News article possible end of VCS

[Bill Loguidice]

13 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

It's silly to think that an Atari collection should have non-Atari games on it. Should a Namco collection have Taito games on it? Was I expecting to find Battletoads on the TMNT Cowabunga collection just because BT was inspired by TMNT? Should a Street Fighter collection have Mortal Kombat games on it or a Sonic The Hedgehog collection include Mario games? This isn't an expectation that goes with any other brand in the gaming world so Atari doesn't get some magic pass just because it makes you feel weird.

The most common complaint I see on social media about the Atari 50: The Anniversary Celebration collection is that it's missing non-Atari games, although usually the poster doesn't realize that something like Space Invaders is not an Atari game. That's the universal complaint it seems for any game compilation product, be it one with a dozen game or one with hundreds of games. If their favorite game or games is not on it, it's not good or worth it, even though something like Atari 50 is objectively about as good as you can make a legal game compilation product at a fair price.

On one level, I understand the frustration and relative ignorance. It's not really fair to expect the average person to understand rights and licensing. On another level, it's frustrating when even with that in mind (or, to put it better, with that aside) such a person doesn't appreciate what IS on there. 

[zzip]

11 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

It's silly to think that an Atari collection should have non-Atari games on it. Should a Namco collection have Taito games on it? Was I expecting to find Battletoads on the TMNT Cowabunga collection just because BT was inspired by TMNT? Should a Street Fighter collection have Mortal Kombat games on it or a Sonic The Hedgehog collection include Mario games? This isn't an expectation that goes with any other brand in the gaming world so Atari doesn't get some magic pass just because it makes you feel weird.

Atari Vault 2 is full of Mattel M-Network games,  Atari 50 has Big 5 (Miner 2049er) games.

The Activision collections I have contain Imagic games,  the Midway collections have Atari Games and Williams arcade games.   

 

There's nothing that keeps these collections "on-brand"  it's just the way the IP portfolios shifted over time

 

Atari released many games under their brand on cartridge they no longer have the rights to.   A lot of these are iconic on the Atari consoles:   Space Invaders, Pole Position, Defender, Dig Dug, Pac Man, Ms. Pac Man, Galaxian and so on.   

 

This isn't about me, I'm an emulator guy and can easily fill in the missing roms,  but the average person buying an Atari compilation/flashback may be disappointed to find their favorite Atari carts missing and in their place a bunch of obscure titles they never heard of.

[zzip]

7 minutes ago, Bill Loguidice said:

The most common complaint I see on social media about the Atari 50: The Anniversary Celebration collection is that it's missing non-Atari games, although usually the poster doesn't realize that something like Space Invaders is not an Atari game.

The cart was released under the Atari brand, so to many people it was an Atari game.   Taito isn't likely to ever release a 2600 collection so there's not much hope of playing it on modern systems in a legal way.

 

A lot of people act like the rom scene is just a bunch of filthy pirates,  but this is where it serves a purpose in preservation because there are a lot of old games that will never get a proper rerelease due to rights issues

[Bill Loguidice]

5 minutes ago, zzip said:

Atari Vault 2 is full of Mattel M-Network games, 

You know why we put those games on there? We ran out of games to use and AtGames already had the relationship in place. Otherwise, it would have been just Atari games.

 

Activision collections have contained Imagic stuff because Activision owns most of the library. That's why you've seen Imagic stuff with the Activision stuff on AtGames compilations. If Atari actually owned other company's games like that, you can bet you'd see them on other compilations.

Atari 50 really wouldn't have sold all that much more to make any of the additional licensing fees worth it. Certain properties, like the Big 5 stuff, don't cost anything like most other properties do to include.

[zzip]

1 minute ago, Bill Loguidice said:

You know why we put those games on there? We ran out of games to use and AtGames already had the relationship in place. Otherwise, it would have been just Atari games.

 

Activision collections have contained Imagic stuff because Activision owns most of the library. That's why you've seen Imagic stuff with the Activision stuff on AtGames compilations. If Atari actually owned other company's games like that, you can bet you'd see them on other compilations.

Atari 50 really wouldn't have sold all that much more to make any of the additional licensing fees worth it. Certain properties, like the Big 5 stuff, don't cost anything like most other properties do to include.

Yeah I said as much.      I was just pointing out that compilations don't have to be strictly on-brand to the previous poster

 

It wouldn't be worth it to license everything,  but the biggest selling 2600 games published by Atari are

Pac-man, Space Invaders, Asteroids, Defender, ET, Ms Pac Man,  Night Driver, Berzerk, Centipede, Warlords, Breakout and Adventure

 

Atari only has rights to half of those now.   It might be worth it to license a couple of those to make a compilation more attractive and should increase sales.    (well probably not ET)

 

When someone buys an old game compilation they want the nostalgia of playing their old favorites, not stuff they don't know.  It's like buying a greatest hits album to find many of your favorite songs from artist missing.  (which happens for similar reasons)

 

It's nice to see Miner 2049er or M-Network stuff in there, but I doubt they had much effect on sales.

[Shaggy the Atarian]

15 minutes ago, zzip said:

Yeah I said as much.      I was just pointing out that compilations don't have to be strictly on-brand to the previous poster

 

It wouldn't be worth it to license everything,  but the biggest selling 2600 games published by Atari are

Pac-man, Space Invaders, Asteroids, Defender, ET, Ms Pac Man,  Night Driver, Berzerk, Centipede, Warlords, Breakout and Adventure

 

Atari only has rights to half of those now.   It might be worth it to license a couple of those to make a compilation more attractive and should increase sales.    (well probably not ET)

 

 

 

Ok, let's look again at what you said originally:

 

Quote

They don't even have the rights to some of their best-known games. 

THEIR best-known games are NOT Pac-man or River Raid because those aren't "theirs." Marketing and ignorance doesn't change that. THEIR best-known games are Asteroids, Centipede, Yars Revenge, etc. Again, out of everything Atari Corp. has owned since 1984, BattleZone is the only IP that they sold off that anyone would care about. I wasn't talking about licenses and 3rd parties, I was responding to you claiming that "their best-known games" are stuff that they didn't originally invent. 

 

Yes, average people's expectations will differ and that's ultimately a marketing person's job at these companies to fix. But once again, I was responding to ^this^, then you change the argument into something else like what should be on-brand or not.  

 

Quote

When someone buys an old game compilation they want the nostalgia of playing their old favorites, not stuff they don't know.  It's like buying a greatest hits album to find many of your favorite songs from artist missing.  (which happens for similar reasons)

This is why you read labels before purchasing something, unless you're like a lot of you VCS fans where all you need is an Atari logo on it and you'll buy whatever it is, sight unseen.

 

Quote

It's not really fair to expect the average person to understand rights and licensing. On another level, it's frustrating when even with that in mind (or, to put it better, with that aside) such a person doesn't appreciate what IS on there.

 

If you buy an Atari 50th collection and are crying because crappy 2600 Pac-Man isn't on there, it's your own dumb fault and not Namco, Atari's nor Digital Eclipse's. None of them pulled the wool over the consumer's eyes just because they can't take 5 minutes to do a tiny bit of research.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Shaggy the Atarian

[zzip]

10 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

THEIR best-known games are NOT Pac-man or River Raid because those aren't "theirs." Marketing and ignorance doesn't change that. THEIR best-known games are Asteroids, Centipede, Yars Revenge, etc. Again, out of everything Atari Corp. has owned since 1984, BattleZone is the only IP that they sold off that anyone would care about. I wasn't talking about licenses and 3rd parties, I was responding to you claiming that "their best-known games" are stuff that they didn't originally invent. 

Atari produced the carts and arcade cabinets with Atari fuji logos prominently displayed everywhere.   Real IP holder is listed somewhere in fine print.   Did Namco produce the mess that is 2600 PacMan?   Did Spielberg make the ET game so infamous?  No, Atari did the work on the arcade conversions, they produced original games based on movies.  They seered their logo in our heads so that to this day everybody knows these as Atari games.  And they no longer hold the license

 

So when I say "They don't even have the rights to some of their best-known games", I am describing the situation above, nothing more.   I shouldn't have to write paragraphs and paragraphs to explain a simple point to prevent people from twisting my words into something I was never arguing in the first place!!!

 

 

[Flojomojo]

It's kind of a drag, really. If you buy a retro-hipster style turntable from Urban Outfitters, it can play all the records you spin on it, not just the overpriced $50 special editions from Barnes and Noble. Then again, it doesn't come packed in with any of that music, you have to bring it yourself. 

 

As much as I like to support commercial emulation and the rights holders, there's only so much milking a consumer can tolerate. If a company expects me to buy a whole new locked-in record player when the competition costs the same and has a whole lot more content, it's an easy choice to make. 

 

"But the Atari VCS is also a PC!!!" Sure, but so is my PC. 

[Flojomojo]

Let's not fight amongst ourselves, there are few enough Atari fans left alive!!

[zzip]

12 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

It's kind of a drag, really. If you buy a retro-hipster style turntable from Urban Outfitters, it can play all the records you spin on it, not just the overpriced $50 special editions from Barnes and Noble. Then again, it doesn't come packed in with any of that music, you have to bring it yourself. 

 

As much as I like to support commercial emulation and the rights holders, there's only so much milking a consumer can tolerate. If a company expects me to buy a whole new locked-in record player when the competition costs the same and has a whole lot more content, it's an easy choice to make. 

Yeah I would always have loved to see a roms store, iTunes style-  (iRomz?)  Music licensing has many of the same issues as games, but they made it work.

 

Atari and other companies could still make this mini/retro consoles with built-in iRomz interface to download your purchases.

 

The Atari 50 collections could still be the first with Jaguar support, but now you have access to the whole Jag library and not just the 9 titles it shipped with.  This would be great for people who don't have the time or tech knowledge to run emulators on their own.

 

 

[Shaggy the Atarian]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Atari produced the carts and arcade cabinets with Atari fuji logos prominently displayed everywhere.   Real IP holder is listed somewhere in fine print.   Did Namco produce the mess that is 2600 PacMan?   Did Spielberg make the ET game so infamous?  No, Atari did the work on the arcade conversions, they produced original games based on movies.  They seered their logo in our heads so that to this day everybody knows these as Atari games.  And they no longer hold the license

 

and yet it doesn't matter what's seared into your brain or that of the guy next door, that still doesn't make them Atari IPs. Mortal Kombat isn't a Sega IP just because you might have only played the game on a Genesis. 

 

Quote

So when I say "They don't even have the rights to some of their best-known games", I am describing the situation above, nothing more.   I shouldn't have to write paragraphs and paragraphs to explain a simple point to prevent people from twisting my words into something I was never arguing in the first place!!!

 

Stop acting all surprised when you say something that people respond to instead of the thoughts in your head that you didn't share with the rest of the class. 

 

[zzip]

8 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

and yet it doesn't matter what's seared into your brain or that of the guy next door, that still doesn't make them Atari IPs. Mortal Kombat isn't a Sega IP just because you might have only played the game on a Genesis. 

Did Sega publish Mortal Combat on the system?   No?  Then it's different.   

 

People aren't looking for Atari to publish a collection of Parker Brothers arcade ports or Coleco,  they want the games Atari ported.   Atari lost the rights.  As a result the collections feel incomplete because half of the best-selling Atari 2600 games can't be included.

 

16 minutes ago, Shaggy the Atarian said:

Stop acting all surprised when you say something that people respond to instead of the thoughts in your head that you didn't share with the rest of the class. 

If I'm unclear, I find people will accept my clarification posts.   You've been cherry-picking and twisting things I said since I made a certain comment about the older consoles the other week.

[Flojomojo]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Yeah I would always have loved to see a roms store, iTunes style-  (iRomz?)  Music licensing has many of the same issues as games, but they made it work.

 

Atari and other companies could still make this mini/retro consoles with built-in iRomz interface to download your purchases.

 

The Atari 50 collections could still be the first with Jaguar support, but now you have access to the whole Jag library and not just the 9 titles it shipped with.  This would be great for people who don't have the time or tech knowledge to run emulators on their own.

That would be neat, but for it to work, it would have to be worth someone's while to set it up, and it would need to be easier than piracy. Even iTunes music purchases have slowed down a lot since Spotify etc. came along for streaming. We still have piracy/preservation at least!

 

Maybe game streaming will get there someday. But not with this kind of amazing exclusive, like I just received from the AntStream promo email list. Atari VCS streaming exclusive! 8KB of game code, streamed over your network. 

 

[zzip]

9 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

That would be neat, but for it to work, it would have to be worth someone's while to set it up, and it would need to be easier than piracy. Even iTunes music purchases have slowed down a lot since Spotify etc. came along for streaming. We still have piracy/preservation at least!

Yeah iTunes had the same problem.   It came years after Napster,  but they still managed

 

Rom hunting takes you to some of the scuzziest sites on the internet.  Would be nice to go to a legit source where you don't have to worry about porn popping up in a window at random.   And putting built-in integration to flashback and emulators like retroarch would make it easier than piracy

 

GoG offers something like this,  they have a bunch of old Dos games that are packaged with embedded Dosbox to run on modern systems.   I just haven't seen any for non-DOS platforms.

[Flojomojo]

7 minutes ago, zzip said:

Rom hunting takes you to some of the scuzziest sites on the internet.  Would be nice to go to a legit source where you don't have to worry about porn popping up in a window at random. 

I probably shouldn't say this, but everything I could ever want is a click away on the internet archive, in any format, nicely organized, and virus free. Also all the Atari console stuff is right here on this site. I'm grabbing some Playstation CHDs as I type this. 

[MrBeefy]

42 minutes ago, Flojomojo said:

That would be neat, but for it to work, it would have to be worth someone's while to set it up, and it would need to be easier than piracy. Even iTunes music purchases have slowed down a lot since Spotify etc. came along for streaming. We still have piracy/preservation at least!

 

Maybe game streaming will get there someday. But not with this kind of amazing exclusive, like I just received from the AntStream promo email list. Atari VCS streaming exclusive! 8KB of game code, streamed over your network. 

They better milk that hard before the VCS 2 gets released! 🤣

[roots.genoa]

Actually, I would be pissed if Atari had licensed Space Invaders or Pac-Man for Atari 50, because it would be about time people understand they are Taito and Namco games respectively. History and its preservation is more important than nostalgia to me.
(yes, I know that IPs can make preservation more difficult)

[BeamRider]

4 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

You know why we put those games on there? We ran out of games to use and AtGames already had the relationship in place.

 

Otherwise, it would have been just Atari games.

 Konami, Taito, Data East and Activision were also on Flashbacks.
 

[joeatari1]

12 minutes ago, zzip said:

You've been cherry-picking and twisting things I said since I made a certain comment about the older consoles the other week.

It's not you.  He does this to everyone he doesn't agree with.  Likes to pick apart minute details about a post just to show how wrong you are.  Multiple quotes from 17 different threads just to put words into your mouth.  Just ignore.

[MrBeefy]

1 hour ago, roots.genoa said:

Actually, I would be pissed if Atari had licensed Space Invaders or Pac-Man for Atari 50, because it would be about time people understand they are Taito and Namco games respectively. History and its preservation is more important than nostalgia to me.
(yes, I know that IPs can make preservation more difficult)

If they don't know it now, they won't care to know. The general public care if it has what they want to play or not. What's your high score in Pong?

[Keatah]

FWIW I take the simple approach and just go with how I learned about a game. This means Atari made Assault for example. The splash screen clearly says Namco. But I remember the arcade cab having the Atari Logo on it. And that's how I first saw it. So.. Not my problem. My green post-teen self assumed Atari needed some help and thus borrowed Namco's designers and engineers. And I was right! On both counts. The Marquee and flyer proves it! it! Yeh! Manufactured by Atari - means it rolled off Atari's assembly line. MADE.. BY.. ATARI.. Pfft! Designed and Engineered by Namco means guys sat around and told Atari how to do it. They helped Atari build it.

 

BTW I love this box mock-up! Be s'cool to have some (or one all inclusive) done up for M.A.M.E. with a spot for an SD card or some sort of storage device in it.

 

 

[Keatah]

On the other hand consider Gyruss. I don't know WTF makes it. Konami or Centauri? I clearly remember playing it in Aladdin's Castle and it had a Centauri label on it. So it must be Centauri. OTH the Konami "version" is what shows up in MAME. Actually both do. 2B an ass about it I'm just gonna stick with first impressions. No sense in muddying my own memory for the sake IP accuracy, let the databases worry about it.

[Bill Loguidice]

2 hours ago, BeamRider said:

 Konami, Taito, Data East and Activision were also on Flashbacks.
 

Yes, but those were not available for a mass market software release with Atari branding. The M Network stuff was much easier.

Edited January 6, 2023 by Bill Loguidice

[Flojomojo]

6 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Actually, I would be pissed if Atari had licensed Space Invaders or Pac-Man for Atari 50, because it would be about time people understand they are Taito and Namco games respectively. History and its preservation is more important than nostalgia to me.
(yes, I know that IPs can make preservation more difficult)

The Atari flashbacks that got Pac-Man Space Invaders were closer to how we remembered the old systems with games from multiple countries. 

3 hours ago, Bill Loguidice said:

Yes, but those were not available for a mass market software release with Atari branding. The M Network stuff was much easier.

I wonder why AtGames was able to get the other stuff while Atari chooses not to? Except for Big Five software on Atari 50, sticking out as the only third party things on the collection. 
 

Assault and Grobda as Xevious sequels are cool and under appreciated. 

[roots.genoa]

9 hours ago, MrBeefy said:

What's your high score in Pong?

I dare you to beat mine! 😎

8 hours ago, Keatah said:

On the other hand consider Gyruss. I don't know WTF makes it. Konami or Centauri? I clearly remember playing it in Aladdin's Castle and it had a Centauri label on it. So it must be Centauri. OTH the Konami "version" is what shows up in MAME. Actually both do. 2B an ass about it I'm just gonna stick with first impressions. No sense in muddying my own memory for the sake IP accuracy, let the databases worry about it.

Don't take it the wrong way but I despise you. Deeply and sincerely. 🙂