How Do I keep motivated to program for classic computers?

[Frozone212]

Serious question. This is me on a good day:

this is me every other day:

advice?

[+OLD CS1]

"A strange game.  The only winning move is not to play."

[AMSDOS]

I'm assuming BASIC is the language?

 

* Avoid hot days

* Write it Structurally, even though the language isn't structured (makes it easier to debug later if required)

* Use Single commands for each line (i.e. avoid colons ':'), unless they relate

* Use indentation when handling lines within a Loop, well I find this helps readability, those each to their own

* For larger codes, it's easier to print out the code on pages, instead of going back and forth onscreen

 

There's probably more that I cannot think of at this time.

 

[Keatah]

When I was a kid I was curious about getting into the machine and seeing what was hiding in there. Coaxed out all sorts of demo effects on Apple II simply because discovery and exploration. That was motivation enuf for me.

[+OLD CS1]

Pick a platform and get good at it.  Stop bouncing around to another platform before you even understand it or can complete a project on it.  You are trying to be a Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none and it is not helpful to you.  Or anyone else, frankly, as we repeatedly pour our resources into your dead-end endeavors.

 

I mean this with all earnestness: pick a platform, stick with it, learn it, get really good at it, do a couple of projects, then you can take what you learned there to another platform.  Have reasonable goals in mind: you are not going to, on your first time out with no experience, convert a triple-A game to the PET... at least not in the few days it takes you to get frustrated and discouraged. 

 

You may find that while you are learning one platform, another one which holds your interest now makes more sense and you might work better with the other.  I did this with sports: had it not been for me playing soccer and hating it, I might never have started playing hockey.

 

On the other hand, many of us got good at the platforms we had because we lacked the distraction of hundreds of others.  While they may have existed at the time, to us they were just pages in a magazine or an unaffordable option on the K-Mart shelf.  Either way, sometimes you just have to piss with the prick you got.

 

If you have some limiting factor which prevents you from focusing on learning and applying yourself, then maybe you need to accept that programming is not an achievable goal for you, and perhaps you would be better at creating and directing others toward your goal.  There are plenty of people in the world, and we need them, who are not able to translate their mind's eye into reality, but can interface with others who lack the creativity but posses the talent.

[Arnuphis]

2 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

Pick a platform and get good at it.  Stop bouncing around to another platform before you even understand it or can complete a project on it.  You are trying to be a Jack-of-all-trades-master-of-none and it is not helpful to you.  Or anyone else, frankly, as we repeatedly pour our resources into your dead-end endeavors.

 

I mean this with all earnestness: pick a platform, stick with it, learn it, get really good at it, do a couple of projects, then you can take what you learned there to another platform.  Have reasonable goals in mind: you are not going to, on your first time out with no experience, convert a triple-A game to the PET... at least not in the few days it takes you to get frustrated and discouraged. 

 

You may find that while you are learning one platform, another one which holds your interest now makes more sense and you might work better with the other.  I did this with sports: had it not been for me playing soccer and hating it, I might never have started playing hockey.

 

On the other hand, many of us got good at the platforms we had because we lacked the distraction of hundreds of others.  While they may have existed at the time, to us they were just pages in a magazine or an unaffordable option on the K-Mart shelf.  Either way, sometimes you just have to piss with the prick you got.

 

If you have some limiting factor which prevents you from focusing on learning and applying yourself, then maybe you need to accept that programming is not an achievable goal for you, and perhaps you would be better at creating and directing others toward your goal.  There are plenty of people in the world, and we need them, who are not able to translate their mind's eye into reality, but can interface with others who lack the creativity but posses the talent.

Could not agree more. You have been hopping all over the place. Choose one machine and stick with it. Start by programming stuff in basic and then add a little assembly language here and there. Once you are comfortable with it then you can try full assembly. You probably want a machine with a 'friendly' basic and a larger user base for help. Commodore 128, AppleII, Coco etc. Remember that you are doing this for you and for fun. That is the whole point. Realize that you are not going to churn out stuff like Eye of The Beholder in a weekend. It takes months/years of dedication to get to that level. Good luck!

[carlsson]

Also try to learn one segment of code or algorithm at a time. How to read input, how to move an object in a pretty way, how to detect collisions or if it is a text based game, how to efficiently handle input and act upon it. Try to get a program that at least to some extent is working before posting about it asking for help. Check that the files you're about to post, actually are intact and possible to reopen in associated programs and emulators, so we don't have to repair and patch partly broken stuff before we can even give an opinion. Eventually most of us lose interest in what you're posting, which in its turn will lead to you get no feedback and find it even more futile.

[Keatah]

14 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

On the other hand, many of us got good at the platforms we had because we lacked the distraction of hundreds of others.  While they may have existed at the time, to us they were just pages in a magazine or an unaffordable option on the K-Mart shelf.  Either way, sometimes you just have to piss with the prick you got.

This was very much me. I learned two forms of BASIC, TRS-80 on paper and Applesoft/DOS3.3 in practice. To learn any more (which I tried) I found I was too distracted and my limited intellect was spread too thin. As was my time and patience.

 

Too much of anything stops you from going in-depth.

 

14 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

If you have some limiting factor which prevents you from focusing on learning and applying yourself, then maybe you need to accept that programming is not an achievable goal for you, and perhaps you would be better at creating and directing others toward your goal.  There are plenty of people in the world, and we need them, who are not able to translate their mind's eye into reality, but can interface with others who lack the creativity but posses the talent.

I'm a decent recreational and practical programmer. But not a full-blown developer suited to work professionally. But I am good making software fail and getting user interfaces just right. FWIW.

[turbo graphics 220]

I'm motivated by seeing all the awesome demos people release and having my own ideas of what could be possible. Started by hex editing individual instructions in roms since you don't have to deal with disc access then moved onto assembly soon after. Took me awhile to understand the concept of control ports on the z80 but got it just by reading and coding while listening to music or podcasts and watching youtube tutorials. Its super rewarding to think that maybe something is possible and try it and it actually works. I'm am sort of stuck with making my current program, feels like I want to try so many different things of learn the c64 now so I've just got to set aside some time.

[Mr SQL]

BASIC is a very motivational programming language, here's an inspiring video about learning BASIC on the Commodore:

 

 

There is also a motivational BASIC 10 liner programming contest in March every year at http://basic10liner.com 

 

There is Vision BASIC that is fully compatible and extends Commodore BASIC and I am releasing a new BASIC for the C64 presently with graphics commands and Display Lists like the A8 that is compatible with the Atari 2600. Here is an example on the backbit thread.

 

[zylon]

try some of the type-in games, and modify things, and get an idea of how and what happens. Hacking things is a good way to get into programming. There's lots of vintage books of these out there. 

[zylon]

On 1/1/2023 at 7:15 AM, Keatah said:

When I was a kid I was curious about getting into the machine and seeing what was hiding in there. Coaxed out all sorts of demo effects on Apple II simply because discovery and exploration. That was motivation enuf for me.

My only ever class on computers, was Computer Literacy in 1992, and it was almost entirely Apple II/e setups. I finished the class in couple months, but got to stay, if I kept busy. So, I did tons of animated shorts on it. Mostly used GR instead of HGR, and stuck with classic blocky stuff. I even made one working game, that I called Asteroids' Revenge, after hearing that mentioned on "Married With Children". Essentially, the player was the blue square, and crossed the screen horizontally at set speed, using up/down arrow keys to dodge red squares that multiplied with each crossing of the screen. Far as i got, lol.

[+Gemintronic]

Use modern cross platform tools.  No need to code on less convenient native editors.

 

TRSE

https://lemonspawn.com/turbo-rascal-syntax-error-expected-but-begin/

 

uGBASIC

https://ugbasic.iwashere.eu/

 

8-bit Unity

https://8bit-unity.com/

[carlsson]

+1000 for the advice on using cross platform tools! They're no more difficult or cumbersome to get used to, but you get so many benefits like proper editors, source code which you can backup and add version control to, third party tools which lets you include binaries into the code, tools to make emulator images and so on.

[CapitanClassic]

6 hours ago, zylon said:

I finished the class in couple months, but got to stay, if I kept busy. So, I did tons of animated shorts on it. Mostly used GR instead of HGR, and stuck with classic blocky stuff. I even made one working game, that I called Asteroids' Revenge, after hearing that mentioned on "Married With Children". Essentially, the player was the blue square, and crossed the screen horizontally at set speed, using up/down arrow keys to dodge red squares that multiplied with each crossing of the screen. Far as i got, lol.

 

[zylon]

7 minutes ago, CapitanClassic said:

 

If only I had time and backing back then, lol. After school was done, I never did find any II/e stuff, and went back to my C64, as there wasn't much else around to get. Even Atari computers just didn't show up until late 90's, into 00's.

Edited January 9, 2023 by zylon

[Ecernosoft]

On 12/31/2022 at 9:40 PM, Frozone212 said:

Serious question. This is me on a good day:

this is me every other day:

advice?

I know you are trying to be serious here, but this almost made me cry from laughter. It's so relatable, I'm like that too, you're not alone.

 

But when there's the demoscene...... and you can show your skills by pushing the limits..... heck, you might find a way to do something revolutionary!

[Bruce Tomlin]

On 1/1/2023 at 2:23 AM, AMSDOS said:

Use indentation when handling lines within a Loop

If your particular version of BASIC likes to collapse leading blanks, repeat colon+blank at the start of the line for indents. Or just do it anyway because it makes nice dotted lines to connect the start and end of loops.

[k-Pack]

I'm retired and like being away from being told what to do.  Nobody is telling me to program my Atari 8-bit.

 

And....

 

You'll never know how often I've said, "My Atari can do that."  Now it's time for me to prove myself right.

 

And....

 

There is always the fun of watching my friend's eyes get that "dear in the headlights" look as I explain how the latest programing problem was solved.   

[+OLD CS1]

I wrote my first game on the TI-99/4A when I was about nine years-old.  I was complaining about a game I was playing -- I cannot recall if it was a magazine type-in or a commercial game -- and my dad's shop buddy said to me, "Well, if you think you have a better idea, why not write your own game?"  A snarky and trite comment on its face, but I felt challenged and motivated to do it.

 

I wound up writing a simple "jump man" style game in TI BASIC, where you have a guy who has to go from level to level up to the top, jumping over random holes which appear in the girders.  The best part was that I did not think at the time about ways to encode levels into the program, so the game loaded level descriptions from cassette, and I built a simple level editor to create those tape files.  I even worked up an attract mode for the game.

 

It took me several weeks to get working product going, partly because school, home work, chores, Scouts, and getting chased outside.  But I did come up with a game, sloppily programmed as it was, and it met approval.  I spent the next year or so refining it.  Still have the game and its data files on tape around here somewhere.

[potatohead]

5 hours ago, OLD CS1 said:

Still have the game and its data files on tape around here somewhere.

You should make a video or something.  Things we did when we were kids are often fun and interesting to look at.

[potatohead]

Sometimes a little success can be motivating.

 

You could pick small projects and complete them.  Each one will solidify some aspect of programming in your mind.  Soon, you find yourself doing more.

[newtmonkey]

@Frozone212

I seriously suggest learning to code on a modern PC first, just to get the basics and "flow" down.  Programming takes a different mindset than you might be used to, especially when you are trying to make a game.

 

It's not Basic, but I recommend Python to start.  It's a very simple language to learn, and you don't need to do anything other than install the official installer (free) to get started.  Another option is to download an IDE like Visual Studio or Visual Studio Code (also free).  A nice IDE will help you get into the habit of formatting your code properly, and will also provide you with helpful error messages when you make mistakes.

 

Next, pick up a book on Python (or even just find a free tutorial online), and run through the first few lessons to just get an idea of what's involved in writing a program.  The important point is to get an idea of how you need to think about problems like a computer.  If you just try to jump in immediatley to programming on old hardware, you have to deal with all sorts of issues (limited memory, bugs, quirks, getting your code into and out of the old hardware, no modern IDE built-in) just to get started.  You seem to be getting very frustrated quickly, and I think this is why.  You can always revisit old machines once you've got a mind for programming.

 

A good book on Python is "Introducing Python: Modern Computing in Simple Packages" by Bill Lubanovic.  It introduces concepts slowly, is written well, and is a fun read.

Edited January 13, 2023 by newtmonkey

[AMSDOS]

On 1/12/2023 at 11:08 PM, Bruce Tomlin said:

If your particular version of BASIC likes to collapse leading blanks, repeat colon+blank at the start of the line for indents. Or just do it anyway because it makes nice dotted lines to connect the start and end of loops.

Not always possible I understand across all BASIC languages, perhaps a REM might help, though the problem is troubleshooting code, the next best thing is to just keep single statements on each line instead of piling up statements on the same line with colon. 

[Bruce Tomlin]

11 hours ago, AMSDOS said:

instead of piling up statements on the same line with colon. 

Did you even pay attention what I quoted? It was about using leading colons for indentation, not for multiple statements. How do you indent with a REM anyhow?

 

FOR I = 1 TO 10

: FOR J = 1 TO 10

: : PRINT I, J, I+J

: NEXT J

NEXT I

Edited January 14, 2023 by Bruce Tomlin