BackBit Pro - 7800 + Pokey adapter now available for pre-order!!!

[Trebor]

2 hours ago, SainT said:

Yep, I'd say mine is the "does it all" cart people are waiting for.

 

Features --

Upto 1mb cartridges

All commercial (and some proto such as Fractalus) mappers supported

Break into running games, save and load state or return to menu

Support for megadrive pads, including all 6 buttons, via Mega7800 adapter (also new, coming soon) -- enter break mode by hitting START on the MD pad

BupChip audio support for Rikki and Vikki

Built in support for dual POKEY and YM2151

RGB video and stereo audio out from an AV connector (MD2) on the cartridge itself, PAL and NTSC

Injection molded case

 

Hopefully it will be available this quarter. Just getting down to final testing and also finalising and producing the shell currently.

Are individual adjustable audio levels for the various sound chips still available via software as well under the current firmware?

[SainT]

2 minutes ago, Trebor said:

Are individual adjustable audio levels for the various sound chips still available via software as well under the current firmware?

Yes, as a matter of fact, they are.

 

You just hit the break button, go to volume, then you can adjust each volume level independently.

 

As the TIA audio is also generated on the cart when connecting via the AVOUT connector, you can also control the TIA audio level, too. When using the audio out from the console itself the TIA volume level is naturally not controllable.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Just to get this back on topic, I received my BackBit Pro 7800 adapter yesterday and noticed there was already a newer FW for it to add more support for additional Pokey emulation. The adapter is more early work in progress I'd say vs the other adapters I've purchased in that currently quite a few of the original releases are having issues loading up on my console and I've reported everything to Evie to look into. She seems pretty confident in being able to address the issues. That said... let me give you my initial impressions on this new additional flash cartridge solution for the 7800. 

 

First here are the very positive things about the adapter:

- Very easy to use and navigate menu that first boots up. I don't believe it has any menu customization options yet like some of the other adapters offer so it is a basic menu but it is able to display full filenames of the .A78 files it reads on the SDcard.

- The adapter is well built as are all of Evie's products and the pin spacing of the fingers and thickness of the PCB is excellent

- Plays many of the original released games properly including full pokey audio support for both Ballblazer and Commando. I' have a small video linked at the bottom of this post so you can see and hear it.

- FW updates are very easy like all of Evie's products. Just place the updated FW file on the root of the SD. Boot the cartridge up in your console and it auto updates in seconds and automatically deletes the upgrade file so you don't have to remove it afterwards.

- Quite a few of the homebrew games load up and play which was unexpected such as Bentley's Crystal Quest.

- Possibly the fastest loading flash cartridge that is SD based currently released for the 7800.

 

Now for a list of issues I've encountered or thoughts that I know will be sticking points for many looking to possibly get one of these for themselves for use:

- As I stated, many of the original released games work without issue. But there are also quite a few that do not or will load up but have severe graphical glitching during game play or on main player sprites etc making the games unplayable.

- Many of the games that don't load and just give a black screen type condition are those from Activision such as Double Dragon and Rampage for instance.

- Tower Toppler does NOT load and also presents the same black screen condition.

- Many modern homebrews will also not load or if they do, they might have graphical corruption and most will not play their pokey audio or it isn't correct.

- Currently 2600 supported games are NOT working and result in the same black screen condition. Evie is looking to address this.

 

The biggest issue I see with the adapter currently is one of a physical nature that I know will be a concern for many typical users. In order for the cartridge to work currently, it requires a clip wire to be attached to pin 13 of the 4013 IC to initiate remote resets from the adapter. This is required so that once the backbit loads up the game data, it then resets the 7800 and causes the 7800 to load up the BBPro as that game. The DragonFly does something similar but controls the actual power on/off state of the console to handle this. So what this means is that to use the BBpro adapter on the 7800, it requires you to open up the console, attach the clip wire off the IC chip. You then have to route it back through the case in some manner so that it can then be plugged into the adapter. Evie is looking at trying to find other ways around this, but this is something common to the BBPro adapters on many of the supported consoles including the use of the 2600 adapter. So it isn't too unusual to see it needed here as well. If you look closely in the video below, you can see the wire attached off the adapter on the left side. What I did was to actually solder a length of wire off pin 13 directly and then routed that through with a new dupont male pin connector to plug back into the 7800 BBPro adapter.

 

Again, Evie is aware of these issues with the games and concerns with the reset wire requirement. She is looking for other ways to try and implement the console reset with out requiring the wire but it is kinda of a needed evil to ensure the console is loaded up in a known state for the games to work. 

 

I've also provided Evie with the links to the threads regarding the new Banksets implementation and test roms so that can also be looked into.

Some of the issues with the Pokey audio on home brew games I'm sure is due to the fact that she hasn't implemented support for the Pokey at any other address locations aside from $4000 and $8000. So if home brew devs are willing to work with her on that she has stated she can program additional address support for the Pokey. She just needs support and assistance from the dev community.

 

With all of that said, here is Ballblazer and Commando running on the ITC lab 7800 through the BBpro cartridge with 7800 adapter attached and output via s-video.

 

 

[+x=usr(1536)]

20 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

With all of that said, here is Ballblazer and Commando running on the ITC lab 7800 through the BBpro cartridge with 7800 adapter attached and output via s-video.

Interesting - Commando doesn't display the dots in the score area that the Concerto does.

 

I'm wondering if any of the titles suffering from the 'Horizontal Yars' effect on the Concerto still do that on the BackBit.  Only one I can think of off the top of my head that does it is the Small ROM (Concerto-compatible) version of 1942; it's very visible on the title screen.  There are others with the same behaviour, though.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

30 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

Interesting - Commando doesn't display the dots in the score area that the Concerto does.

 

I'm wondering if any of the titles suffering from the 'Horizontal Yars' effect on the Concerto still do that on the BackBit.  Only one I can think of off the top of my head that does it is the Small ROM (Concerto-compatible) version of 1942; it's very visible on the title screen.  There are others with the same behaviour, though.

None of the modern bank switching schemes work on backbit currently. So 1942 just causes a black screen load or in the case of that 7800 in the video, it will sometimes load up the Kiloparsec game as though it can't detect a game to load up.

 

I will state that both Summer and Winter games will have these odd flickery horizontal lines across the screen during the opening ceremony when they start up. The actual game play screens appeared to be fine for both of those games though.  But you are correct in that the flickery dots near the score on Commando are not present on the BBPro adapter as they are in Concerto. 

 

Tower Toppler did NOT load up on the BBPro adapter and also gave me the black screen, but Alien Brigade did load up and play without any issues. Also, with the exception of Kung Fu Master, I believe all of the Activision 7800 games did NOT load and gave the same black screen condition. While Tank Command and Water Ski both load and play without issues. Of the Absolute released games, I believe only F-18 Hornet was unplayable as it is had corrupted graphics on the title screen and mission select map screen and then would lock up once loading a mission.

 

Again, I've made @evietron aware of all of these issue and more that I encountered and documented of the original released games over in her forums to look into.

 

[SainT]

I've just been running through and testing everything I can get my hands on with the 7800GD. I think everything from the Trebor set runs now, including POKEY, DUAL POKEY, YM2151 and COVOX (with V4 header changes for additional mapper bits) support.

 

Break-in, save state, quick save and quick load also work on virtually all games. There's just a couple which have issues with break in, but they are getting fewer and fewer. I fixed a couple of issues today. All going through final testing at the moment and hopefully into production in a few weeks.

[Shawn]

14 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

 

 

Again, I've made @evietron aware of all of these issue and more that I encountered and documented of the original released games over in her forums to look into.

 

 

Saint's 7800GD is so much more than this thing as far as 7800 specific use goes. Anyone looking for sole use on the 7800 would be ill advised to get this. Dragonfly is awesome if you have one. Concerto still doesn't do what it should years later now, but it's out there and available for sale right now. I just can't see where this has any real value for 7800 specific users over any of the alternatives.

[SainT]

I forgot to add the majority of commercial 2600 titles work also, I've not got as far as getting into testing thoroughly for the 2600 as it's more of an "added extra" feature and there are like a bazillion games. 😆

[+-^CrossBow^-]

4 minutes ago, Shawn said:

 

Saint's 7800GD is so much more than this thing as far as 7800 specific use goes. Anyone looking for sole use on the 7800 would be ill advised to get this. Dragonfly is awesome if you have one. Concerto still doesn't do what it should years later now, but it's out there and available for sale right now. I just can't see where this has any real value for 7800 specific users over any of the alternatives.

Thanks for coming in to crap on my thread about this Shawn... all I'm trying to do is provide more awareness for another alternative that might interest some folks. The BBPro isn't designed for JUST the 7800. It is a multi system flash cartridge that has adapters you can purchase for about $20 each on average to allow this single cartridge to work on over 20 different consoles and computers. There are quite a few owners of the device outside of our forums and quite a few in these forums that might be interested in this.

1 minute ago, SainT said:

I forgot to add the majority of commercial 2600 titles work also, I've not got as far as getting into testing thoroughly for the 2600 as it's more of an "added extra" feature and there are like a bazillion games. 😆

And I'm disappointed with how you too have decided to jump in here and try and divert attention from this device back to yours. And it should be noted that 2600 games were working on the 7800 adapter until a recent FW change to handle the reset function a different way was implemented. She is confident she can get that working again knowing this.

 

And as another point on this... I get it that the 7800GD will do this and much more and I'm sure I'm likely to purchase one myself in time. But it isn't currently available to buy and @SainT still has yet to provide any pricing so I do think that having alternatives like the Concerto, 7800GD, and now BBPro is a good thing as they all have features to likely fit everyone's budgets and what they are mainly interested in and as a result, they ALL have a place in this hobby.

 

[Shawn]

Just now, -^CrossBow^- said:

Thanks for coming in to crap on my thread about this Shawn... all I'm trying to do is provide more awareness for another alternative that might interest some folks. The BBPro isn't designed for JUST the 7800. It is a multi system flash cartridge that has adapters you can purchase for about $20 each on average to allow this single cartridge to work on over 20 different consoles and computers. There are quite a few owners of the device outside of our forums and quite a few in these forums that might be interested in this.

 

 

 You're using this as a commercial for this thing when it's not the be all end all and there are other flat out better devices to spend ones money on. Who cares what it can do other systems when the 7800 is the focus.  This is the 7800 forum and it's being judged against that. I'm glad you like it so much but others who want something for the 7800 are best to spend elsewhere. 

[SainT]

I was asked questions above about the 7800GD and it seemed relevant as I was just looking at what was in question, apologies if this offends. As you have said there are other options available and it will be down to the individual as to what fits their needs.

 

I do not get offended if people suggest the ElCheapo Lynx cart instead of the LynxGD, it's up to the individual to decide on what is appropriate for them. Feel free to have my posts removed if you think them inappropriate.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

2 minutes ago, Shawn said:

 

 You're using this as a commercial for this thing when it's not the be all end all and there are other flat out better devices to spend ones money on. Who cares what it can do other systems when the 7800 is the focus.  This is the 7800 forum and it's being judged against that. I'm glad you like it so much but others who want something for the 7800 are best to spend elsewhere. 

It is no more a commercial for it than for anything else folks talk about in these forums. You would suggest that I not even mention it at all? 

 

Again, I'm just posting for those that might be interested in this. For me personally I like the option and idea of being able to keep a single flash cart like device with quick change adapters so I can use it from console to console pretty quickly and there might be others interested as well.

 

[+Pat Brady]

3 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I've also provided Evie with the links to the threads regarding the new Banksets implementation and test roms so that can also be looked into.

Some of the issues with the Pokey audio on home brew games I'm sure is due to the fact that she hasn't implemented support for the Pokey at any other address locations aside from $4000 and $8000. So if home brew devs are willing to work with her on that she has stated she can program additional address support for the Pokey. She just needs support and assistance from the dev community.

 

I have never heard of POKEY@$8000. $8000 is typically ROM. Did you mean $800?

 

$800 is used in bankset and has some issue with startup due to the BIOS doing something in that space. RevEng and batari are the people to ask about that.

 

POKEY@$450 is common in homebrews that put something else at $4000.

 

The only other thing I'm aware of is double-POKEY, with one at $450 and the other at $440.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

23 minutes ago, Pat Brady said:

 

I have never heard of POKEY@$8000. $8000 is typically ROM. Did you mean $800?

 

$800 is used in bankset and has some issue with startup due to the BIOS doing something in that space. RevEng and batari are the people to ask about that.

 

POKEY@$450 is common in homebrews that put something else at $4000.

 

The only other thing I'm aware of is double-POKEY, with one at $450 and the other at $440.

Yes I likely did mean that. I'm not a programmer and don't pretend to be to I'm sure I had that mixed up. The point I was trying to make is that she only designed it initially for the original released games that used it and it works for those two games. So again if devs let her know the specifics and can provide some sample code for her to work from, then that helps in getting such features added.

 

Some of the double pokey examples did work on it but I'm sure they were missing channels but I would have to listen to them again on my DF cart again to compare. I basically just copied my 7800 rom contents from my DF to the BBPro so I could quickly have a lot to test and check out.

 

As an example when I loaded up the final build of @Muddyfunster's Keystone Koppers, it sounded mostly correct but something still seemed off. I had Lewis listen to it and he think that channel 2 might not be playing so I reported that back to @evietron as something to look into.

 

[SainT]

For examples of pokey use the demos from the Trebor rom set, this includes pokey, dual pokey and ym. There is also a test suite for bankset features, which includes pokey at various addresses here— http://7800.8bitdev.org/index.php/Bankset_Bankswitching.

 

There is also the V3.2/V4 a78 header specification which is needed for support of newer features such as bankset, covox and interrupts on audio devices here— 

 

Edited March 3, 2023 by SainT

[Eagle]

LZSS16 stereo examples, They are not perfect, I'm still working on it.

NTSC friendly  

Cybernoid2.a78 LewyFred.a78

Edited March 3, 2023 by Eagle

[+-^CrossBow^-]

49 minutes ago, SainT said:

For examples of pokey use the demos from the Trebor rom set, this includes pokey, dual pokey and ym. There is also a test suite for bankset features, which includes pokey at various addresses here— http://7800.8bitdev.org/index.php/Bankset_Bankswitching.

 

There is also the V3.2/V4 a78 header specification which is needed for support of newer features such as bankset, covox and interrupts on audio devices here— 

 

Well aware, you might recall I initially provided some of those examples to you well over a year ago through Twitter PMs when you first start looking to add pokey and YM to the 7800GD. Pretty sure I provided something similar to Evie sometime back as well but yes there are lots of examples that can be provided. I know she didn't have any of the newer stuff until recently when I sent her links to those resources.

[SainT]

34 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Well aware, you might recall I initially provided some of those examples to you well over a year ago through Twitter PMs when you first start looking to add pokey and YM to the 7800GD. Pretty sure I provided something similar to Evie sometime back as well but yes there are lots of examples that can be provided. I know she didn't have any of the newer stuff until recently when I sent her links to those resources.

Those are all the examples which I required to get things working, as they cover (I think) all address ranges which the pokey(s) can reside. You mentioned sample code above, so I am just iterating all I needed to get it working as you won’t have been aware what I will have used. And, yes, I am aware you provided some audio examples before, for which I am grateful for. I am always grateful for help, which is why I am stating everything I required to get things working for me. I am always willing to share knowledge and help others where I can. 😄

 

I mention bankset as well, as this not only provides examples of bankset implementation but also pokey at $800. Plus of course the newer header formats which have only recently been agreed upon (V4 at least). The newer headers (V3.2+) are required for some of the interrupt settings, etc, which some audio demos use. The V4 will be used for newer device support going forwards.

 

I was summarising all the information required to get the job done, which is what I thought you were asking for? You don’t need anything else to get dual/pokey fully supported in new hardware.

[+-^CrossBow^-]

3 minutes ago, SainT said:

Those are all the examples which I required to get things working, as they cover (I think) all address ranges which the pokey(s) can reside. You mentioned sample code above, so I am just iterating all I needed to get it working as you won’t have been aware what I will have used. And, yes, I am aware you provided some audio examples before, for which I am grateful for. I am always grateful for help, which is why I am stating everything I required to get things working for me. I am always willing to share knowledge and help others where I can. 😄

 

I mention bankset as well, as this not only provides examples of bankset implementation but also pokey at $800. Plus of course the newer header formats which have only recently been agreed upon (V4 at least). The newer headers (V3.2+) are required for some of the interrupt settings, etc, which some audio demos use. The V4 will be used for newer device support going forwards.

 

I was summarising all the information required to get the job done, which is what I thought you were asking for? You don’t need anything else to get dual/pokey fully supported in new hardware.

Thank you

[Shawn]

22 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

It is no more a commercial for it than for anything else folks talk about in these forums. You would suggest that I not even mention it at all? 

 

Again, I'm just posting for those that might be interested in this. For me personally I like the option and idea of being able to keep a single flash cart like device with quick change adapters so I can use it from console to console pretty quickly and there might be others interested as well.

 

 

The adapters and such being such a high point of this thing would make this much more suited for the classic gaming forum and not the 7800 specific forum then would it not? The catch all for multiple classic systems not Atari specific, just like this device, would make it better suited and probably better received there? This thing is weak on the 7800 side but it can do 7800 stuff. It can do a bunch of stuff for other machines as well with those adapters you keep mentioning so it's multifunction ability would get it more traction there its not gonna get here. Touting it as a 7800 device isn't gonna do much in this section cause it's just not up to snuff VS other current options for the same and lower price points.

[+Pat Brady]

There is only one other currently available option. Regardless, I for one welcome discussion of 7800 hardware, whether it's standalone or an interface to something else.

 

@-^CrossBow^- @evietron — it sounds to me like Evie is/you are aware of all the POKEY addresses. Just to be clear, the list is: $4000, $450, $800, $440 (the last used for stereo paired with $450).

[Eagle]

Dragonfly is using $810 for second Pokey when $800 is used. 

[+x=usr(1536)]

10 hours ago, Shawn said:

The adapters and such being such a high point of this thing would make this much more suited for the classic gaming forum and not the 7800 specific forum then would it not? The catch all for multiple classic systems not Atari specific, just like this device, would make it better suited and probably better received there?

Which makes sense.  Thing is, once the appropriate adapter is attached to the BackBit Pro, it's console-specific.  To my mind, that means it makes sense to discuss its capabilities regarding whichever platform it's configured for in that platform's specific forum.  Granted, if there's a subject that is related to the BBP itself regardless of the system it's configured for, things get a little hazier.  At that point, Classic Gaming may be a more appropriate venue.

10 hours ago, Shawn said:

This thing is weak on the 7800 side but it can do 7800 stuff. It can do a bunch of stuff for other machines as well with those adapters you keep mentioning so it's multifunction ability would get it more traction there its not gonna get here.

On this point, I disagree.  Discussing its capabilities in a forum related to a specific system that the BBP supports makes more sense than talking about it in a sea of conversations about other machines that it supports.  As an example: someone looking for info related to using it with a Vectrex probably doesn't care about the 7800 side of things.  There isn't really a good reason that I can see to toss everything into the same basket.

10 hours ago, Shawn said:

Touting it as a 7800 device isn't gonna do much in this section cause it's just not up to snuff VS other current options for the same and lower price points.

Right now, the only option for the 7800 is the Concerto.  The 7800GD is coming, but it's not here yet and the Dragonfly is a casualty of supply chain shortages.  This is why I say the following as someone who has had a Concerto for the past few years:

 

I've seen more development work take place on the BBP in the roughly three months that I've been aware of it than has happened with the Concerto in my three years of owning one.

 

Sure, the BBP doesn't currently have all of the features of the DF or Concerto.  But neither of those cartridges did either when they came out.  It takes time to develop the featureset, and @evietron has a solid track record in terms of making that happen.  I'm not saying that it hasn't happened with the others, but rather that she is very responsive to both users' needs as well as features she'd like to add.

 

Right now, I'm looking at what's happened with the Concerto and am wondering about how much of a future it may have at this point.  Having choice in potential replacements is a Good Thing™, and, in my specific case, multi-system support would be a huge plus.  Sure, the up-front cost may be higher than the alternatives, but add a second adapter to the order and it's automatically cheaper than buying a second flashcart for another system.

 

Note that I haven't used one of these yet in my own environment, but did get to see one up close and in action a couple of months ago.  I'm holding off on declaring it the be-all, end-all of flashcarts until I can actually use one for an extended period of time (which means I'll eventually put my money where my mouth is and buy one), but it does things that no other one does and, as such, can't really be measured completely by the existing yardsticks.

[evietron]

I prioritize feature requests based on what users request on the BackBit Forum. The higher price point of the 7800 adapter compared to other BackBit adapters is because it has its own CPU. The adapter's firmware is upgraded automatically by the BackBit cart itself.

[Shawn]

58 minutes ago, x=usr(1536) said:

 

I've seen more development work take place on the BBP in the roughly three months that I've been aware of it than has happened with the Concerto in my three years of owning one.

 

Sure, the BBP doesn't currently have all of the features of the DF or Concerto.  But neither of those cartridges did either when they came out. 

 

 

 

 

I agree, the concerto is not what it should be. You won't get an argument from me there. I sold mine out of disappointment over a year ago. I also agree after this long it's future is fare to question as to when or if it will ever be "complete" and able to run all 2600 and 7800 games as it was originally intended to.

 

But the DragonFly sure did have a full-feature set right out of the gate and has even had notable firmware updates. To this day it's the only one out in the public with the Yamaha sound chip going.

 

And the 7800 GD? It blows them all out of the water. I love the dragonfly but it can't be denied that the 7800 GD already shown to be the superior product to all discussed.  This BackBit thing is currently last on the list as a 7800 flash devices go. It just doesn't cut it in it's current offered state and the price point of the device and the 7800 adapter for it makes it currently the most expensive also.

Edited March 5, 2023 by Shawn