Last stand of retro lovers?

[Appeelicious]

I found my 8 and 16 but systems later in my younger life. Members of our community are so passionate it's easy to get caught in the wave.

 

Today I read something that hit me the feels. A member mentioned that his family sees his beloved hobby as junk and worries about what will happen to it after he's gone.

 

In our local community we try and get the kids excited about programming and learning on the simpler architecture and we encourage them to adopt our computers. 

 

Does anyone else's local do that sorts of stuff. I want my hobby and passion to outlive me and not just in emulation/FPGA.

 

Just feeling pensive

[+OLD CS1]

I am not concerned that my family would trash my collections out of spite or because they do not value them, but they might feel overwhelmed because they know little to nothing about what I own.  I have provided my attorney, and codified in my will, a list of people and places to contact in the event of my passing, and also advised family members and friends who are friendly to my hobbies.

 

One of the best protections in your absence is alternate guardianship.  That is, someone who can, will, and has the legal authority to step in to take care of your stuff once you are gone.  Name an executor of your estate to make sure your collections go to the right places.  Though, bear in mind that if you die in debt, your estate may have liens placed against it forcing your executor's hand, to sell to places or people which may be undesirable.  A probate court would make those final decisions, but generally a debtor's claim against your estate does not trump your altruistic wishes.

 

Wills can be made free on-line.  I received free will-making software when I purchased Quicken.  Spend the $100 to have a probate attorney review your will and make sure it will stand in your state.  Have life insurance which will cover your debts to protect your assets.

 

You can also create a trust which would gain ownership of your collections.  This becomes a little arduous as every little thing you purchase must be done under the trust or be transferred into the trust.  That way, any personal debt you accrue cannot be claimed against those assets (mind you, states handle trusts differently, so you should retain a trust attorney.)

 

I am in the process of creating a trust in order to curate my collections and upcoming non-profit operations.  Until then, my steps were:

1. Obtain life insurance adequate to cover any debts
   (thankfully, I currently operate debt-free, so the proceeds will be distributed among family^*)
2. Retain an attorney
3. Create a will with attachment detailing how my collections are to be distributed
4. Name a trustworthy executor of my estate^**
5. Keep on living and collecting for a while
6. ???
7. Profit!

* You may or may not want to be more valuable to your family dead than alive.  YMMV.

** This could be difficult and some people may not understand why you are asking them, or not asking them.  Remember to be kind and fair in both the selection and your prescribed process.  I am fortunate in that not only are my parents, SO, and daughter thankful that they would not have to rifle through my stuff to get rid of it, but also my chosen executor has promised, and is bound to, allow my family to make primary claim on stuff which has sentimental value to them.

 

A very important step to take is to make sure you keep everything up-to-date.  You can make some generalizations, e.g. "Commodore 64 computers and associated floppy disks, tapes, and cartridges," but you may need to be specific about some things.  You should be detailed, including items, purchase dates and prices, receipts, &c.

 

If you want more advice on what to do or not to do, talk to anyone who has had to "clean out" a loved one's home after their passing.

 

Good luck, and long life.

 

[jhd]

Kudos on making proper arrangements in advance! My Grandfather left a will when he did in the early-1980s, but it was a convoluted mess. His estate was finally settled some 20 years later. There were bequests to charitable organizations (in another country) that had ceased to exist between when the will was drafted and the final disposition of assets, there were assets that had very significantly depreciated in value (e.g. high-end audio gear) over the intervening decades, etc. The lawyer who drafted it was both unethical and incompetent. 

 

I cannot speak to the law in Florida, but here in Canada, a trust needs to be established for the specific benefit of either an individual or a specific charitable purpose. I do not think it would be possible to transfer one's video game collection into a trust (which would then be owned/controlled by trustees, not the settlor). I am only familiar with establishing trusts for financial assets and real estate.   

 

An alternative solution would be to establish a corporation and transfer the ownership of the game collection to it. This would (arguably) shield the assets from any bankruptcy or other actions for debt. It would also protect the collection from sale or dispersion in the event of the original owner's death. The principle drawback is that there are annual fees for registration and some other legal requirements, so this would require an ongoing expenditure that may become burdensome. 

[+OLD CS1]

2 hours ago, jhd said:

I cannot speak to the law in Florida, but here in Canada, a trust needs to be established for the specific benefit of either an individual or a specific charitable purpose. I do not think it would be possible to transfer one's video game collection into a trust (which would then be owned/controlled by trustees, not the settlor). I am only familiar with establishing trusts for financial assets and real estate.

In my case, I am to set up a "living trust."  My hobby collections will be considered a preservation activity.  This will make me the grantor and in my will I can name a successor.   I am a little confused as to how we will be setting up the trust for my coming non-profit work, but I believe it will be separate from my living trust.

[fiddlepaddle]

No offense intended here, but my response is this; once I'm dead, who cares what happens.

Of course, it's nice to reduce the work required for my heirs to administrate the stuff. Maybe a museum would be nice, but it would need to be able to stand on it's own two feet before that really makes much sense. It's difficult if not impossible that someone else would be as passionate about my collection as I am. Easier to just designate a donation to an existing museum, if they even want it.

I don't really see the video game/8bit era as a historical nexus event much into the future; it will likely fade in public interest as time goes on and it is assimilated into something bigger. But in any case, I won't care one way or the other once I'm gone. Edited January 3, 2023 by fiddlepaddle
I'm referring to both games and computers

[+OLD CS1]

4 hours ago, fiddlepaddle said:

No offense intended here, but

...but, push through it...

 

Anyway, I realized that my answer did not address the only real question in the OP.  I do not know if anyone local to me encourages our kinds of hobbies, but I do know that VCF does, and VCF-SE and the Atlanta Computer Historical Society is close (enough) to me.  I assume there are others out there if I looked, I just am oddly not compelled to engage with anyone locally.

[Keatah]

When it comes the material I have I'm not concerned with what happens to it. It has sentimental value to me and likely no one else. An that is ok. As far as I'm concerned the state can take it all. It's e-waste. However, my digital collection is comprehensive and mirrors the physical stuff and then some. An understatement 2bshur even. Think mirroring portions of Internet Archive, Asimov, a number of other sites, and all my personal creations, musings, and endeavors. Videos, recordings, writings, photos, scans. It's all there and readily accessible to whoever wants to know about me and my hobby (the hobby). Replete with backups and simple easily accessible & available hardware. By its very nature it transcends these kinds of problems. Time capsules are already in places where they'll be appreciated, to be opened on some future undetermined date. If you know how to plug in cables and flip a switch you can learn everything about me and my hobbies.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Keatah

[Keatah]

On 1/2/2023 at 1:46 PM, Appeelicious said:

Does anyone else's local do that sorts of stuff. I want my hobby and passion to outlive me and not just in emulation/FPGA.

Yes. And mostly through emulation. Because original hardware isn't going to last more than a few more generations at best. And current hardware recreations always end up leaving something to be desired, or are specialty niche solutions. Software Emulation and FPGA simulations will last decades more, even if we have to virtualize older OS'es to get emulators running on something like a future 29'th generation Intel i17 or whatever they have in the future - I haven't been there yet.

 

And it's solidly practical because everyone has the hardware and access to such sites as Internet Archive. So why not teach them how to use those resources? The barrier to entry this way is pretty low. Anyone that wants to take a stab at programming an Apple II or Atari 400/800 or C64 can do that. If they want to be tediously and annoyingly authentic, well, then there always is real hardware from a garage sale or ebay. Or someone's estate.

Edited January 4, 2023 by Keatah

[Tuxon86]

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

Yes. And mostly through emulation. Because original hardware isn't going to last more than a few more generations at best. And current hardware recreations always end up leaving something to be desired, or are specialty niche solutions. Software Emulation and FPGA simulations will last decades more, even if we have to virtualize older OS'es to get emulators running on something like a future 29'th generation Intel i17 or whatever they have in the future - I haven't been there yet.

 

And it's solidly practical because everyone has the hardware and access to such sites as Internet Archive. So why not teach them how to use those resources? The barrier to entry this way is pretty low. Anyone that wants to take a stab at programming an Apple II or Atari 400/800 or C64 can do that. If they want to be tediously and annoyingly authentic, well, then there always is real hardware from a garage sale or ebay. Or someone's estate.

Most of what I own is for testing what I code on real hardware and are rarelly fired up, so barring chemical reaction they should last for the time that I need them to. But, when it comes to video games, I prefer emulation with a nice arcade stick at 4k on my 65" TV in my home theater. The retro gaming market is too F$%? up presently that even common carts are going for 5 to 6 time what they're really worth. This is why I sold of most of my consoles last month and built myself some nice arcade stick and got a Launchbox license.

 

Retroarch and Mame for arcade and console gaming and Vice, WinUAE, Altira, Classic99 for programming.

 

As for what will happen to my stuff once I'm dead... I don't really care. I don't have children. I havn't seen my nieces or nephews in the last 20 years, not even a phone call. My brother is 11 years older than me and not in really great shape. In short, even if I wanted to leave it to a relative, there isn't anybody. I'm presently set up via my will so that all my belonging will be liquidated and the resulting money shall be used to:

 

1- In case of my old mother surviving me, that the money should go toward finding her a place to live out her remaining life.

2- Money should be split equally to go to a) SPCA, b) Education for the poor charity, c) War refugee charity.

 

One thing to consider is that the attraction of retro system collecting is highly proportionated to the nostalgia one has for those system, something the younger generations don't or won't have going forth. It may sound depressing, but we ARE a dying breed, just like the coins and stamps collector before us. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[+OLD CS1]

5 hours ago, Tuxon86 said:

One thing to consider is that the attraction of retro system collecting is highly proportionated to the nostalgia one has for those system, something the younger generations don't or won't have going forth. It may sound depressing, but we ARE a dying breed, just like the coins and stamps collector before us.

This is why I advocate sharing this hobby as much as possible, especially with your kids.  My daughter still remembers playing on my Amigas and we talk about them every once in a while.  Had she been more involved, I am certain I would have an A500 or an Amiga Mini in her home.  And when the grandson gets to spend summers with Granddad, you better believe he will have his hands on some stuff.

[Keatah]

7 hours ago, Tuxon86 said:

One thing to consider is that the attraction of retro system collecting is highly proportionated to the nostalgia one has for those system, something the younger generations don't or won't have going forth. It may sound depressing, but we ARE a dying breed, just like the coins and stamps collector before us.

This is correct and true. Introduced nieces to some cutesy games in MAME in the early 2000's. Now. Today. They have an interest in those games and other similar ones.

 

I never got the notion of "having a collection". Oh I did it for sure and all that. I don't think I even thought about a monetary value to it all till the internet told me to! Eeek! I don't think I cared about (big mistake in trying) being a completionist till I saw those walls of carts the internet told me existed. It's why I don't like those big-ass mega-collections filling rooms with stuff that's never going to be played.

 

IMHO much it comes down to bragging and showing off. And not about curating and caring for the sentimental stuff. It's important you maintain that. Then the enjoyment will always be there.

 

And with that I open the question of what propels you forward as a collector?

[Tuxon86]

4 hours ago, Keatah said:

This is correct and true. Introduced nieces to some cutesy games in MAME in the early 2000's. Now. Today. They have an interest in those games and other similar ones.

 

I never got the notion of "having a collection". Oh I did it for sure and all that. I don't think I even thought about a monetary value to it all till the internet told me to! Eeek! I don't think I cared about (big mistake in trying) being a completionist till I saw those walls of carts the internet told me existed. It's why I don't like those big-ass mega-collections filling rooms with stuff that's never going to be played.

 

IMHO much it comes down to bragging and showing off. And not about curating and caring for the sentimental stuff. It's important you maintain that. Then the enjoyment will always be there.

 

And with that I open the question of what propels you forward as a collector?

somebody, somewhere once said that collecting was a modern day alternative to trophy hunting. It’s in our genes, as descendent of hunter-gatherer. Since time immemorial, man has been collecting stuff. What we collect changes with time, but the act of collecting stay.

 

I was introduced to Stamp collecting in the 80’s by a kind man who saw that I was in the process of choosing a wrong path in life. This got me interested in geography, history and art. It also kept me in school. Then I got into computers and gaming. I was poor, so all my software was pirated stuff, which is also a kind of a hunt and trophy collecting. 
 

To answer your question, I guess I’m saying that the thrill of the hunt for that elusive complete set is the major factor in any collecting hobby.

[zylon]

My old stuff is comfy, like that great pair of shoes. A lot of my systems are the original ones I saved and bought for, at moments in my life. They've stuck with me this long, and I return the favor. No one around me had anything, even from the 90's or 00's. To them, my old white non-HDMI 360 is older than they'd have, and my original Xbox and Genesis belong in a museum, items of legend. They don't have a shelf of carts, few have actual game discs, and you won't see racks of LP's or CD's around. Their parents might still have actual DVD's, but little else. My old stuff, has been an intro to a few, about a time and a way before Now. The original stuff won't function forever, but the games themselves, can live on. Quite a few have downloaded retro classics, they've seen me play here at home.

Most don't have the space, or own a place to store such collections, so it's an evolution over time. Mom had a houseful of stuff, that even 1/4 of, would overwhelm and bury me in my 2rm apartment. I sold downsizing, and kept the few setups that really meant something to me, and now emulate the rest. Most around here with a family in same size place, would likely have trouble with collecting one system alone.

Lots of things will pass, and physical collections are just another relic of a time fading. In some cases, it hastens its own decline. Mom had over 4 van loads of gaming stuff in that house, and she lived on dollar store fare, camped in one room, and huddled around a space heater, while the house, car, and health decayed from neglect. I often told her to sell some of the stuff, and pointed out how much better she could be living. She would not, and said "that's for you" because I stood by her, while the other kids fled. She could have sold just one sealed Truxton, and heated the house for a year, or paid to have the yardwork done, which she passed trying to do. 

A few AA members helped me out with unloading the stuff for future sales by them, so it survives. However, I only had 30 days to move it, so only half to a third retail was brought in off it all. She had around a quarter million in stuff.

Edited January 5, 2023 by zylon

[+OLD CS1]

Another thing about the dying breed, I see every so often an influx of people who are getting into these old hobbies because their dad or mom was into it.  It becomes a way to touch the past, to reconnect with their lost parent.  I hear similar at VCF, when Millennials tell me they remember the TI, the Commodore 64, or the Atari 2600 because their dad had one, or they used to play with their parents.  Some who come here just want to experience the memories one last time, to touch their lost parent once again through these marvelous machines.  Others want to completely revive, rejuvenate, rediscover that spark which so captured their lost loved one, to better understand them, to be a more complete part of them.

 

It is a very real phenomenon, and I am happy to support this if I can, even in my absence.  Does it make sense?  No, but so much of the human spirit lacks sense but is ever-lasting.

 

 

[Keatah]

20 hours ago, Tuxon86 said:

But, when it comes to video games, I prefer emulation with a nice arcade stick at 4k on my 65" TV in my home theater.

That's what I do. A couple of X-Arcade tank sticks, and a few other custom controllers of similar quality. A Small Form Factor PC like a NUC or Shuttle XPC, and a contemporary i9. This hardware lets me have a custom layout and an even more custom experience. Full-size cab be damned!

 

20 hours ago, Tuxon86 said:

The retro gaming market is too F$%? up presently that even common carts are going for 5 to 6 time what they're really worth. This is why I sold of most of my consoles last month and built myself some nice arcade stick and got a Launchbox license.

Is it ever. Not only are carts overpriced, but other paraphernalia and peripherals are too. Functioning and tested consoles are just as bad. It's a reason why I don't condone collecting today. And thankfully my choices of systems to collect for have allowed me to sidestep that ripoff. All highly sentimental.

 

Apple II - There's a good supply of new stuff coming out. Both from hardware homebrewers and ongoing archiving activities. I've kept my OG stuff from the 70's and rounded it out over time. With current focus on a slow "background task like" accumulation of spare parts and manuals. It's been a few months since I got any manuals however.

 

PC - It's complete overload! I haven't even played (yet) some of the stuff I purchased in the 90's and dotcom era. And then there are projects I'm slowly working through. With plenty on the to-do list. The amount of stuff out there is just beyond ridiculous thus forcing me to "specialize" and only pay attention to certain favs of certain genres. And not all of it is gaming, but science-y stuff.

 

TRS-80 Pocket Computer and TI-59 - Small "systems" easy to complete.

 

And besides, getting cartridges today isn't the grand experience we had as kids - going to McDonalds, then game shopping, then playing outside and cozying up to the new games as the storms rolled in. Along with an episode of BSG or 6MDM. All with anticipation generated by reading EGM or having seen a TV spot last month.

 

The whole ritual lent a sense of permanence and accomplishment to the games. One that wouldn't be repeated (for me) till the late 1990's as M.A.M.E. brought the old arcade cabs home. And even then it wasn't like a Toys'R'Us or Venture visit.

 

[Keatah]

6 hours ago, zylon said:

My old stuff is comfy, like that great pair of shoes. A lot of my systems are the original ones I saved and bought for, at moments in my life. They've stuck with me this long, and I return the favor.

These are the best. Replacements purchased from ebay are not the same. Replacements for lost or sold hardware seems a little bittersweet or hollow. However..however.. things you wanted as a kid but couldn't afford are different. Those pieces still have potential to have instant nostalgia attached to them.

 

It's that was with the Apple II graphics tablet. I didn't get one till the dotcom era, after the A2 had wound down and we all moved to PC. Getting it in 1998 felt like getting it back in the heyday of 1982. Because I had wanted one so bad, read all the literature, the catalogs, collected pics done on it, imagined using one, and wrote a story about designing a starship hyperdrive on it. So finally getting it was a fresh experience. With all the anticipation and wonder and amazement. And it seemed like the peripheral that kept on giving because some 20 years later I discovered two new software packages for it!

 

Prior to that I had the Koala Pad, and built a set of memories around that peripheral as well. It was affordable and I really got my use out of it. It wasn't quite as exquisite or sophisticated as the AGT. But I wouldn't give up my OG KP without a fight.

 

8 hours ago, Tuxon86 said:

somebody, somewhere once said that collecting was a modern day alternative to trophy hunting. It’s in our genes, as descendent of hunter-gatherer. Since time immemorial, man has been collecting stuff. What we collect changes with time, but the act of collecting stay.

[..]
To answer your question, I guess I’m saying that the thrill of the hunt for that elusive complete set is the major factor in any collecting hobby.

I find that that state of affairs is best handled by digital collecting. It saves on space big-time. And you can maintain a semblance of normality and neatness. You can open up your toy box instantly, work with it, and then put it away just as quickly. Minimize those genetic effects and prevent them from spilling over. You can grow it over time. Mine goes back to the mid-70's with early programs I both studied and wrote. With memories of the early semiconductor industry and the Information Age. A fantastic time to have seen all of it first hand while it was in its infancy. Even better to have learned it while it was learning about itself!

 

As far as a complete set goes. It's extremely important to pick something that is achievable. And if it isn't achievable then it is important to be "at peace" with what you have. This often means setting defined levels, being happy there, and then growing from those. I'm fairly certain I'll never have a complete A2 or PC collection. But that is ok. As long as there is something new to me that's great. I'm fairly certain that when I check the Apple II repositories over the weekend there will be something new.

 

Both A2 & PC deliver in spades and droves on so many levels and in so many directions.

[zylon]

11 hours ago, Keatah said:

These are the best. Replacements purchased from ebay are not the same. Replacements for lost or sold hardware seems a little bittersweet or hollow. However..however.. things you wanted as a kid but couldn't afford are different. Those pieces still have potential to have instant nostalgia attached to them.

 

I kept my 2600 and c64, because I grew up with them. My Sega Genesis, that I bought 25yrs ago, to replace my original that my brothers killed, a modded OG Xbox that I did for Mom, and handful of the 360 consoles, as they'd become a big thing in our lives in the final decade. I also grabbed plenty of spare parts for them. My 5200 was in my house, but I kept a 2-port from the hoard. My usual 5200 is one I found on the ground at a closing flea market, in late 1990's. Seller had quit for the day, and left all the unsold stuff for trash. It took me awhile, but I managed to research, and fix that one up, and it made those same old games new to me again. Y'all likely wouldn't have me on here, without that machine. My only gaming purchases today, are new items for that 5200.

Genesis was always a thing between Mom and I, and she lived on playing Shining Force and others, I did similar on Phantasy Star III. I'd modded an Xbox to include all her faves in one system, for use in the bedroom, instead of her having to camp in living room all night, lol. Later on, when we moved far apart, we still played together via 360 on XBL, with the Sega games disc. We'd have hours long calls discussing strategy, part lineup for different scenarios, and finding bonus items and characters.

Other than some special ones, I sold off all the carts and such, switching to modern SD loader types and multi-carts. Everything else, I emulate on an old Dell XP Lattitude. My XE stuff is all stored, as space limits, along with other stuff that I just couldn't "fire sale".

Edited January 5, 2023 by zylon