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Jaguar Homebrew VS Megadrive / Genesis Homebrew


mdkdue

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14 minutes ago, mdkdue said:

I direct you to my original post for the point of this discussion. 

 

After peoples input i guess the real answer to my question was that its all in the eye of the beholder and down to personal opinion. I also dont remember giving definitive judgments on anything technical, i think i just commented on what the average gamer may think.

 

I would also strongly disagree about being ignorant to the quality of Jaguar homebrews, if i thought they were anything but great why would i invest well over £1000 importing ALL (that are currently available) AtariAge releases here to the UK?. 

 

image.thumb.png.dea797fe6577c6869da94764b2c6ae35.png

 

 

I hope these are more than collection trophies.:) Thanks for supporting Jaguar homebrew! 

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1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

Your opinion is not representing the average gamer, sorry.  I wonder why Jagchris and you are sharing the same misconception about the importance of your very personal views.

 

Jaguar is not for the average gamer to begin with.

I guess thats my point entirely, Jaguar is not for the average gamer, in fact many gamers have never heard of it. 

 

As you have all stated correctly already, there is a MUCH larger user base for the Genesis, and i guess what i am saying is if you ran Last Strike side by side with R-Type and showed it to a lot of them you may find a majority that prefer the look of R-Type.

1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

 

Anyway, we got some nice feedback for "Jumping at Shadows", telling us that it could be confused with a modern indie game running on modern hardware.

 

Gravitic Mines is compared favourably to Gravitar Recharged (PS4, VCS) by many. 

 

We got compliments by professional developers like Mike Mika, LordKraken or the Thrustlander devs for GM and JAS.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

As you should! it looks great. Please understand this has never meant to be an attack on any developers work, i have nothing but respect for everything you do for the community. 

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1 minute ago, agradeneu said:

 

I hope these are more than collection trophies.:) Thanks for supporting Jaguar homebrew! 

Oh yes they have all been carefully opened and played. I am just very OCD with my collection so they all go safety back into their bags afterwards to keep them pristine. Plus i think the AA bags are really nice..proper quality!

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4 hours ago, Zerosquare said:

Try JagChris™'s new formula! It's an armchair developer AND an armchair customer service representative!

 

Word is that Mike Mika bought Gravitic Mines at PRGE directly after he luckely escape the clutches of JagChris. ;-)

Edited by agradeneu
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@mdkdue You would have made a much stronger point by bringing any Thunder force into the discussion.

 

Anyone is entitled to have a preference of course, and the WIP of R-type on Genesis is fine I guess, but really nothing extraordinary so far. So I can see how the comparison with GM can be a bit offending, considering GM is a fully original game, from A to Z.

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1 hour ago, mdkdue said:

 

 

As you have all stated correctly already, there is a MUCH larger user base for the Genesis, and i guess what i am saying is if you ran Last Strike side by side with R-Type and showed it to a lot of them you may find a majority that prefer the look of R-Type.

 

 

I would show the 2nd world. It is beautiful. 

 

The sprite work is done by Dugan Jackson, cult indie designer of TikiPot (AquaKitty Series), 16 bit color, 4 layers of parallax pixel perfect scrolling, CD quality soundtrack. 

 

8:44 min

 

 

 

 

Would be cool to make a R Type on steriods game with that engine. 

 

Edited by agradeneu
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37 minutes ago, LordKraken said:

@mdkdue You would have made a much stronger point by bringing any Thunder force into the discussion.

 

Anyone is entitled to have a preference of course, and the WIP of R-type on Genesis is fine I guess, but really nothing extraordinary so far. So I can see how the comparison with GM can be a bit offending, considering GM is a fully original game, from A to Z.

I assume you mean Last Strike? :) No offence intended at all.

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10 minutes ago, agradeneu said:

 

I would show the 2nd world. It is beautiful. 

 

The sprite work is done by Dugan Jackson, cult indie designer of TikiPot (AquaKitty Series), 16 bit color, 4 layers of parallax pixel perfect scrolling, CD quality soundtrack. 

 

8:44 min

 

 

 

 

Would be cool to make a R Type on steriods game with that engine. 

 

Please make that game :)

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51 minutes ago, mdkdue said:

Exactly my response, Thunderforce is retail not a homebrew release...which is the whole point of this discussion.

Well... r-type is not really a homebrew either. Ok of course it is in the context of this genesis port, but all assets are from an existing professionnal release, and GM in my opinion kicks its ass ;)

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I think your average enthusiast interprets better graphics as overall Konami, Treasure, Capcom spit and polish.  That takes a lot of manpower and money.

 

When we played Atari as kids our thoughts were on fun and new experiences.  I think if we continue to support fun then developers can invest more in "commercial" quality titles.

 

UPDATE:  To be clear providing constructive feedback is as important as spending money.  Gorf Almighty knows I need to hone my skills :)

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Already by the late 80s when R-Type came out and certainly into the 90s with the later Thunder Force releases, you were looking at development teams with multiple artists, and everyone working full-time on 12-18 month development cycles. Equivalent results can be achieved by individuals or one or two people working in their spare time while holding down another job, but the development time will probably be multiple years. But that kind of semi-realistic or painterly pixel art style isn't the only beautiful style individuals can endeavor to work within. Making something beautiful is all about well-conceived planning in art direction, and that always involves imposing limitations. When the limitations include abstraction and strong stylization, the result can be strikingly beautiful, and realistically achievable, by individuals or very small teams in shorter development cycles. Personally I really like the look of games like Geometry Wars and the various Tempest re-imaginings through the years... arguably they could be described with that old, not-exactly-complementary term "programmer art," but the truth is they have really strong art direction. Also, the style is timeless... these games will continue to "hold up" visually even as the cutting edge of photorealism moves forward leaving behind it a wake of games through the years that often look shockingly cruddy in hindsight. I'm not sure if "retro-futuristic" is exactly the right term for this, but it's something along those lines. There's a lot of untapped potential still to explore in that realm of art direction and you won't have to make one single game your life's work just because you're a solo developer or a small team.

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7 hours ago, mdkdue said:

In my opinion, R-type looks far superior, larger sprites, more animation...a very impressive port of the arcade.

 

I totally get that the Jaguar can push more colors, but pushing more colors does not always mean a superior looking game. To my eyes anyway.

 

This is NOT me saying Last Strike looks rubbish/is rubbish...i am just saying that probably to the average gamer if you put it side by side to R-type they would probably say R-type looks superior.

You're not the first one to notice these things and you won't be the last.

 

Quote

As a whole (and as i have stated before i am not privy to all the politics of this board), from the posts i have read my perception of @JagChris is just of someone who clearly enjoys the Jaguar, is interested in this community and likes to participate.

 

Stick around, you'll find out the truth of what's what and who is doing what.

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1 hour ago, JagChris said:

You're not the first one to notice these things and you won't be the last.

 

 

Stick around, you'll find out the truth of what's what and who is doing what.

What truth? You talking nonsense for years, pissing off devs, gaslighting forums,  achieving nothing but trouble?

 

So what are you exactly doing, hm? Show us some work of yours on any hardware that would would make me understand why you have a big mouth all the time.

 

Edited by agradeneu
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3 hours ago, CaptainBreakout said:

I'm considering picking up both Life on Mars (Genesis) and Asteroite (Jaguar).  These two seem to be almost the exact same genera of game (and also happens to be my favorite kind), and are very recent homebrews.

 

Anyone played both?  I'd find comparisons of these two interesting.

Life on Mars seems to be getting mixed reviews.  I would start with Asteroite, although to be fair this is the Jaguar forum. 😁

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10 hours ago, mdkdue said:

 i guess what i am saying is if you ran Last Strike side by side with R-Type and showed it to a lot of them you may find a majority that prefer the look of R-Type.

 

We all still dream of Native.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

Your opinion is not representing the average gamer, sorry. I wonder why Jagchris and you are sharing the same misconception about the importance of your very personal views.

 

This is par for the course with Agradeneu.  Twisting things. What I shared was opinions, good and bad of people I talked to concerning KOE and Asteroite.  They are not my opinions, misconceptions.  If he thinks the potential customers opinions should be treated this way after seeing final products, then maybe crews should think twice about taking him on if sales are a consideration.

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53 minutes ago, JagChris said:

 

We all still dream of Native.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is par for the course with Agradeneu.  Twisting things. What I shared was opinions, good and bad of people I talked to concerning KOE and Asteroite.  They are not my opinions, misconceptions.  If he thinks the potential customers opinions should be treated this way after seeing final products, then maybe crews should think twice about taking him on if sales are a consideration.

Yeah Native is awesome!, I completely forgot about it!. I don’t know how as I have a copy of the demo on cartridge.

 

This definitely surpasses R-type on the Genesis graphically.

 

I wonder if after adding in all the game logic, sound etc it still would have looked as awesome as the demo? I guess we will never know 🤔

 

As for Agradeneu, I know he is incredibly talented, along with all the other Jaguar devs.
I also know I didn’t agree with his treatment of yourself, which I have already addressed so am not going to address again…after that I am not going to comment, it’s not my place. 
 

My takeaway from my interactions with him today is that despite our differences in opinion he seems like a nice guy. So I’m gonna leave it there.
 

 

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3 hours ago, mdkdue said:

Yeah Native is awesome!, I completely forgot about it!. I don’t know how as I have a copy of the demo on cartridge.

 

This definitely surpasses R-type on the Genesis graphically.

 

I wonder if after adding in all the game logic, sound etc it still would have looked as awesome as the demo? I guess we will never know 🤔

Duranik has said that adding those elements and even improving on it wouldn't be a problem with the modern stuff available. I am pretty sure one time they wondered why they didn't include sound with it but remembered they only had a primitive set-up at the time.

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4 hours ago, JagChris said:

Duranik has said that adding those elements and even improving on it wouldn't be a problem with the modern stuff available. I am pretty sure one time they wondered why they didn't include sound with it but remembered they only had a primitive set-up at the time.

IIRC Native was developed using either JagServer or BJL (don't remember which), which basically means that all of the data had to fit within the Jag's 2MB of RAM. In order to fit all of that data and still have enough RAM left over for the game to actually run, the graphics were all compressed, with the DSP being tied up with uncompressing data on the fly throughout the first level, which is why no sound was in that demo. Had they been using an actual development kit (no Skunkboard existed at the time, of course), things would've been a different story. If the Duranik guys come across this, I'm sure they can either confirm this or correct my faulty memory.

 

18 hours ago, mdkdue said:

As you have all stated correctly already, there is a MUCH larger user base for the Genesis, and i guess what i am saying is if you ran Last Strike side by side with R-Type and showed it to a lot of them you may find a majority that prefer the look of R-Type.

You're seriously overselling that Genesis port of R-Type. Outside of using some larger sprites, and with more frames of animation of the player ship, there's little that would be more visually appealing over Last Strike, regardless of the person's viewpoint. Last Strike uses far more colors on-screen, has much faster and smoother scrolling with more layers of parallax and no slowdown, and plays sampled music continuously that simply can't be done with the same detail on the Genesis. Anyone with the tiniest bit of a discerning eye can see this. I'm starting to think you're simply trying to stir up trouble since you're making rather ridiculous claims here.

 

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Too a look at the R-Type port, looks great.

 

Immediately notice a few things:

  • The frame rate is inconsistent (slowdown when the rotating enemy appears)
    • LS is locked to 60fps (NTSC) / 50fps (PAL)
  • The backdrop is something like 4 colours and fades in quite badly (genesis palette limits, I guess)
    • LS has a little bit more colour than this
  • The enemies appear to shuffle along with the scroll, they don't appear locked to it. Looks a bit disjointed.
    • LS is frame locked with no slowdowns.
  • The audio is chip-synth
    • LS in game audio is DJH0ffman. Saying no more.

Not knocking R-Type for any of it for that, as I said, it looks great, and good luck to the dev.

 - But its not doing anything the Strike engine couldn't handle with one arm tied behind its back.

 

Will I make R-Type?

 - Nope. Not gonna pander to the 'now you have to prove it' bollocks.

 

If people think the Jag can do better? then they prove it. Don't demand others do it for them. Cut the speculative, baseless horse shite and implied suggestions that other people have to prove them right or wrong.  All the he said/she said shite is tiresome. 

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