

On a long enough timeline, they all fail.

Yeah, but that timeline for most consoles is in years.  The 5200 controllers can be measured in weeks.

Even if you don't use them, 5200 controllers will go bad like a gallon of milk.

The composition of those carbon dots had to be one of the biggest design flaws in video game history.

[phuzaxeman]

2 hours ago, GoldenWheels said:

But...you had to rebuild it in the first place, with upgraded parts, because it was basically designed to be broken. It's also not a comfortable controller to use (IMO of course, but then I don't like any of the vertical format controllers like 5200, 7800, Coleco, Inty).

 

Whereas I would bet we all have a lifetime's worth of controllers that would work on an 8 bit. And in my experience....they are tank like in durability, and simple as pie to do ANYTHING with. And if you don't have one, a working one is like 8 bucks.

 

I can't argue with feeling that the very small amount of analog games make it worth it, that's personal in how you feel about those games.

The 5200 controllers were the most comfortable controls in that era for me.

 

I'm not denying the reliability of the controls but they were good controls and advanced for it's time. The set the foundation for the PS controls.

 

I'm an avid 8bit fan but the experience on the 5200 is different. For example, playing analog controls on Star Wars in 83 was pretty amazing.

 

 

[+GoldenWheels]

1 hour ago, phuzaxeman said:

 

 

I'm not denying the reliability of the controls but they were good controls and advanced for it's time. The set the foundation for the PS controls

 

 

PS controls? As in PlayStation, or something else?

[phuzaxeman]

9 minutes ago, GoldenWheels said:

PS controls? As in PlayStation, or something else?

According to Best Electric, most of the PS2, Nintendo, Sega and Most PC Joysticks use the same type of internal designs pioneered by Atari Engineering on the CX52 Joysticks.

 

Flexible Circuits, Silicone pads with Carbon Dot contacts and Analog Potentiometers (Pots) for X Y Movement (PC Joysticks) are now industry standard type of construction today.

 

The 5200 had also a dedicated start, pause, and reset button. That was a big deal in 82.

 

 

[+GoldenWheels]

That may be true that they use similar internals, but I wonder if any of it had anything to do with the 5200 controller itself being a good design (that is to say...was there actual inspiration gleamed from it? Or did some parts just become...standard?).

 

Analog disappeared quickly from most major home consoles for years. Not even the first PS controllers had analog. So it's kind of a big gap there for me to assume any credit to the 5200, and of course, even if you give them credit for the ideas of analog sticks, or flex circuit, and or button pads...they did them all so poorly. Those internal designs advancements were and are exactly why the controllers don't work well. I do like the function buttons, they are forward looking, but, of course, they fail too, just like the side buttons. And they didn't exactly become a standard in the 5200s lifetime or even close.

 

I don't mean to keep kicking a man (the controller, not any of the very nice posters here) when he is down, I know you guys know all the issues and I am not mentioning anything new. But people keep bringing up points about how cool analog was back then, or that control buttons were a big deal in 82, or that THEY like the form factor. But the thread isn't about if they 5200 controllers were advanced, or if you like them. It's just 5200 vs A8 and (JMO of COURSE!) the controller issues (reliability and cost, nor form factor) alone make the A8 the easy choice. This is no offense to Ataris of any stripe but I'd say go invest in something really, truly DIFFERENT...maybe an Intellivision (don't even get me started on those controllers) or a Coleco (ditto) or a C64.

 

OTOH, if you are a tinkerer...and I don't mean this meanly....go for it as you will have plenty to do. I got into 5200 almost last of all the Ataris as it WAS a challenge. I am likely not as good as you boys but I can rebuild a 5200 controller now pretty ok.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

55 minutes ago, GoldenWheels said:

OTOH, if you are a tinkerer...and I don't mean this meanly....go for it as you will have plenty to do. I got into 5200 almost last of all the Ataris as it WAS a challenge.

Agreed.  Historically (and currently) I'm an A8 guy, but with an appreciation for the consoles as well.  To my mind, the 5200 is interesting as an offshoot of the A8 range: close enough to be clearly-related, but different enough to be its own beast.

 

One thing I will admit about the 5200's controllers is that they've always struck me as being an overdesigned-but-underengineered response to the Intellivision's controllers.  Granted, they also ended up targetting the ColecoVision's controllers as well, but given that the 5200 and CV hit the market about 3 months apart, this was more likely coincidence than a deliberate design decision.

[BIGHMW]

As a 5200 owner since 1983, one thing I can definitely say is that the CX52 was probable THE MOST COMFORTABLE controller I have ever used on any gaming console over these past 40 years, in fact, the ergonomic design and form factor and how the controller almost wrapped around your hand inspired Atari to replicate that same design in the CX24 ProLine/"PainLine" joystick for their then-soon-to-be-released successor console, the 7800. Those two are still a main staple in my gaming control lineup on the 5200, along with the legendary CX53 Trak-Ball.

 

Back when @Albert and the good folks here at AtariAge teamed up with Pixels Past 20 years ago to produce three different versions of their (sadly) no longer available "Redemption 5200" series of controller interfaces, allowing 2600/Sega, 7800, and PC controllers to work with the CX52's keypad on a 5200, I JUST HAD TO order both the 2600/Sega and 7800 versions. I still have one of the 7800 versions left and unless I am playing a game in which requires me to have instant access to the functions on my keypad (like Defender or Star Raiders for instance) or the critical movement that only a precision analog control can give me (like on Tempest), I mostly go with the CX24 while utilizing the CX52's keypad, and, yes both my 2 CX52s and 2 CX24s are Best-modded controllers. I even went out of my way to replace the carbon keypads on my vintage CX53 Trak-Ball I've had since 1983 with Best gold keypads (and the start/pause/reset cluster too) on it too, she has never played any better!!! A great tip, if you own a CX53, buy the gold keypad/start-pause-reset button setup to make sure that when you need it that control will work, right then and right there.

 

I DO WISH that @Albert and AA can get back to producing those 3 Redemption 5200 units now that you don't have to rely exclusively on recycled 5200 cartridge shells and there is also an abundance of DB15 Neo-Geo-style cords with molded plugs available to make them even cheaper. Plus with the availability of 3-D printers (like Retro Game Boyz uses to make cases for their products) it makes it more of an "in-house" process rather then have to wait to get them custom-made from China.

[CommodoreDecker]

On 12/16/2022 at 1:17 PM, T.A.P. said:

I've been thinking of playing around with the 5200. At this point it is the only Atari console that I've never really bothered with, since the whole thing about the controllers always kept me away.

 

But, I grew up playing with A8 stuff (which I hear is basically the same, hardwarewise) and I still have a nice assortment of that. 

 

Is it worth getting into 5200? Or is it just redundant for someone like me?

 

 

 

Yup!  Compare Centipede on both systems.  The 5200 cremates A8 with its much smoother performance.  Millipede was in development for the 5200, but what's ported over isn't as smooth.

 

Qix performs much faster on the 5200 and is playable. (A8  is slooooooow.)

 

Space Invaders has better looking critters, and shields...

 

Didn't Pitfall 2 have a hidden level that the A8 version lacked? 

 

Pengo uses 2 sound channels for the music, but A8 uses only one...

 

A great resource discussing  the differences between A8 and A5200 is this --> http://www.atariprotos.com/other/gamediff/gamediff.htm  

 

Otherwise, most games have negligible differences.

 

Just get a gold flexcircuit from Best and maybe a Competition Pro stick or modern equivalent  that has both analog and digital control pads for the  games requiring tight turns, and voila...

 

 

[+Stephen]

14 minutes ago, CommodoreDecker said:

 

Yup!  Compare Centipede on both systems.  The 5200 cremates A8 with its much smoother performance.  Millipede was in development for the 5200, but what's ported over isn't as smooth.

 

Qix performs much faster on the 5200 and is playable. (A8  is slooooooow.)

 

Space Invaders has better looking critters, and shields...

 

Didn't Pitfall 2 have a hidden level that the A8 version lacked? 

 

Pengo uses 2 sound channels for the music, but A8 uses only one...

 

A great resource discussing  the differences between A8 and A5200 is this --> http://www.atariprotos.com/other/gamediff/gamediff.htm  

 

Otherwise, most games have negligible differences.

 

Just get a gold flexcircuit from Best and maybe a Competition Pro stick or modern equivalent  that has both analog and digital control pads for the  games requiring tight turns, and voila...

 

 

BUT - every game you mention is available on the A8.  Pitfall 2 certainly had the bonus level.  I don't believe any of those above games made use of analog control either.  Shame the A8 never got a good analog joystick, because it obviously had the ability to use such controllers.

[zzip]

15 hours ago, CommodoreDecker said:

Yup!  Compare Centipede on both systems.  The 5200 cremates A8 with its much smoother performance.  Millipede was in development for the 5200, but what's ported over isn't as smooth.

 

Qix performs much faster on the 5200 and is playable. (A8  is slooooooow.)

 

Space Invaders has better looking critters, and shields...

 

Didn't Pitfall 2 have a hidden level that the A8 version lacked? 

 

Pengo uses 2 sound channels for the music, but A8 uses only one...

Every 5200 game has been ported to A8.   These days the choice of system pretty much comes down to what controller you prefer to use

[BIGHMW]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Every 5200 game has been ported to A8.   These days the choice of system pretty much comes down to what controller you prefer to use

Yeah but try playing Defender on an A8 and have to put down the joystick while hunting around for the right button on the keyboard to either utilize the smart bombs or hyperspace at a critical time where as with the CX52 controllers you pretty much have almost instant access as the keypad (hyperspace) and second fire buttons (smart bombs) are right there in your hand as is the joystick. Could be the game-breaker as far as your score and/or amount of lives are concerned.

 

Same thing with Star Raiders, you almost NEED TO have everything within reach, and since the vast array of controls on the 5200 are right there on the keypad as opposed to on the A8 (yet again) having to put down the joystick to reach out to and fumble around with the keyboard hoping to hit the right key at a critical moment.

 

5200 ports > A8 ports ANYTIME!!! ...and as a former owner of an XEGS and having played both versions of most games I prefer to play them on a 5200 despite the fact that we know that not every A8 game can be ported over although I wish most of them would be converted sometime in the short future, games just simply (for me at least, your opinion may vary) play better on Big Sexy, that's why I bother everybody hoping that one day they'll convert certain A8 games to the 5200, games like Planetary Defense and Crack-Up! for instance, they almost scream for a Trak-Ball to be utilized with them.

 

Plus, only we 5200 owners get Keithen Hayenga's masterpiece, TEMPEST!!!

 

Enough said.

[Keatah]

 

Not so fast..!

1 hour ago, BIGHMW said:

Yeah but try playing Defender on an A8 and have to put down the joystick while hunting around for the right button on the keyboard to either utilize the smart bombs or hyperspace at a critical time where as with the CX52 controllers you pretty much have almost instant access as the keypad (hyperspace) and second fire buttons (smart bombs) are right there in your hand as is the joystick. Could be the game-breaker as far as your score and/or amount of lives are concerned.

I had no problem jamming the spacebar or any of the 26 alpha-keys for smartbombs & hyperspace. I even preferred it that way compared against the sloppy slushbox buttons on the 5200. When one plays Defender you almost kidda know when you're gonna need those so you're ready. In any case it sure beats the sloppy arcade controls. And now through emulation it's even better on a tactile scissors keyboard.

 

1 hour ago, BIGHMW said:

Same thing with Star Raiders, you almost NEED TO have everything within reach, and since the vast array of controls on the 5200 are right there on the keypad as opposed to on the A8 (yet again) having to put down the joystick to reach out to and fumble around with the keyboard hoping to hit the right key at a critical moment.

Same situation as Defender. You know when you need the controls and are ready.

And the 400/800's keyboard allows for two players. Pilot and Co-Pilot. Or Pilot and WeponSystemsOfficer/Navigator.

 

1 hour ago, BIGHMW said:

5200 ports > A8 ports ANYTIME!!!

Depends on the game and how you want to play it.

 

1 hour ago, BIGHMW said:

...and as a former owner of an XEGS and having played both versions of most games I prefer to play them on a 5200 despite the fact that we know that not every A8 game can be ported over although I wish most of them would be converted sometime in the short future, games just simply (for me at least, your opinion may vary) play better on Big Sexy, that's why I bother everybody hoping that one day they'll convert certain A8 games to the 5200, games like Planetary Defense and Crack-Up! for instance, they almost scream for a Trak-Ball to be utilized with them.

Planetary Defense rocks with a mouse. Not all that different from the 1960's SAGE with lightgun. Point and fire! In PD a trakball is too laggy and sloppy for the higher levels.

[+Cafeman]

If it’s true that every 5200 ROM has been ported to the A8 line, then the only reason to enjoy 5200 would be the analog controls and the multiple button feature.   It may not be worth the expense if you don’t already have a 5200 and accessories. But if you do, I would think most of us see enough reason to keep hold of it and enjoy it.
 

5200 missile command is an experience unlike any other, it doesn’t matter if you use the exclusive 5200 trakball or the CX52 with its absolute positioning which is really cool to this day.  Can’t beat it.  
 

The excellent 5200 Centipede may be ported to the A8 line, but I doubt it controls as well with digital controls. It’s probably not a dealbreaker in the case of centipede.
 

Defender, Star Raiders, Realsports Baseball, and any other game which requires more than one button, are more enjoyable to play on your couch with a well functioning 5200 stick, as opposed to reaching onto a keyboard to find the appropriate key. 
 

The newer Tempest 5200 game likewise has analog control that very much gives the arcade Tempest feel with either trackball or CX52.  

I should copy this response for the next time this well worn subject arises. 
 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

32 minutes ago, Cafeman said:

If it’s true that every 5200 ROM has been ported to the A8 line

I realise that you aren't the first to mention this, but it still doesn't sound right to me.  Granted, I haven't checked - but it seems like there are probably a few still exclusive to the 5200.  It's also possible that A8-native versions exist for some titles, and as they're close enough or superior to the 5200 releases it's not worth porting over those 5200 games to the A8.

 

One thing I will say is that there is 5200 homebrew that hasn't (yet) made it to the A8.  Frankly, the system's retail catalogue isn't deeply-compelling for the most part, at least in this day and age.  The real gems are mostly in the homebrew arena.

[BIGHMW]

50 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

I realise that you aren't the first to mention this, but it still doesn't sound right to me.  Granted, I haven't checked - but it seems like there are probably a few still exclusive to the 5200.  It's also possible that A8-native versions exist for some titles, and as they're close enough or superior to the 5200 releases it's not worth porting over those 5200 games to the A8.

 

One thing I will say is that there is 5200 homebrew that hasn't (yet) made it to the A8.  Frankly, the system's retail catalogue isn't deeply-compelling for the most part, at least in this day and age.  The real gems are mostly in the homebrew arena.

Well, even though this list is nearly 2 years old here is that list of 5200 titles that are not available on the A8, some of them have since been ported over but others still have not.

 

 

[+Stephen]

1 hour ago, x=usr(1536) said:

I realise that you aren't the first to mention this, but it still doesn't sound right to me.  Granted, I haven't checked - but it seems like there are probably a few still exclusive to the 5200.  It's also possible that A8-native versions exist for some titles, and as they're close enough or superior to the 5200 releases it's not worth porting over those 5200 games to the A8.

 

One thing I will say is that there is 5200 homebrew that hasn't (yet) made it to the A8.  Frankly, the system's retail catalogue isn't deeply-compelling for the most part, at least in this day and age.  The real gems are mostly in the homebrew arena.

Please don't say that.  Because I have a feeling, a mysterious somebody will start threads asking for them to be ported.  I've got a bad feeling about this.

[+x=usr(1536)]

50 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Please don't say that.  Because I have a feeling, a mysterious somebody will start threads asking for them to be ported.  I've got a bad feeling about this.

If not here, then in some other thread.  Circle of life, man.  Circle of life.

[MrMaddog]

On 1/5/2023 at 12:43 PM, BIGHMW said:

Yeah but try playing Defender on an A8 and have to put down the joystick while hunting around for the right button on the keyboard to either utilize the smart bombs or hyperspace at a critical time where as with the CX52 controllers you pretty much have almost instant access as the keypad (hyperspace) and second fire buttons (smart bombs) are right there in your hand as is the joystick. Could be the game-breaker as far as your score and/or amount of lives are concerned.

 

 

Right, reeeaaaalllllllllll hard to find....

 

This reminds me being in a game tournment at PhillyClassic that had Defender on a XEGS.  I've been playing that game since childhood and yet everyone else kept asking, "Where's the Smart Bomb button at? This isn't like the 5200 version!"

[Keatah]

7 hours ago, MrMaddog said:

Right, reeeaaaalllllllllll hard to find....

It could potentially be hard if you got a Dvorak layout or Microsoft Ergonomic or if your hand wandered around. Might even take some thinking there!

 

In reality I typically played 400/800 Defender with a PointMaster. Either using both hands to bend the joystick, like a hinge, one hand holding the base the other holding the stick. Other times I'd put the base on the table right in front of the keyboard just because. And I could operate the stick with one hand and have the other free to either beat off or be ready for smartbomb or hyperspace.

 

None of this presented a problem and I always got the hi-score.

Edited January 7, 2023 by Keatah

[+Stephen]

4 hours ago, Keatah said:

Other times I'd put the base on the table right in front of the keyboard just because. And I could operate the stick with one hand and have the other free to either beat off or be ready for smartbomb or hyperspace.

So you played Defender, the Margolis edition?

[BIGHMW]

15 hours ago, Stephen said:

So you played Defender, the Margolis edition?

Oh dude, give it a rest would ya? I know I have a thing with Cindy but that comment was a little distasteful, my thing for her is strictly for business. If I wanted a woman, I'd go for someone else. .....and currently I don't date (either gay or straight) after being unceremoniously dumped in 2018 by my ex of 29 years (Alice Yantz) because her legal guardian father (Gene) tried to pull some bullshit claim that I "hit her" in order to get out paying her half of our bills/rent, but, i smartly had compiled photographic forensic evidence proving i didn't,  plus they knew that had nothing on me anyways about otherwise i would've been arrested so they knew they lied, i haven't dated anyone else since because I just don't trust anybody,  that and all of that "me too" bullshit.

Edited January 8, 2023 by BIGHMW

[+x=usr(1536)]

2 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

Oh dude, give it a rest would ya? I know I have a thing with Cindy but that comment was a little distasteful, my thing for her is strictly for business.

Women (and men, too, for that matter) generally don't appreciate being used to further someone else's career goals.  If you're wondering why she hasn't miraculously blessed you with that on-air contract with 102.7 KIIS FM in Los Angeles, that may have something to do with it.  Just a hunch, call me weird for thinking it, and maybe it's all just crazy talk on my behalf - but could it ever-so-slightly have just a single miniscule, diminutive, tiny iota of possibility to it?

 

That KIIS FM is also a top-40 / Pop format station and doesn't play metal may also play a part, but that's not even on the horizon because bothering someone you went to school with in the 1980s to get you airplay/time is *not* how that works.

2 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

If I wanted a woman, I'd go for someone else. .....and currently I don't date (either gay or straight) after being unceremoniously dumped in 2018 by my ex of 29 years (Alice Yantz) because her legal guardian father (Gene) tried to pull some bullshit claim that I "hit her" in order to get out paying her half of our bills/rent, but, i smartly had compiled photographic forensic evidence proving i didn't,  plus they knew that had nothing on me anyways about otherwise i would've been arrested so they knew they lied, i haven't dated anyone else since because I just don't trust anybody,  that and all of that "me too" bullshit.

Well, that certainly was 2¢ of opinion right there.

[+Stephen]

2 hours ago, BIGHMW said:

Oh dude, give it a rest would ya?

Funny - how many of us have asked you that when it comes to:
1 - Asking for ports

2 - Mentioning Cindy constantly

3 - Begging for money / bitching about paying off loans after just being given handouts

 

See - it does get old constantly hearing the same old shit doesn't it?

[+x=usr(1536)]

8 minutes ago, Stephen said:

Funny - how many of us have asked you that when it comes to:
1 - Asking for ports

2 - Mentioning Cindy constantly

3 - Begging for money / bitching about paying off loans after just being given handouts

4 - Which system is about to become the next financially-irresponsible decision

5 - Selling said financially-irresponsible decision to afford food / rent / meds / gas / payday loans

6 - Not ignoring advice being offered that would put an end to nos. 3 through 5 above