retrogameboyz prototype Intellivision arcade stick style controller

[timdu]

Hi everyone

 

Mike Tarallo , owner of retrogameboyz.com, maker of various controllers for retro systems, is looking for some feedback and input for the Intellivision controller he is considering making and selling.

 

I told him I would see if I can reach out to the Intellivision community and get some input / feedback from him.

I have purchased a controller from retrogameboyz.com for my Atari 5200 and I have been very impressed so far.

 

 

 

Here is a Youtube video of his progress so far with his prototype Intellivision controller:

 

https://youtu.be/AfwDxE0NtoU

 

 

I am definitely interested in one, especially if the price point will be around the same price as the  ATARI 5200 joystick.

( ~ $125 )

Let's see if we can get some more people interested in it! 

 

Here are some initial questions / comments:

 

1. This prototype requires 5 V external power - because the intellivison2 does not have a pin in the Joystick port that is powered like the Atari 2600 for example  -  the reason for this  it’s using a  chip that needs to be powered in order to emulate all the directions when using a standard arcade micro switch joystick.

 

2. I am not thrilled to see that there is not a third button. would also like to see a third button added instead of the "combo of pressing  button 1 & 2" to achieve the pressing of button 3. Mike asked me for a list of games that use the third button.

 

3. What about games like TRON DEADLY DISCS ( where 2 standard controllers can be used at the same time for optimum game play ) or VECTRON or Q BERT ( where the disc provides 16 directions, this Intellivision arcade stick controller would not )   So it may not be able to be used for 100% of the games in the Intellivision game library.

 

 

thanks,

 

Tim

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by timdu
typo

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

A lot of people don't seem too thrilled about having to press 2 action buttons at once to make the 3rd button work. Grips was able to figure out how to make the action buttons work independently/separately using a microcontroller on his awesome arcade controller he sold in the past, so it's certainly doable.

 

Or even better, a passive approach, like Côté Gamers did using diodes and whatnot in their controller.

 

Same with the power supply issue.. Being tethered to an additional cable to power the thing is kind of going to suck. Hopefully he can figure out how to get the power requirements minimized so just a couple of batteries can be used instead, which are replaced by the end user every so often. Or perhaps a rechargeable battery option or something like that.

 

Anyway, other than that, this looks promising and am looking forward to seeing his progress on this.

Edited December 31, 2022 by SiLic0ne t0aD

[mr_me]

I don't think it's a matter of figuring out how to do three action buttons.  It's more of a matter of making them since he's already making two button Atari 5200 and Colecovision controllers.  The third action button is handled no differently than the other fourteen buttons.  And the prototype joystick shown in the video doesn't do all directions, it does eight.

 

Buttons aren't an issue in a non-powered design, two diodes for each button.  The joystick is more the issue, depending on how much game compatibility you want.  Lots of Intellivision games would be compatible with a standard joystick using four switches, non-powered.  A few more games become compatible with powered logic.  I think it can be designed in a way so that a powered design still works when not powered.  Côté Gamers was able to do sixteen directions with twelve switches, non-powered.

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by mr_me

[+evg2000]

since it's powered it's probably using an Arduino, or another MCU.  It that's true, then just use an analog JS and you can have all 16 directions.

[+cmadruga]

To the original post, I don’t think getting a list of games that already use the 3rd button is a good approach.
New games are being created all the time nowadays, and programmers don’t need one more thing to keep in mind (“avoid using a 3rd button”) to make sure players will fully enjoy the games.

[mr_me]

This is my opinion, but Intellivision games targeting default hardware shouldn't use all three side buttons in action games.  The Intellivision controller works well when the left/right action buttons are mirrored but awkward when they aren't.  It's why some programmers used the keypad for the third action.  With alternative Intellivision controllers like Côté Gamers', three action buttons work well but games using them would limit the audience somewhat.  It's up to the developer, of course.

Edited December 31, 2022 by mr_me

[+DZ-Jay]

3 minutes ago, mr_me said:

This is my opinion, but Intellivision games targeting default hardware shouldn't use all three side buttons in action games.  The Intellivision controller works well when the left/right action buttons are mirrored but awkward when they aren't.  It's why some programmers used the keypad for the third action.  With alternative Intellivision controllers like Côté Gamers', three action buttons work well but games using them would limit the audience somewhat.  It's up to the developer, of course.

I disagree.  If you limit your gaming paradigm to action games, perhaps; but there are plenty of gaming genres and other applications in which more input surfaces are better than less.

 

New and original games are being released all the time, so why should we view everything through the lenses of what was designed 40 years ago -- or worse, through the limited prism of what is merely popular today.

 

My opinion is in line with @cmadruga's:  games are whatever the designer wants them to be, and their input control is whatever works for each individual program; and it is sub-optimal -- to say the least -- to limit the applications and their creativity for the sake of some arbitrary third-party controller.

 

I personally think that new input controls should support what the hardware offers.  Anything less is a step backwards from where we were in the 1980s.  (This goes doubly so for supporting the full 16 directions of the disc.  That some programmers can't see beyond their limited experience does not mean we all do.)

 

    dZ.

[mr_me]

I'm not saying three button action games shouldn't be designed.  I'm saying, considering the original Intellivision controller, the third action works better on the keypad so side buttons can be mirrored, as in Defender and Space Hawk.  If you're okay using buttons on both sides of the controller that's great but I would have much preferred if Bomb Squad, Vectron, Novablast, for example, didn't.  With PGA Golf, PBA Bowling, or Utopia, for example, the use of all three side buttons isn't much of an issue.  So if you're designing an action game, you should consider how it controls with original hardware, even though alternative controllers offer a different layout.

 

[timdu]

So perhaps we should suggest that Mike uses on of these joysticks to get all 16 directions ( compared to the prototype only has 8 ) :

 

 

https://www.adafruit.com/product/3102

 

 

[wolfy62]

This is the joystick I purchased from Grips03, and I love it!

It came with the choice of a 4 or 8 directional gate installed, with whichever one you didn't have installed packaged in also, so you could swap it out yourself if you like. 

I chose the 4 direction choice for games such as Pacman,Ladybug or games you just slide left and right on,such as Beamrider or Dreadnaught Factor. 

I use it often because the joystick makes the control awesome.

Obviously its great on a bunch of other games I did not list.

The only real downside is it's not a 16 direction controller,which would be the optimum choice for the Intellivision. 

If one of those were made,I would definitely purchase one for $125. and probably even a little more than that.👍

[+DZ-Jay]

2 hours ago, mr_me said:

So if you're designing an action game, you should consider how it controls with original hardware, even though alternative controllers offer a different layout.

 

Of course -- that's one of my personal pet-peeves: that programmers do not consider the implications of their design on actual hardware.  That said, there are many more genres than just action games.

 

1 hour ago, timdu said:

So perhaps we should suggest that Mike uses on of these joysticks to get all 16 directions ( compared to the prototype only has 8 ) :

 

 

https://www.adafruit.com/product/3102

 

 

 

Being an analog device will require additional effort either in the controller hardware or the game software to manage the quantization of 16 directions.

 

25 minutes ago, wolfy62 said:

This is the joystick I purchased from Grips03, and I love it!

It came with the choice of a 4 or 8 directional gate installed, with whichever one you didn't have installed packaged in also, so you could swap it out yourself if you like. 

I chose the 4 direction choice for games such as Pacman,Ladybug or games you just slide left and right on,such as Beamrider or Dreadnaught Factor. 

I use it often because the joystick makes the control awesome.

Obviously its great on a bunch of other games I did not list.

The only real downside is it's not a 16 direction controller,which would be the optimum choice for the Intellivision. 

If one of those were made,I would definitely purchase one for $125. and probably even a little more than that.👍

 

The problem I see with these devices is that they try to be everything to everyone.  If we consider one of these an "action/arcade game controller," then it makes perfect sense for it to support 4 or 8 directions.  Chances are that newer arcade-style games will follow typical modern controller conventions so that would work.

 

However, it may not be optimal for other applications which may require all 16 directions.  For instance, I have oftentimes thought of implementing a simulation of a paddle control on the Intellivision disc:  by sliding your thumb on the disc in a circular motion, and accounting for the time taken between samples of disc positions, you can even compute angular velocity for acceleration.

 

Novel configurations like that take a lot more effort and planning, but should not be discounted off-hand just because nobody thought of doing it in 1982.

 

     -dZ.

[+fdr4prez]

6 hours ago, evg2000 said:

since it's powered it's probably using an Arduino, or another MCU.  It that's true, then just use an analog JS and you can have all 16 directions.

If he is planning on 8-way, he should be doing it this way, so there are only a couple ICs and no Arduino or MCU is needed:

Deathskull Laboratories! - Intellivision Stick Adapter (archive.org)

 

Power consumption will be minimal with those ICs, so a 9v battery should last quite a while.

 

If you are going to use an analog joystick, then you will be needing an Arduino or MCU - like what I am doing for my rebuild of the 25-in-1 using a thumbstick

PS: more news on my project to come soon

 

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

7 hours ago, fdr4prez said:

If he is planning on 8-way, he should be doing it this way, so there are only a couple ICs and no Arduino or MCU is needed:

Deathskull Laboratories! - Intellivision Stick Adapter (archive.org)

 

Power consumption will be minimal with those ICs, so a 9v battery should last quite a while.

 

If you are going to use an analog joystick, then you will be needing an Arduino or MCU - like what I am doing for my rebuild of the 25-in-1 using a thumbstick

PS: more news on my project to come soon

 

 

That already is the way he's doing it though, at least from what he's demonstrated so far.. The Jay Tilton method/circuit (requiring 2 buttons pressed at once in order to get the 3rd working, & an additional 5v PS - a power cable + wall plug from what I saw in his Facebook video). It's just a prototype though and isn't a final design.

 

Sure, that's the easiest, cheapest, most well documented way I suppose, but I was hoping he wouldn't take the easy way out on this by using that method/circuit.

 

He asked if others knew of a different way to go about it, so that's why I mentioned the Grips arcade controller to him and it's advantages:  independent 3rd button via a MCU & single AA battery, or even better, the passive Côté controller via diodes method, so that one doesn't have to press both buttons 1&2 at the same time (which is exactly how Grips other Inty product works: the A2600, SMS, Genesis to Inty controller adapter). Don't get me wrong, it's an awesome adapter, but trying to press two buttons at once can be kind of hit & miss at times, depending on the D-pad used & how heavily a game makes use of that third button.

 

Also, if he went the MCU route, another advantage would be it actually uses less power than other method (around 3v max) with only a couple AA batteries at most, or even one AA via a DC buck converter.

 

I don't mean to keep bringing the Grips arcade controller up, but it has truly worked well for everything I've tried with it.. The 4 or 8 way gate has never been a hindrance and being able to use that 3rd button independently is a huge advantage over the other, simpler circuit. That's why I'm such a big fan of it and was hoping he can come up with something kind of similar.

 

I'm also looking forward to seeing how your controller turns out too and would buy one when it becomes available. 👍

[+fdr4prez]

I am fairly sure that the console pins are floating at 5v, so the gpio on a 3v arduino/MCU may not like them. I am using 5v versions of Arduino and MCU. 

 

As mentioned already, you don't need an Arduino or MCU for three buttons. 

[+fdr4prez]

oh, i see where the 3-button confusion is coming from.  Yes, if you have only two buttons then you need to follow the circuit on the Deathskull page.  So he must be using that circuit.

 

If you have three buttons, then no extra circuit is needed.

 

you simply wire each of button to ground (pin 5) and have each of them going to the needed two pins:

 

Having each button using two diodes going to the needed two pins to keep everything isolated would be helpful, too (as mentioned above).  But may not really be needed since the actual controller doesn't have any diodes in it and these buttons will be basically wired the in the same fashion as the controller.

 

So the only real circuit that is needed is for the 8-way directional circuit.

 

No need for an Arduino or MCU - just get one 7400 Quad NAND gate IC for the 8-way joystick/directions.

 

If you want to use an analog stick to get 16-way, then you will need an adruino or MCU.  

[mr_me]

5 hours ago, fdr4prez said:

...

Having each button using two diodes going to the needed two pins to keep everything isolated would be helpful, too (as mentioned above).  But may not really be needed since the actual controller doesn't have any diodes in it and these buttons will be basically wired the in the same fashion as the controller.

...

In an Intellivision controller each button acts as a DPST switch, so no diodes needed.  Typical arcade buttons are SPST switches and would require two diodes each to act as Intellivision buttons.  The only exception being a one button controller can get away with no diodes.

[Zendocon]

I can only speak for myself here.

 

I had to add a power strip to my current Intellivision hookup, and I just got myself one Longplay controller for Christmas.  It worked, but since I'm currently using an original Intellivision, I could only hook it up to the ECS and try it out with one of the multiplayer games.  In this case, I went with Ultimate Pong.

 

Since FUBAR only requires 8 directions and a single button for the additional players, I could plug this controller into a spare power outlet and the other ECS controller port, and I'd be all set.  Same goes for Ultimate Pong; it only requires 2 directions and a single button for the additional players.

[+fdr4prez]

11 hours ago, mr_me said:

In an Intellivision controller each button acts as a DPST switch, so no diodes needed.  Typical arcade buttons are SPST switches and would require two diodes each to act as Intellivision buttons.  The only exception being a one button controller can get away with no diodes.

Thanks, the SPST buttons are the point I was missing, so diodes are needed. 

 

Overall an 8-way arcade style with 3 side buttons isn't a complicated build, so hopefully he'll move forward with it. 

 

Maybe include a 4-way gate if it is easy to swap out. 

[timdu]

Thank you, everyone, for your input. I have contacted Mike Tarallo, the owner of retrogameboyz.com and I made him aware of this thread.

More to come I am sure...

[timdu]

Mike T. has made some progress on his prototype:

 

One video is on youtube:

 

 

 

He has not moved the second video to youtube as of yet, but it is viewable on his tiktok channel:

 

https://www.tiktok.com/@retrogameboyz.com

 

 

I am looking forward to seeing this be available for sale!

 

Tim

[+fdr4prez]

Some progress? 

 

It looks the same. 

 

Is he planning on doing three separate action buttons? 

[wolfy62]

Oh,he'll yes!!!👍❤️😃

I would love one of these.

I watched both videos and it appears to work great.

As my old disc controllers are wearing or are already worn out, and I am also not a controller repairman,it would be nice to have another option in the future. 

I play my Intellivision almost every day and play in the high score championships also,so for me this is a very welcome sight,especially if I am able to acquire one!

[SiLic0ne t0aD]

Hmmm.. Looks nice, but I'm not a fan of the wart-like battery box thing sticking out of the back. I would think there's surely enough room for a battery somewhere on the bottom or side of the case, accessible with a snap-in door, like most battery powered gadgets.

 

However, that's the least of my worries, as it looks like he didn't budge on the independent 3rd action button dilemma and insists on using the old Jay Tilton 'press 2 buttons to make 3rd work' circuit. What a shame. Sorry, but that's a deal breaker for me. 😕

[vtadave]

13 hours ago, SiLic0ne t0aD said:

Hmmm.. Looks nice, but I'm not a fan of the wart-like battery box thing sticking out of the back. I would think there's surely enough room for a battery somewhere on the bottom or side of the case, accessible with a snap-in door, like most battery powered gadgets.

 

However, that's the least of my worries, as it looks like he didn't budge on the independent 3rd action button dilemma and insists on using the old Jay Tilton 'press 2 buttons to make 3rd work' circuit. What a shame. Sorry, but that's a deal breaker for me. 😕

Deal breaker for me too, though I like the concept.  I found this thread on 3-button games:

 

 

[mr_me]

World Cup Soccer is another cartridge that uses all three side buttons, not mentioned in that thread.  But you really need sixteen directions to play Intellivision soccer properly.