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News article possible end of VCS


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56 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

TheC64 and TheA500 series were never meant to be or marketed as drop in replacements or perfect replicas. They're just more versatile plug and plays that can mirror most of the core functionality of their original platforms. For what they are, I'd say they're excellent and they well knew what their target market wanted, and, more importantly, delivered, and at the right price. That's why it's so important to have a clear product vision and goals. No one ever really knew what that was with the VCS (Atari could never articulate it) other than "you like Atari-branded stuff, right?", and it suffered because of it.

They tried to sell it as an open console with streaming services.  1) I would say the vast majority of people don't know what 'open console' means.  Or people considered it 'like a Raspberry Pi because I can install my own stuff on it'.  2) no one really wants a streaming game system...

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3 hours ago, leech said:

They tried to sell it as an open console with streaming services.  1) I would say the vast majority of people don't know what 'open console' means.  Or people considered it 'like a Raspberry Pi because I can install my own stuff on it'.  2) no one really wants a streaming game system...

They tried to fence sit on whether it was a PC or console or retro system, when multimedia machines have generally never done well. Remember how much backlash there was to Xbox One over trying to turn it into a multimedia box? Then they finally pivoted to just calling it a PC, which I also think was a mistake because that market is already so crowded and didn't come with an OS. Even Valve with their massive pile of money, games, and diehard fans couldn't succeed with the living-room PC thing. (Steam Deck seems more successful but it is also portable, and a high-powered handheld is an unfilled niche) My two cents is to just market it as an affordable lower-end console(competing with Series S and Switch) with it being moddable as a core feature.

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2 hours ago, Dadisajoke said:

From my point of view is that the VCS is not even close to dead, it's just starting to pick up steam. So many things have been announced or teased for 2023. I even posted a video about it, because those articles were just click bait.

 

https://youtu.be/lCKBVE2PFfM

It's good to be optimistic, but if you look over the financials, it's not good. There really is not steam to pick up for the platform and it would be surprising if it lasted beyond 2023 (setting aside the fact that Atari themselves may not make it out of 2023 as they are presently constructed). With that said, that's a lot longer than originally expected.

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16 minutes ago, Dadisajoke said:

Either way it will be interesting to see. The one thing which is the most important is to get the VCS to international markets, that is priority 1.

(Legit asking, not an attack.) How do you figure they can do that now with no money when they couldn't do it before when they had a few more resources? They'd likely have to repackage (and possibly reflash) existing inventory to meet territorial requirements and partner with some type of distributors or retailers. We don't even know how much inventory is left to repurpose and it's unlikely they'd commission another manufacturing run on the off chance that those outside the US would be interested in the platform in significant numbers. Again, not an attack, just trying to understand how this "priority 1" idea could be enacted with the company's current condition.

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You make a really good point, but as a Canadian and a huge Atari fan, I had to jump through a ton of hoops to get one. 

 

Now, by no means am I expert on this, but if they got some good financial backing or if they have someone already, couldn't they use that money to get manufactures in different regions to make the VCS for them and sell it. Maybe open satellite offices to do the marketing and distribution?

 

Now if they have no financial backing, then they are in deep trouble.  

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15 hours ago, GraffitiTavern said:

My two cents is to just market it as an affordable lower-end console(competing with Series S and Switch) with it being moddable as a core feature.

It never could compete on a power basis with the Series S (although it is itself compromised in comparison to the Series X, albeit with a much, much smaller physical size) and the Switch's extreme versatility puts it in a whole other class. Considering there are well over 4,000 ("optimized") games for the Switch and close to that number for Xbox Series S (counting Xbox One games, but not counting the large number of backwards compatible Xbox and Xbox 360 games), going up against either one is not ideal (nor is it for anyone going against the big three, unless you're coming at it from a different direction, like the Apple and Google mobile stuff). After the Atari 2600, it's always been about the lack of desirable games for Atari's platforms in comparison to the competition, and that hasn't changed with the modern VCS. 

 

On the other hand, I absolutely agree that the "moddable" aspect is unique enough. While you can do PC-like things on the Series S/X, it's still not a full-blown TV PC from a practical standpoint. Of course, even the VCS is not really that without some work from the end user, so the average person is still better off with some other solution. Still, if I absolutely was stuck with marketing the VCS as it was released, that is definitely an approach I would have taken. I certainly appreciate them offering the more recent options with a "PC Mode" USB stick, which goes a long way to making it easier for the average consumer to work with. 

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3 minutes ago, Dadisajoke said:

You make a really good point, but as a Canadian and a huge Atari fan, I had to jump through a ton of hoops to get one. 

 

Now, by no means am I expert on this, but if they got some good financial backing or if they have someone already, couldn't they use that money to get manufactures in different regions to make the VCS for them and sell it. Maybe open satellite offices to do the marketing and distribution?

 

Now if they have no financial backing, then they are in deep trouble.  

Yeah, distributing into Canada is even an issue as you know, as you need to translate the packaging into French, and there are other distribution hurdles. That's why home arcade machines/products from AtGames and Arcade1Up go through places like BuyStuffStore and others rather than selling directly, which jacks up the price significantly for Canadian consumers, who are already in the negative with the exchange rate. 

 

Atari's ace-in-the-hole was always super fans such as yourself, who still view the logo as something they want to remain connected to and want the platform to succeed no matter what else is out there. Otherwise, outside of those who are tech curious and bargain hunters - buying the VCS at $99 (Gamestop) or the more recent sub-$200 Speakerhat bundles direct from Atari - I suspect the majority of VCS owners are the former. The problem for the platform was that there were never going to be enough of those super fans to reach a sustainable mass, and, even if the deeply discount prices were sustainable, likely not enough of those types of buyers who would actually support the platform after purchase (i.e., buying games on the VCS store; I'm likely one of them if/when my Speakerhat bundle arrives). 

There's ALWAYS a chance for some type of influx of funds, regardless of the source, but then the question always goes back to why would you continue to back one of the things, the modern VCS, that put you in the hole in the first place? It's like doubling down on a bad bet. It's very unlikely to change anything. If there is an influx of funds into Atari or a change of ownership, etc., then the more likely course of action would be to sunset everything that's not making money (or worse, losing money), focus on the things that are, and come up with new ideas. For the latter, there's still enough life in the brand if they can avoid being distracted by things like Speakerhats, NFTs, hotels, game shows, and VCS's they can again be sustainable as a small, agile business. 

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On 1/1/2023 at 3:20 PM, GraffitiTavern said:

They tried to fence sit on whether it was a PC or console or retro system, when multimedia machines have generally never done well. Remember how much backlash there was to Xbox One over trying to turn it into a multimedia box? Then they finally pivoted to just calling it a PC, which I also think was a mistake because that market is already so crowded and didn't come with an OS. Even Valve with their massive pile of money, games, and diehard fans couldn't succeed with the living-room PC thing. (Steam Deck seems more successful but it is also portable, and a high-powered handheld is an unfilled niche) My two cents is to just market it as an affordable lower-end console(competing with Series S and Switch) with it being moddable as a core feature.

I wouldn't say that... Sony sold the PS3 as a multimedia computer in the EU(or was it just the UK) as there were extra taxes for gaming consoles and it was plenty successful.

Modern game consoles ARE multimedia PCs.  They only thing that makes them not just normal PCs is the lack of an office suite. 

The reason the Steam Machines failed were 1) SteamOS wasn't ready, there was no integrated Wine, so it only would run Linux native games.  2) they were not made by Valve, so there were multiple tiers of machines, most of which were too expensive for the specs, which comes with trying to squish standard components into a tiny form factor.

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20 minutes ago, leech said:

I wouldn't say that... Sony sold the PS3 as a multimedia computer in the EU(or was it just the UK) as there were extra taxes for gaming consoles and it was plenty successful.

Modern game consoles ARE multimedia PCs.  They only thing that makes them not just normal PCs is the lack of an office suite. 

The reason the Steam Machines failed were 1) SteamOS wasn't ready, there was no integrated Wine, so it only would run Linux native games.  2) they were not made by Valve, so there were multiple tiers of machines, most of which were too expensive for the specs, which comes with trying to squish standard components into a tiny form factor.

We have to be careful not to get terms conflated.  By PC, we mean a x86/64 CPU and industry standard architecture.  It will boot a standard PC OS.  An Xbox, Playstation etc cannot do that.  Nor can the dedicated OS's on the consoles be run directly on a PC, or eachother.  It's like back in the day, you had computers with a 6502 or Z80, but it didn't mean they could use the same software.  PCs are a standard, the aforementioned consoles are proprietary platforms.  The VCS is really a PC with a custom mainboard and case, the VCS 'platform' is really a specification for running mostly Unity games within 4-8GB on x86-64 PC Linux (ELF binaries).

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5 minutes ago, THX-1138 said:

We have to be careful not to get terms conflated.  By PC, we mean a x86/64 CPU and industry standard architecture.  It will boot a standard PC OS.  An Xbox, Playstation etc cannot do that.  Nor can the dedicated OS's on the consoles be run directly on a PC, or eachother.  It's like back in the day, you had computers with a 6502 or Z80, but it didn't mean they could use the same software.  PCs are standard, the aforementioned consoles are proprietary platforms.  The VCS is really a PC with a custom mainboard and case, the VCS 'platform' is really a specification for running mostly Unity games within 4-8GB on x86-64 PC Linux (ELF binaries).

PC just means personal computer.  And sure, you can boot Windows on an Xbox, and I believe most of the Playstations can run Linux.  Now the dedicated operating systems not able to run directly on a PC... well technically it should be perfectly possible, it's just no one has bothered doing so (outside of emulation).

The VCS is a Console... custom hardware / case.  But they left the DRM protections off so you can install an alternative OS.  That is literally the only difference from my VCS and my PS5.  If it were not for Sony locking down the hardware / operating system combo, you could easily install it onto a PC, or could easily install Linux / Windows on it.  Last two generations were literally just x86_64 based systems with a custom operating system.  If Atari had just said 'this is a console' and didn't give out the password for the BIOS, and indeed made it so hitting Esc didn't let you into the bios, then it would be just a console.  Hell, the way it's set up, you could still upgrade the memory and storage, and still only ever use AtariOS on it.  Sure, I don't see many developers saying "Oh, my game requires 32gb of RAM" but I mean that isn't even a thing in the 'PC' world yet.  In fact, I can upgrade the storage of my PS5 as well (granted they don't let you upgrade the memory). 
I've been saying this for a while now, but basically the Console is on it's way out.  Everything is just going to be merging into something like a Consumer PC, and Business PC.  Consumer PCs are likely to start locking things down so you can only game and do the basic stuff like email, browse, office suite stuff.  Business PCs will let you install other applications.  We're already seeing it with things like Windows S and Chromebooks.  Weirdly the VCS seems to be the one that sort of gets that.  They even have a link in the OS for Google Docs...

But yeah, at this stage the only real difference between a PC and at least the two major game consoles (Xbox and Playstation) is that those two are not 'open' platforms. 

It's sad to me, as I very much like playing around with other hardware / architectures / operating systems.  These days all we're left with is ARM and x86 based systems, and for the most part they borrow tricks from each other to get speed, which is why we have the mess of the speculative execution nonsense with vulnerabilities...

Also, we do even have ARM PCs at this point, so there really isn't a standard industry architecture anymore (or soon won't be).

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1 hour ago, leech said:

PC just means personal computer.  And sure, you can boot Windows on an Xbox, and I believe most of the Playstations can run Linux.  Now the dedicated operating systems not able to run directly on a PC... well technically it should be perfectly possible, it's just no one has bothered doing so (outside of emulation).

The VCS is a Console... custom hardware / case.  But they left the DRM protections off so you can install an alternative OS.  That is literally the only difference from my VCS and my PS5.  If it were not for Sony locking down the hardware / operating system combo, you could easily install it onto a PC, or could easily install Linux / Windows on it.  Last two generations were literally just x86_64 based systems with a custom operating system.  If Atari had just said 'this is a console' and didn't give out the password for the BIOS, and indeed made it so hitting Esc didn't let you into the bios, then it would be just a console.  Hell, the way it's set up, you could still upgrade the memory and storage, and still only ever use AtariOS on it.  Sure, I don't see many developers saying "Oh, my game requires 32gb of RAM" but I mean that isn't even a thing in the 'PC' world yet.  In fact, I can upgrade the storage of my PS5 as well (granted they don't let you upgrade the memory). 
I've been saying this for a while now, but basically the Console is on it's way out.  Everything is just going to be merging into something like a Consumer PC, and Business PC.  Consumer PCs are likely to start locking things down so you can only game and do the basic stuff like email, browse, office suite stuff.  Business PCs will let you install other applications.  We're already seeing it with things like Windows S and Chromebooks.  Weirdly the VCS seems to be the one that sort of gets that.  They even have a link in the OS for Google Docs...

But yeah, at this stage the only real difference between a PC and at least the two major game consoles (Xbox and Playstation) is that those two are not 'open' platforms. 

It's sad to me, as I very much like playing around with other hardware / architectures / operating systems.  These days all we're left with is ARM and x86 based systems, and for the most part they borrow tricks from each other to get speed, which is why we have the mess of the speculative execution nonsense with vulnerabilities...

Also, we do even have ARM PCs at this point, so there really isn't a standard industry architecture anymore (or soon won't be).

Yes PC means personal computer in the broad sense.  In that broad sense anything with a computer in it can be a PC, a Raspberry Pi, a PS3 etc. etc.  We live in times when terms like personal computer and console, in the broader sense, can be interchanged, I get that. 

But I am not talking about that, I'm referring to the x86 PC architecture, which is a defined set of standards which the consoles we mentioned do not adhere to, even if they have an x86 chip in them, the rest of the hardware and firmware is custom.  Therefore standard x86 PC operating systems cannot run directly on them and their software cannot run on anything else.  The reason why I'm trying to be so specific rather than general, is because there is a running criticism of the VCS that it's merely a console, in the proprietary hardware/software platform sense. It can be put into a "PC mode", like a Playstation etc, but requires a special mode or things to make that work.

I'm trying to drive home the point that such a view is self limiting because the VCS -IS- a standard PC, as in standard x86/PC architecture instead of a proprietary console platform.  That is actually a strength of the VCS.  Buying a VCS is a good investment because it's not gonna die if Atari end support, because the hardware is standard PC compatible and the games are also a good investment because they will run as-is on another Linux install.

Unlike an Xbox, Playstation etc.
 

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4 hours ago, THX-1138 said:

Unlike an Xbox, Playstation etc.

Yeah, my point was that it is only a software lockout for the PS4/5 and laetest generation Xbox systems.  They literally are still x86 platforms made by AMD.  If they were not locked down by their manufacturers, they could be just as open as the VCS.  Atari did good in that they let people 'own' their system.

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Was thinking about this VCS because it's a PC and could be a respectable emulation box.. Then the baddies popped up.

 

A reviewer said it took a half'n'hour to get the controllers paired. And required a keyboard to do it. And then another hour to get all the updates - can't they like get it right the first time like they used to? This isn't the sort of experience I'm after. Without a doubt it's inferior to the consoles that came before it.

 

VCS looks to be a storefront for dated old-man IP which hasn't been expanded in decades. And then there's all the internetisms and online stuff and accounts and whatever. Again this isn't the experience I wouldn't bestow upon anyone. Using it as a streaming box, bah, you have to keep track of how many subscriptions? Not for me.

 

And not sure why they're gung-ho on NFT. NFT doesn't mean a whole lot in my part of town. Or to anyone I talk to. It's another one of those internet distractions that consume the time of the perpetrator and victim. And I believe both the old-school gamer and modern gamer would just rather forget about it all.

 

As far as that old-man IP goes? You can play it all online, or get those compilations and use your existing hardware.

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9 hours ago, leech said:

they were not made by Valve, so there were multiple tiers of machines, most of which were too expensive for the specs, which comes with trying to squish standard components into a tiny form factor.

Steam Machines failed for the same reason the 3DO did. Console makers make money on the software, not the hardware. When the hardware is manufactured and sold by a third party, it's always sold with a margin, so it's far too expensive regardless of the specs or form factor anyway.

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On 1/1/2023 at 1:49 PM, leech said:

1) I would say the vast majority of people don't know what 'open console' means.  Or people considered it 'like a Raspberry Pi because I can install my own stuff on it'.

Yeah apparently people struggle with that idea.   I mean they'll apparently buy flashbacks apparently even when you need to buy an Atari one, a Sega one, a Nintendo one, some with Arcade games,  wires everywhere, etc   But loading all your old games on a single console controlled by a single joystick?  ("huh, I don't get it, who would buy that?")

 

I ripped all my Wii games and loaded them onto my VCS, the WiiMotes pair, there's even a USB sensor bar.  So it's just like playing on the real thing.   People come to my house and say "I didn't know you could play Wii Games on an Atari",  or "I didn't know Atari still made consoles",  but it's not just Wii games, it's all my old games in one place from multiple systems..   When people see it, it makes sense.

 

Granted it took setup work on my part.   There's no storefront where you can download Wii or PS2 or Saturn games.   I ripped all my Wii DVD-ROMs, exported my Wiiware games (there's other ways to obtain them, but I'm not condoning that)

 

The other part is the form factor of the VCS makes it fit perfect in the entertainment system,  the average mini-PC design wouldn't fit as nice there.   Many of the raspberry Pi models, especially the older ones, had cables coming out all four sides and lacked basic power management features- which meant it didn't fit so well in a living room setup.

 

14 hours ago, Keatah said:

Was thinking about this VCS because it's a PC and could be a respectable emulation box.. Then the baddies popped up.

 

A reviewer said it took a half'n'hour to get the controllers paired. And required a keyboard to do it. And then another hour to get all the updates - can't they like get it right the first time like they used to? This isn't the sort of experience I'm after. Without a doubt it's inferior to the consoles that came before it.

That's because he wasn't using the Atari controllers.  So needed a keyboard to simulate the "Atari" button.   If you only use it as a PC emulation box you can skip that step entirely.

 

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On 12/27/2022 at 1:39 PM, Shaggy the Atarian said:
On 12/27/2022 at 12:57 PM, zzip said:

They don't even have the rights to some of their best-known games. 

Lol, what? Once again you show you don't know what you're talking about - the ONLY IP they no longer own from the 1972-84 era is BattleZone, everything else people know Atari for apart from games they never owned so yeah, best to leave it at that. Go ahead and get the last word in. 

It's far more than Battlezone.   They don't have the right to any Atari arcade game published after 1984--  no Gauntlet, No Marble Madness, STUN Runner, Klax to name but a few

 

They don't have the rights to some arcade games they produced pre-1984 because they were licensed from Namco 

ex: Dig Dug, Pole Position

 

They don't have licenses to popular games they developed based on non-videogame franchises:  Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Superman, etc.

 

And finally they don't have rights to lots of arcade games they produced home versions of that people think of when they think 2600/5200/7800 games:   Space Invaders, Pac-Man, Defender, Joust, Berzerk, etc.

 

I specifically said "rights to" not "owned" for a reason.    Most Atari compilations feel like they are missing something because they can't include any of the games in the categories I listed 

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2 hours ago, zzip said:

The other part is the form factor of the VCS makes it fit perfect in the entertainment system,  the average mini-PC design wouldn't fit as nice there.   Many of the raspberry Pi models, especially the older ones, had cables coming out all four sides and lacked basic power management features- which meant it didn't fit so well in a living room setup.

I hadn't thought much about the slimline aspect. It is indeed a good fit. The next choice would be one of those Intel NUCs, I guess, being a small 2x3x3'ish cube-like shape. Hide it anywhere. No side cables.

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On 1/2/2023 at 5:49 PM, leech said:

I wouldn't say that... Sony sold the PS3 as a multimedia computer in the EU(or was it just the UK) as there were extra taxes for gaming consoles and it was plenty successful.

Well on the PS3 UK front, I am referring to the US console market(don't pretend to know how things are done in the land of the Amiga CD32 😜)

On 1/2/2023 at 5:49 PM, leech said:

Modern game consoles ARE multimedia PCs.  They only thing that makes them not just normal PCs is the lack of an office suite. 

In terms of the multimedia functionality, I mostly agree(except for Nintendo systems), but usually the games are forward and then there is media functionality on top of that. You don't buy a PS4 for Netflix, you buy it for the games, but it is good to have Netflix and other multimedia options on the system. It's a secondary feature. That's why Microsoft was so ridiculed for focusing so much on all the TV shows you could watch on it. On whether something is PC vs console in terms of hardware, I mean the main differences imo are 1) OS, 2) set hardware model to optimize games to, and 3) marketing/presentation/UX. Xbox has always been PC-based, even before that the Dreamcast ran a compact version of Windows, NEC was a PC manufacturer, and even the 5200 was heavily based on the Atari 8-bit computer. What sold them was making good games for them and showing people that you could easily play said games on them.

 

I think Atari has the good games down now(although it still needs a bigger tentpole release to show off the tech), what needs to be worked on to make this a good console is that presentation/marketing. (as for the OS, no idea how lightweight or gaming-oriented AtariOS is)

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On 1/2/2023 at 9:25 AM, Bill Loguidice said:

It never could compete on a power basis with the Series S (although it is itself compromised in comparison to the Series X, albeit with a much, much smaller physical size) and the Switch's extreme versatility puts it in a whole other class

Well to clarify, when I say compete, I don't mean match or defeat. A lot of retro and arcade fans enjoy the Switch for its ease of use and big library, could an Atari system pull a few of them? I think so. Atari won't be able to sell 100 million units, but it also doesn't need to. It is a company with under 30 employees, it doesn't need multimillion unit sales to be profitable. Steam Deck won't be able to take down(or even make a dent in) the Switch either, but it acknowledged the other companies gaming space and found something it could do better.

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On 1/2/2023 at 10:40 AM, Bill Loguidice said:

Yeah, distributing into Canada is even an issue as you know, as you need to translate the packaging into French, and there are other distribution hurdles. That's why home arcade machines/products from AtGames and Arcade1Up go through places like BuyStuffStore and others rather than selling directly, which jacks up the price significantly for Canadian consumers, who are already in the negative with the exchange rate. 

 

I have often seen examples of "unofficial" imports or grey market stuff: someone will purchase a quantity of widgets at retail in the United States and then resell them (usuaully at an outrageous markup) here in Canada. I have seen such merchandise in retail stores in the local Mall as well as at flea markets. Products range from video games to shampoo to candy. The absence of bilingual packaging is not a concern to the target market. 

 

It would be very challenging for Atari to market directly towards these importers/resellers as they tend to be small-scale operations, but if they need to move surplus inventory and/or badly want to reach the Canadian market, this is an option to consider.   

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On 12/30/2022 at 11:28 AM, Bill Loguidice said:

I put in an order for the heck of it. I'll figure out something to do with it to get my relative money's worth.

Update. I canceled my order and my refund is processing. I just couldn't figure out how I would make use of it and I really didn't want to bother making a go of PC mode. Perhaps if I ordered the USB stick when it was available at the time of purchase, but even then, I just don't know how I would have really made use of it. If it ever comes up again for a lower price in that type of bundle, I'll consider it again I suppose.

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On 1/3/2023 at 3:20 PM, zzip said:

It's far more than Battlezone.   They don't have the right to any Atari arcade game published after 1984--  no Gauntlet, No Marble Madness, STUN Runner, Klax to name but a few

 

They don't have the rights to some arcade games they produced pre-1984 because they were licensed from Namco 

ex: Dig Dug, Pole Position

 

They don't have licenses to popular games they developed based on non-videogame franchises:  Indiana Jones, Star Wars, Superman, etc.

 

And finally they don't have rights to lots of arcade games they produced home versions of that people think of when they think 2600/5200/7800 games:   Space Invaders, Pac-Man, Defender, Joust, Berzerk, etc.

 

I specifically said "rights to" not "owned" for a reason.    Most Atari compilations feel like they are missing something because they can't include any of the games in the categories I listed 

Yes, because those (Atari Games, Namco, Midway, etc.) were NEVER their games to begin with. Would it be great if someone with money was able to put all Atari Corp./Atari Games IP under the same umbrella again? Sure. But it's not been the legal reality since 1984 so no sense in fussing over it. 

 

It's silly to think that an Atari collection should have non-Atari games on it. Should a Namco collection have Taito games on it? Was I expecting to find Battletoads on the TMNT Cowabunga collection just because BT was inspired by TMNT? Should a Street Fighter collection have Mortal Kombat games on it or a Sonic The Hedgehog collection include Mario games? This isn't an expectation that goes with any other brand in the gaming world so Atari doesn't get some magic pass just because it makes you feel weird.

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