Jump to content
IGNORED

News article possible end of VCS


bfollett

Recommended Posts

20 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

With all of that said, I feel like I'm coming across incredibly negative in my analysis (maybe I should enumerate the things I LIKE about the hardware and platform in a separate post for balance). I'd certainly LOVE to hear some real, practical ways that Atari has a sustainable path with the VCS platform. I just struggle to think of any.

I'm mostly in agreement with you, but I think they might be able to creep along using a similar business model to the Evercade. That's also a super niche console with shoestring support. Of course, the gimmick there is carts. Here it's legit Atari properties. So long as they don't have expectations beyond the hardcore retro gamer market, I think they might be able to make a modest profit much like Evercade does. Given that it's linux underlying, it's not too hard to port stuff that's already on Android or developed via a dev system that exports to Debian (much like Orange Pixel is doing with their Android games).

 

It wont make anyone a billion dollars, but I suspect they can inch along releasing, say, 10-15 games a year (with two or three Atari owned ports) or so for another year or two.  Since the console is already out there, there's a bit of money to be made with games, and all you really have to do is compile your code for linux, making existing PC or Android ports potentially doable. I think we'll get another year for sure, two if we are lucky. 

 

Anyone expecting licensing deals or major support is daydreaming. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

4 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

1) Atari was not really back in the hardware business. They put a commodity PC into a fancy case and created yet another digital storefront

They have a custom board with heavilty integrated AMD components.   Similar to how the past two generations of Microsoft and Sony consoles were built.   I'm sure Xbox/PS4+5 could be used as PCs if they weren't locked down so heavily.   Yet no one says Sony and Microsoft aren't in the hardware business.   I think this is a nitpicky point.

 

4 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

In any case, with the VCS, power does matter. It was underpowered as a PC upon its release, and it only gets worse by the day. I get that you don't need considerable horsepower to run modest games, but the fact of the matter is as more and more games get released, that's more and more games that the VCS would be unlikely to run with its current capabilities.

It's weak on 3D,  but there's thousands of games on Steam it can handle with no trouble.  Even new games,  as long as it isn't an AAA-type game with demanding 3D performance it will be fine for some time to come.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, zzip said:

 

They have a custom board with heavilty integrated AMD components.   Similar to how the past two generations of Microsoft and Sony consoles were built.   I'm sure Xbox/PS4+5 could be used as PCs if they weren't locked down so heavily.   Yet no one says Sony and Microsoft aren't in the hardware business.   I think this is a nitpicky point.

 

It's weak on 3D,  but there's thousands of games on Steam it can handle with no trouble.  Even new games,  as long as it isn't an AAA-type game with demanding 3D performance it will be fine for some time to come.

I take issue with how custom the VCS actually is, but whether that's true or not, it's in no way equivalent to what Microsoft and Sony have done (as they should, with their billions to play with). And yes, you can use the Xbox Series S/X as a computer as well, though I'm not sure why you'd want to. 

 

My problem with the VCS is that just about any run-of-the-mill PC can run the same types of games the VCS can, and you can get other compact PCs that can also be used with a TV and require fewer workarounds to use them effectively as a computer. With no in-store exclusives or other incentives, I don't know why someone would buy a VCS-specific version of a game, especially since it's locked into the one piece of hardware.

 

2 hours ago, Lord Thag said:

It wont make anyone a billion dollars, but I suspect they can inch along releasing, say, 10-15 games a year (with two or three Atari owned ports) or so for another year or two.  Since the console is already out there, there's a bit of money to be made with games, and all you really have to do is compile your code for linux, making existing PC or Android ports potentially doable. I think we'll get another year for sure, two if we are lucky. 

I guess the disconnect I have is what you can play on the VCS that you can't on all of the other platforms (and the VCS doesn't even get them at the same time). They're not going to release any exclusives as far as I know, and certainly no developer, no matter how small, would be incentivized to do so with the user base.

I'd certainly be interested in sales numbers for specific games, but I suppose we'd also need to know how many VCS's are out in the wild. Is it 20,000? Fewer? (I've only seen a vague "10,000+") What percentage of those are interested in buying games from the VCS store? (i.e., I don't know how many $99 owners would bother) 5 - 10%? More? I guess the store can stay up indefinitely as long as it can bring in at least as much as it costs to maintain.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I know that some of the VCS/Atari die-hards are hanging their hats on/holding out hope for licensing deals, but I just don't see it. In terms of the software platform, no one needs another digital game download platform, particularly one as modest as the VCS's, unless perhaps it were free (meaning trivial to include along with other, bigger digital stores) and Atari would hope to make money from game sales (which I don't see how it would versus the other options out there). In terms of the hardware platform, while there are plenty of small-time compact PC manufacturers out there with hardware that Atari could "VCS certify," I don't see what the appeal would be for these manufacturers, particularly with there being an associated cost of some type for the licensing (be it flat rate or royalty). And I don't see how Atari would benefit from VCS certifying hardware without charging a fee, unless they again would hope to make it up with VCS digital store sales, which again, I just don't see. 

With all of that said, I feel like I'm coming across incredibly negative in my analysis (maybe I should enumerate the things I LIKE about the hardware and platform in a separate post for balance). I'd certainly LOVE to hear some real, practical ways that Atari has a sustainable path with the VCS platform. I just struggle to think of any.

Who is asking for licensing deals?   VCS fans have been mostly happy with the games that come,  which have been mostly quality games that would have gotten lost in the shuffle on Steam or the console stores.    I love Donut Dodo, but would have passed over it  in the Switch store, because it would just be yet another indie retro looking game with little hype around it there.

 

Yes VCS is a niche product.   We've known it would be since announcement.   Why do people give it crap for being niche that while extolling the virtues of other niche products.    First it was why buy a VCS when a cool product like Amico is coming?  Well look how that turned out.  Then it was "get a Playdate instead",  well that platform seems to have lost much of its enthusiasm as I knew it would.    "But but Evercade".   Well if Evercade works for you, great.   I don't want to deal with physical media.   "but but Steamdeck".   My eyes aren't as good as they used to be, and trying to read text on mobile screens is painful.   Pass,  but VCS benefits from the work Valve has done with proton to make Steamdeck work too.

 

There's a place for all of that, and there's a place for VCS too.   And it the end of the day if/when Atari stops supporting it, it's still useful because its open.    Some of these other niche products can't say that.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe the hardware licensing deal could go in a different direction from what we’re thinking? I remember when Razer bought out the OUYA assets. They offered a new version of the hardware in the form of the Razer Forge, which allows you to migrate your Ouya account and most of the software, but also the Google Play store. 
 

An inexpensive PC with Atari VCS hardware roots could be a halfway decent Chromebook if it had access to a bigger software ecosystem. 
 

Or it could just be puffery for the benefit of the investors/shareholders. The updates about production had a whiff of “please don’t leave us!” about them. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I take issue with how custom the VCS actually is

Everything is heavily integrated these days.   Much of the engineering work on PS5/Xbox is done by AMD.   Last I've hear the Raspberry Pi foundation was one guy working on hardware.   Obviously he didn't create everything inside it, they are integrating existing designs into a certain form factor.   The Atari VCS motherboard is full of etchings of Asteroids and other Atari easter eggs.   So obviously it's not just an off-the-shelf PC board shoved into a PC case, they had a hand in it even if most of the integration work was done by AMD.   

 

So if you claim Atari isn't in the hardware business, then a lot of companies aren't in the hardware business because so much is based on preexisting designs and/or farmed out to other companies. 

 

And to be honest, it's better this way.  I don't know why people want highly custom hardware in this day and age.   I remember what it was like to own an ST where Atari designed a lot of it.   Lots of hardware bugs that needed work arounds,  you needed to buy specific mice, specific disks, specific monitors etc.     

 

27 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

and you can get other compact PCs that can also be used with a TV and require fewer workarounds to use them effectively as a computer. With no in-store exclusives or other incentives,

Yeah and most of the mini-PCs I've seen are ugly as sin and don't fit in a living room very well.   There's no workarounds needed to use VCS as a computer, plug in a keyboard/mouse and liveUSB OS of your choice and you're good to go

 

30 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I don't know why someone would buy a VCS-specific version of a game, especially since it's locked into the one piece of hardware.

It's not though.   People have been able to get VCS games running under other versions of Linux.   You can't easily do that with a Switch or PS5

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Who is asking for licensing deals?   VCS fans have been mostly happy with the games that come,  which have been mostly quality games that would have gotten lost in the shuffle on Steam or the console stores.    I love Donut Dodo, but would have passed over it  in the Switch store, because it would just be yet another indie retro looking game with little hype around it there.

 

Yes VCS is a niche product.   We've known it would be since announcement.   Why do people give it crap for being niche that while extolling the virtues of other niche products.    First it was why buy a VCS when a cool product like Amico is coming?  Well look how that turned out.  Then it was "get a Playdate instead",  well that platform seems to have lost much of its enthusiasm as I knew it would.    "But but Evercade".   Well if Evercade works for you, great.   I don't want to deal with physical media.   "but but Steamdeck".   My eyes aren't as good as they used to be, and trying to read text on mobile screens is painful.   Pass,  but VCS benefits from the work Valve has done with proton to make Steamdeck work too.

 

There's a place for all of that, and there's a place for VCS too.   And it the end of the day if/when Atari stops supporting it, it's still useful because its open.    Some of these other niche products can't say that.

What I said was that the current rumors are since Atari has stopped manufacturing, etc., they're going to move to licensing out the VCS platform. I said that that's what VCS die-hards are clinging to as the hope for the platform now that Atari themselves can no longer keep the platform going. Again, this is based on current information and could easily change.

 

In terms of the VCS having value for you and some others, great. No one should ever question or undermine that. It's always been a discussion of are there enough of you out there to make the platform sustainable. The answer was always "no."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I don't know why someone would buy a VCS-specific version of a game, especially since it's locked into the one piece of hardware.

Yet it isn't.   I literally have taken Guntech 2.0 and copied it to my Linux Desktop and it runs fine.  You are essentially getting Linux native DRM free games with the VCS. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, zzip said:

Everything is heavily integrated these days.   Much of the engineering work on PS5/Xbox is done by AMD.   Last I've hear the Raspberry Pi foundation was one guy working on hardware.   Obviously he didn't create everything inside it, they are integrating existing designs into a certain form factor.   The Atari VCS motherboard is full of etchings of Asteroids and other Atari easter eggs.   So obviously it's not just an off-the-shelf PC board shoved into a PC case, they had a hand in it even if most of the integration work was done by AMD.   

 

So if you claim Atari isn't in the hardware business, then a lot of companies aren't in the hardware business because so much is based on preexisting designs and/or farmed out to other companies. 

 

And to be honest, it's better this way.  I don't know why people want highly custom hardware in this day and age.   I remember what it was like to own an ST where Atari designed a lot of it.   Lots of hardware bugs that needed work arounds,  you needed to buy specific mice, specific disks, specific monitors etc.     

 

Yeah and most of the mini-PCs I've seen are ugly as sin and don't fit in a living room very well.   There's no workarounds needed to use VCS as a computer, plug in a keyboard/mouse and liveUSB OS of your choice and you're good to go

 

It's not though.   People have been able to get VCS games running under other versions of Linux.   You can't easily do that with a Switch or PS5

Haha, damn. You said almost exactly what I said before I read what you said.  :😜

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It seems possible that the issuance of the financial report, and specifically the wording in it, may be related to a "friendly" but from what I've seen a few comments about not actually so friendly takeover by Wade Rosen. The actual "news" isn't really much news; we knew there hadn't been a production run since early 2021, so the loss of a manufacturing partner not actually doing anything is interesting, a bit indicative, but not the nuclear doom the editorial gamer blogs think it is. I bet if they do want another production run it'll be under new post-COVID terms at the very least, so kind of a nothingburger. Unless you are trying to drive down Atari's stock right as you make your big money move...

 

https://www-zonebourse-com.translate.goog/cours/action/ATARI-S-A-2168735/actualite/Atari-S-A-Document-AMF-CP-222C2741-42594174/?_x_tr_sl=auto&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en&_x_tr_pto=wapp

 

We already knew the VCS wasn't selling at $400, we also know the past month has seen a ton of new people visiting the VCS Discord with new post-Black-Friday-sale consoles. Seems like it's actually selling some this holiday season. A few thousand? Seems plausible. Maybe even a few thousand more?

 

The money news is the more interesting thing, tough times for Atari overall. Big drop in revenue.

 

Still, as a buyer, the VCS has had a fun and excellent 2022, and it seems likely 2023 will be anything but dead as well. Did I expect an actively supported console beyond two years? Not really, so it's all good, and loving the journey. Dunno when it'll die, but even then the tech will be cool for a while, and it doesn't seem to be likely dead in the first half of 2023 anyway. 

ATARI-HY-23-Financial-Report-VEN.pdf

Opening-of-the-friendly-tender-offer-for-Atari-shares.pdf

Edited by Mockduck
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Mockduck said:

Still, as a buyer, the VCS has had a fun and excellent 2022, and it seems likely 2023 will be anything but dead as well. Did I expect an actively supported console beyond two years? Not really, so it's all good, and loving the journey. Dunno when it'll die, but even then the tech will be cool for a while, and it doesn't seem to be likely dead in the first half of 2023 anyway. 

To put it in perspective,  VCS could end up with more officially released titles than Jaguar, Lynx, 7800 or 5200 had

 

I never expected much from the Atari store, I always thought I'd use it in PC mode more, but there have been some interesting game released.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think @Mockduck has a reasonable view on this — nobody ever thought it would blow up big, but for those who enjoyed it, good game. 

 

I feel like the company’s best stuff is way back in the past, so if they folded tomorrow we could still have those nice memories. 

 

How much longer can they be expected to flog the same stuff from 25, 35, and 40 years ago? They need another Rollercoaster Tycoon hit but it takes money to make money. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/21/2022 at 7:49 AM, Flojomojo said:

I've yet to see a compelling reason to add a VCS to my collection of hardware, let alone choose it over a stronger competitor. I can play Donut Dodo, Atari 50, and Tempest 4000 on my Nintendo Switch. 

Is there an LED Fuji logo on your Switch? Didn't think so! 

futurama-checkmate.gif

In all seriousness though, this is why I've never been interested in the thing, when I should have been one of it's #1 proponents. When the Switch doesn't have stuff like Elden Ring that I want to play, I just grab it on my PC but there are plenty of ways to get my indie gaming fix that I don't have to waste and extra $300-$400 for. Just got Jitsu Squad on the Switch...great beat 'em up game with a nice sense of humor.

 

On 12/21/2022 at 7:30 PM, zzip said:

To put it in perspective,  VCS could end up with more officially released titles than Jaguar, Lynx, 7800 or 5200 had

Honest question, how many of those are exclusives?

 

For everything that isn't, that is great that the VCS did get support and will get software support through next year, but I don't think it's an entirely fair comparison when previous the 5200/7800/Lynx/Jaguar didn't have the type of gaming infrastructure that exists today. Plus when it comes to these "officially released" VCS titles they aren't really ports...they're just the PC versions that they're paying Atari to get on the store. I'm sure you know a port back-in-the-day was a lot more work than just remapping your button layouts and picking a different platform to export to in Unity. 

 

On another note, from the article that Stephen shared:

"All told, Atari made a net loss of €5.4m, up from the €3.5m loss it made during the same period last year."

 

Sounds not too dissimilar from other companies who also failed because their hardware was a lead weight strapped to their feet. It's not a great time to be in tech - Micron just announced layoffs due to low demand+high costs; If you've been paying attention, tech companies in particular have already laid off thousands of people since this summer began. Big companies will survive but small ones like Atari could end up closing their doors if they aren't careful about it. Sorry to the VCS guys who don't have me on ignore, but hardware-wise, it's done. They would be stupid to keep sinking money into fabricating a product that's just collecting dust in a warehouse somewhere. Anecdotally, I've only seen a VCS on a shelf once, at a Best Buy...last year. Zero sighting of it all this year. I wouldn't know the thing exists if I never visited Atari Age.  

 

"Games revenue, however, was up 10 percent off the back of RollerCoaster Tycoon and new games in the Recharged series. "

 

Had Atari focused on some new RCT plus the Reloaded games as VCS exclusives, it could have made the console a little more enticing for certain fans, but from a business perspective, it makes more sense to put it on a platform people actually own like the Switch. Therein lies the dilemma in hardware for a tiny company but saying so makes one a hater. ;) 

 

Atari is at least wise to call it quits here before the whole niche cashgrabendeavor sinks what's left of the company. Although reading that because they made a little extra change off of  NFTs so they're going to focus more on that....

 

wilson-croft-christopher-mcdonald.gif

Good luck, I guess. 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 12/21/2022 at 11:35 AM, Bill Loguidice said:

I take issue with how custom the VCS actually is, but whether that's true or not, it's in no way equivalent to what Microsoft and Sony have done (as they should, with their billions to play with). And yes, you can use the Xbox Series S/X as a computer as well, though I'm not sure why you'd want to. 

It is literally exactly as custom as the PS5/Xbox.  They all go to AMD and say 'hey, we'd like a design, this is what we'd like it to do.'  It's a custom PCB in a custom case.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Heh, now if Valve decided to step in and buy them... think about it, Steam Deck is almost a perfect companion device to the VCS, if you put SteamOS onto it.  Hell, I should benchmark some stuff, and see how well the VCS compares to it, performance wise.  (remember the Steam Deck only pushes 1280x800, and most stuff on the VCS runs fine at lower resolutions as well). 

 

My Switch sits there and collects dust, I've actually probably bought about the same amount of games for the VCS, which I play more often. 

 

Hopefully Atari can figure out their place in the world, and I'm hoping Orange Pixel releases the rest of their library for the VCS.  I mean most, if not all of their games already have Linux versions.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, THX-1138 said:

I think they are trying to say Atari went from expecting to sell a million units, to only selling 10,000 instead.

 

Based on the inaccuracies and overall hostile bias in the article, I wouldn't read too much into it.

 

It is weird, I feel there is a lot of hate for Atari, some of it is founded, but some of it seems like it's from people that feel betrayed by the brand (with various sites saying the death of Atari happened in 1984 when the they were sold off in chunks, I would argue if you're going to use that reasoning, it died when a bunch of engineers left and Nolan sold to Warner).  But some, I swear hate them because it's trendy to do.  Or they were huge Nintendo fans or Sega fans and weren't even alive when Atari was gaming. 

 

You can almost tell a person's age when they say 'play Nintendo' and talk about video gaming in general, vs 'Play Atari' is the generic term. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Stephen said:

Here's another article not sounding at all positive, straight outta France.

Have you noticed it's written in English, or did you believe you magically started to understand French? 😉

 

1 hour ago, leech said:

My Switch sits there and collects dust, I've actually probably bought about the same amount of games for the VCS, which I play more often.

Really? Then everybody must be like you I guess. I'm gonna resell my Switch right now to buy a VCS! 🤯

  • Haha 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think bottom line is Atari simply didn't have the vision or revenue to support a modern console, I enjoyed the new games Atari has come out with and BPM Boy almost made me buy the system(still might with it on sale). The hardware itself is fine imo. VCS isn't weaker that a contemporary system like Switch, but Switch has the budget to develop big games to show the system off, while Atari can't afford that. It also can't afford to market the system, no one I know IRL even knew the system existed. One of the big things that's kept me from buying the system is lack of physical media, one reason I've stuck with Switch.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, leech said:

It is weird, I feel there is a lot of hate for Atari, some of it is founded, but some of it seems like it's from people that feel betrayed by the brand (with various sites saying the death of Atari happened in 1984 when the they were sold off in chunks, I would argue if you're going to use that reasoning, it died when a bunch of engineers left and Nolan sold to Warner).  But some, I swear hate them because it's trendy to do.  Or they were huge Nintendo fans or Sega fans and weren't even alive when Atari was gaming. 

 

You can almost tell a person's age when they say 'play Nintendo' and talk about video gaming in general, vs 'Play Atari' is the generic term. 

I agree that there is a lot of hate out there, but name any area that has 'fans' and you will find a lot of toxic hate these days.  I can get right into that as a subject in it's own right and why it happens.  But I will say I've been listening to people moaning about Atari since I was a kid when my dad had a VCS/2600 and I had a 400.  My response back then to haters is the same as it is right now - a glorious upturned middle finger accompanied by an expletive.

 

I would use the same response to people who go on about what the 'real' Atari is, as you say, if someone is gonna play that stupid game then yes, Atari was already dead before the original VCS/2600 came out. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

All I am seeing across these reports is that Rosen is still living with the baggage from Chesnais et al, and that the company's best prospect for a revival of its brand is through software and games- a point I don't think anyone on this forum would disagree with. The blockchain/hotel/NFT nonsense was always a distraction from the company doing one thing and doing it well, and a full return to roots is long overdue. I don't think Atari is going to bury thousands of VCSes in the desert, so these grand assessments of Atari missing big with the VCS are comical to me. It was always a modestly marketed and produced console for a focused set of backers and fans. That's it. If it went bigger they'd have loved it, but that's not where they are (nor honestly where hardware is). 

 

This is fairly obviously a shareholder leak to tank stock and rally a takeover/curry investment (and sell remaining VCS stock to fill 2022 bottom lines, if people see this as their last chance to own one). Happens all the time. I don't blame Rosen for this, as he can genuinely look to the profit line for games and see where Atari is best positioned to succeed. The brand's best plan has always been this: focus on games and rebuild your franchises and marketing, specifically focusing on quality games and growing your appeal (including among indie and homebrew developers). Then and ONLY then, in a couple of years explore whether there is both appetite and partnerships to launch a possible piece of hardware to amplify and harness said games. If Rosen is the person to implement that kind of focused approach, all the better. But that IMO is the way forward here. 

Edited by Atarick
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...