News article possible end of VCS

[T.A.P.]

I'm personally tired of the whole 'this doesn't need to exist' argument. You can use that strawman excuse to get rid of anything.

[MrMaddog]

On 12/28/2022 at 12:08 AM, T.A.P. said:

I've never seen the guy before, but he just seems like a smug condescending jerk.

 

Just like all the other retrogaming YouTube critics...

 

15 minutes ago, T.A.P. said:

I'm personally tired of the whole 'this doesn't need to exist' argument. You can use that strawman excuse to get rid of anything.

 

Retrogaming YouTube critics don't need to exist either...

[joeatari1]

Anyone can be an armchair quarterback.  It takes real guts to actually buy the item to be reviewed and be fair and balanced about it.

[RollOut]

3 hours ago, MrMaddog said:

Retrogaming YouTube critics don't need to exist either...

Quote of the day

[roots.genoa]

I agree that argument is moot (we never need something designed for leisure anyway) and I don't watch a lot of YouTubers as well but I think you're missing the point Flojomojo was trying to make.

 

RTU is just worried that most retro system ventures end in a fiasco, and he thinks "we" (the retrogamers) are also to blame for it because we're the ones that back them up, usually blinded by sheer nostalgia. I think we can all agree that creating a video game system is hard (even Atari acknowledged it with the "it's called hardware because it's hard" phrase), but software for it may be even harder actually. When you think about it, the few retro systems that have been successful recently (Pocket, Evercade) didn't require new software (or at least not a lot of it)...

 

To quote one of AA's finest philosophers, "it's a miracle" the Atari VCS was even released given how the whole thing happened (the two main engineers not being paid for starters)... If you're happy with it, that's fine but you should still lower your expectations regarding the future of the system imho. And I really hope the next time there's a crowdfunding for a retro system, you remember that it didn't go very smoothly with the VCS, that you had to wait months (not weeks) to get any update. 😔

[Cyprian]

On 12/26/2022 at 7:52 PM, leech said:

Ha, you should update the Wikipedia article for Jay Miner, as it simply states he was the lead engineer for the TIA, making it sound like it was at least designed partially by him.

read the Wiki first: "Jay Miner focused on making an ASIC for the display adapter. Early on, the ASIC display adapter was named the Television Interface Adapter (TIA)."  - making asic doesn't mean he designed TIA chip, because someone else did it before: "Using a breadboard prototype for the display adapter atop a 6502 testbed system, Milner was able to demonstrate the ability to program a simple version of their Tank game".

 

Below you can find Atari 400/800 designers list:

Steven T. Mayer     - early system design, overall plan
Douglas G. Neubauer - POKEY logic design
George McLeod       - CTIA/GTIA logic design
Ronald E. Milner    - early system design
Francois Michel     - ANTIC design
Mark Shieu          - POKEY chip design
Steve Stone         - POKEY layout design
Steve Smith         - Technician for ANTIC and GTIA
Delwin Pearson      - Technician for POKEY
Kevin McKinsey      - 400/800 case design

Joseph C. Decuir    - ANTIC logic desgin, early system design, overall plan
Jay G. Miner        - System architect, VLSI manager, overall plan
 

Regarding updating the Wikipedia, Miner never was the real Atari, it was just Atari's employee who joined the real Atari for a moment. But feel free and update the Wikipedia with your version of history:

On 12/23/2022 at 5:13 PM, leech said:

I would say 'the real Atari' became Commodore, and died in 1994

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Cyprian

[Bill Loguidice]

Here's the Atari VCS speakerhat bundle for $189.99: https://atari.com/collections/50-50-50

[leech]

3 hours ago, Cyprian said:

read the Wiki first: "Jay Miner focused on making an ASIC for the display adapter. Early on, the ASIC display adapter was named the Television Interface Adapter (TIA)."  - making asic doesn't mean he designed TIA chip, because someone else did it before: "Using a breadboard prototype for the display adapter atop a 6502 testbed system, Milner was able to demonstrate the ability to program a simple version of their Tank game".

 

Below you can find Atari 400/800 designers list:

Steven T. Mayer     - early system design, overall plan
Douglas G. Neubauer - POKEY logic design
George McLeod       - CTIA/GTIA logic design
Ronald E. Milner    - early system design
Francois Michel     - ANTIC design
Mark Shieu          - POKEY chip design
Steve Stone         - POKEY layout design
Steve Smith         - Technician for ANTIC and GTIA
Delwin Pearson      - Technician for POKEY
Kevin McKinsey      - 400/800 case design

Joseph C. Decuir    - ANTIC logic desgin, early system design, overall plan
Jay G. Miner        - System architect, VLSI manager, overall plan
 

Regarding updating the Wikipedia, Miner never was the real Atari, it was just Atari's employee who joined the real Atari for a moment. But feel free and update the Wikipedia with your version of history:

 

Well, how many of those engineers stuck with Atari after Warner bought them?  Also generally individual chip designers don't equal the whole architecture, which is why Jay Miner has always been considered 'The Dude.'

[leech]

30 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Here's the Atari VCS speakerhat bundle for $189.99: https://atari.com/collections/50-50-50

Ha, wonder if mine is ever going to show up...

[Bill Loguidice]

3 minutes ago, leech said:

Ha, wonder if mine is ever going to show up...

I put in an order for the heck of it. I'll figure out something to do with it to get my relative money's worth.

[joeatari1]

32 minutes ago, leech said:

Ha, wonder if mine is ever going to show up...

Leech, if you're having trouble getting your order I would ping Ashlee on the VCS Discord.  She seems to be the one to get things moving.

[MegaManFan]

18 hours ago, joeatari1 said:

Anyone can be an armchair quarterback.  It takes real guts to actually buy the item to be reviewed and be fair and balanced about it.

Then you should enjoy my video tonight.

[leech]

8 hours ago, joeatari1 said:

Leech, if you're having trouble getting your order I would ping Ashlee on the VCS Discord.  She seems to be the one to get things moving.

Thanks, I did get an email into them, after pinging Ashlee.

[Cyprian]

20 hours ago, leech said:

Well, how many of those engineers stuck with Atari after Warner bought them?  Also generally individual chip designers don't equal the whole architecture, which is why Jay Miner has always been considered 'The Dude.'

ok I see it now, you are more Miner fan than Atari fan, and this is ok with me.

I'm focused on Atari (and hardware released by them), regardless of who run it - Bushnell (the Boss), Warner, Tramiel or Infogrames. Non-Atari projects of former Atari engineers (like the Nuon, Sharp PC-3000, Mindset, Commodore Amiga and tons other projects) are interesting but out of my scope. So I find this discussion pointless.

Anyway this is a thread about Atari VCS ( yep, Atari hardware ) lets keep it clean.

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Cyprian

[oky2000]

Personally, if it doesn't have a TIA chip then it isn't a 2600/VCS in my book, YMMV.

 

I wonder how units sold compare with something like theC64 fullsize, which I don't like but at least I have constructive criticism about why

[Bill Loguidice]

34 minutes ago, oky2000 said:

Personally, if it doesn't have a TIA chip then it isn't a 2600/VCS in my book, YMMV.

 

I wonder how units sold compare with something like theC64 fullsize, which I don't like but at least I have constructive criticism about why

I would suspect, i.e., with no evidence whatsoever other than observation of general social chatter, relative costs, etc., that TheC64 full-size (all versions) outsold the VCS. Even if it didn't, then there's no doubt in my mind that The64 Mini and all versions of the Maxi combined outsold the VCS. I'm not sure I get the comparison, though. It would be one thing if the VCS were a more straightforward emulation setup of Atari 8-bit stuff, but it's a completely different device that was at a much higher price point. It was never priced for multi-territory mass market consumption like TheC64 series.

[leech]

17 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

I would suspect, i.e., with no evidence whatsoever other than observation of general social chatter, relative costs, etc., that TheC64 full-size (all versions) outsold the VCS. Even if it didn't, then there's no doubt in my mind that The64 Mini and all versions of the Maxi combined outsold the VCS. I'm not sure I get the comparison, though. It would be one thing if the VCS were a more straightforward emulation setup of Atari 8-bit stuff, but it's a completely different device that was at a much higher price point. It was never priced for multi-territory mass market consumption like TheC64 series.

Ha, too bad a new 800xl wasn't created...  we have a few fpga remakes, though none yet (that I know of) are of the drop in replacement variety.  I would love to see a project that integrates the modern upgrades into a drop in replacement for the 800xl!

Granted the C64 just sold so many more units, and has a much larger library.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

Sort of related, Eugene Jarvis (I imagine everyone here knows who he is - if not, he's interviewed a bit in the Atari 50th), seems to take a shot at Atari in a recent interview, without naming them directly. Last line of the quote here:

 

Quote

“The key is passion and focus,” he tells me.

“Also team continuity, and the combination of hot young driven creatives, and geezer experience. We’ve avoided the monetary temptations of console and mobile because we love the visceral immediacy and emotional high of the arcade experience.

“If we were just out for cash, we’d be ponzi blockchain crypto bros peddling gaming NFTs!”

 

[Cyprian]

800XL Mini would be cool. I would buy it.

[oky2000]

Although the new VCS is more than an emulation of the original, unlike theC64 products, theC64 fullsize still isn't a drop in replacement. You can't use it on a CRT, you can't use a Euromax Zipstik as there is hardly any support for even the most common USB to D9 adaptor, you can't plug in and play real carts and you can't load real disks or tapes. The only real advantage it has is the keyboard layout and all the PETSCII graphics printed on the front of all the keys for coding in BASIC.

 

They do both play on powerful nostalgia, the total sales of C64, SX-64 and C128 models is not a million miles away to those of the VCS models of the past, that is really why I was curious. Both use an emulator to play their original games and both are HDMI only was my thinking really.

 

 

[GraffitiTavern]

16 hours ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Sort of related, Eugene Jarvis (I imagine everyone here knows who he is - if not, he's interviewed a bit in the Atari 50th), seems to take a shot at Atari in a recent interview, without naming them directly. Last line of the quote here:

 

 

I really don't Atari has realized how much credibility they lost(not that they had a ton before) with the NFT/crypto push, which sucks because their actual game output has gotten a lot better in the last two years

[Corby]

Perfect now I'll never get an Atari box.....I mean VCS! 

[Bill Loguidice]

1 hour ago, oky2000 said:

Although the new VCS is more than an emulation of the original, unlike theC64 products, theC64 fullsize still isn't a drop in replacement. You can't use it on a CRT, you can't use a Euromax Zipstik as there is hardly any support for even the most common USB to D9 adaptor, you can't plug in and play real carts and you can't load real disks or tapes. The only real advantage it has is the keyboard layout and all the PETSCII graphics printed on the front of all the keys for coding in BASIC.

 

They do both play on powerful nostalgia, the total sales of C64, SX-64 and C128 models is not a million miles away to those of the VCS models of the past, that is really why I was curious. Both use an emulator to play their original games and both are HDMI only was my thinking really.

 

 

TheC64 and TheA500 series were never meant to be or marketed as drop in replacements or perfect replicas. They're just more versatile plug and plays that can mirror most of the core functionality of their original platforms. For what they are, I'd say they're excellent and they well knew what their target market wanted, and, more importantly, delivered, and at the right price. That's why it's so important to have a clear product vision and goals. No one ever really knew what that was with the VCS (Atari could never articulate it) other than "you like Atari-branded stuff, right?", and it suffered because of it.

Edited January 1, 2023 by Bill Loguidice

[Flojomojo]

Lifestyle brand!

[leech]

2 hours ago, oky2000 said:

Although the new VCS is more than an emulation of the original, unlike theC64 products, theC64 fullsize still isn't a drop in replacement. You can't use it on a CRT, you can't use a Euromax Zipstik as there is hardly any support for even the most common USB to D9 adaptor, you can't plug in and play real carts and you can't load real disks or tapes. The only real advantage it has is the keyboard layout and all the PETSCII graphics printed on the front of all the keys for coding in BASIC.

 

They do both play on powerful nostalgia, the total sales of C64, SX-64 and C128 models is not a million miles away to those of the VCS models of the past, that is really why I was curious. Both use an emulator to play their original games and both are HDMI only was my thinking really.

 

 

Yeah, I was referring more about the Ultimate64 and C64 Reloaded, which you can literally put inside an old or new c64 case and use original peripherals.