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Heat Sink recommendation for Plus/4 TED chip


oracle_jedi
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Interested to know the brain trusts opinion of the best way to heat sink the TED chip in a Plus/4.

 

Fresh thermal paste and bend the original heat sink tongue down from the RF shield to make a strong contact?

 

Or one of the many third-party ones available online?   

 

And if the latter what size and material is best suited to stop the TED chip from cooking itself to death?

 

In fact same question could be applied to the VIC2 chip in a 64, and the SID chip, and any of the other ICs in an 8-bit Commodore.

 

 

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Following....got a Plus/4 on it's way to me atm, my first ever computer so wanted another, it works apparently but I'm aware of their fragility these days.

 

Not sure how much room is available. Is the RF shield needed? I know people remove them from Amigas these days. Any old cpu heatsink cut to size probably ok with some paste to hold it on, perhaps bit of hot glue?

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Interesting indeed!

 

Bill Herd certainly is an expert, and he is of the opinion that additional heat sinks don't help at all.  And may even do more harm.

 

I do find his argument odd though:

 

"Then there is the effect of heat on chips, put bluntly if heat was a problem the chips would have died their first year. The chips that are left after 35 years are proof that heat isn't an issue." 

 

I am reminded of the old adage:  "It's not the age, its the mileage!".

 

Here in the U.S., in my experience, it is not uncommon at retro shows and gatherings to find Commodore 16s and Plus4s mint-in-the-box.  Cosmetically they look brand new.  Even the boxes show minimal shelfware.  My guess is that most recipients of these machines, back in 1984 or 1985, had asked Santa for a Commodore 64.   The Plus4 probably got used a handful of times, but back in its box, at the back of the closet, and was forgotten about for 40 years.  At PRGE in 2019, one vendor had a stack of C16s, all boxed, all looking pretty fresh.  By contrast I don't think I have ever seen an original 64, "mint in the box" this side of Y2K.   They all got used to the point the cases discolored and cracked, the boxes disintegrated and sometimes the keys fell off.  Same with Apple IIs and Atari 800s.

 

So that the TED chips in these mint machines still work is a testament that the IC thermal management was more than adequate?  Or that it was never really tested in the first place? 

 

With that said Bill is the expert.  I am the enthusiastic amateur.  I'll take his advice and smear some fresh artic silver on the TED, then bend the RF shield tongue down to make a firm contact.  I might slap a copper sink in the 8501 just because I don't think it will hurt.

 

Then I can explore the amazing software conversions done by the Hungarian hackers for this quirky machine.

 

Thanks for the links!

 

 

 

 

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My parents came home with the plus4 one day, no idea why, can only presume the salesman impressed them with the built in programs or some rubbish as it made no sense over a C64, they had no intention to use it! Was still fun though till I saved up to get a 500

 

Reading around there is a new TED replacement which is almost done and you can get cpu converters https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155186961364?hash=item2421dd1bd4:g:S1sAAOSwpOxhGRnN&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoFDOesuYk8NO%2FN39ICjSL2RkjuK8xwadn9NaPVc72fmduWib0szGCWqJKgm5xZ2Q84kwovxbksdd0BZLBHaX%2ByXJBq68pLZa%2F0rTXZ4HtzjwL9JVujXzDZf7sgp52NNHLdeAcC8wwGDTnNXh5Oe0Ov6vW35LB3yxOx7jIbEUnZ3rhgpS%2BGvtL5fJV03vU4FHLInW2CizuJeuiftAY2vpGeA%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-rq9ue7YQ

 

I plan to get a SD2IEC for mine as who has the time for 8 minute loading waits these days lol

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2 hours ago, str0m said:

My parents came home with the plus4 one day, no idea why, can only presume the salesman impressed them with the built in programs or some rubbish as it made no sense over a C64, they had no intention to use it! Was still fun though till I saved up to get a 500

 

Reading around there is a new TED replacement which is almost done and you can get cpu converters https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155186961364?hash=item2421dd1bd4:g:S1sAAOSwpOxhGRnN&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAAoFDOesuYk8NO%2FN39ICjSL2RkjuK8xwadn9NaPVc72fmduWib0szGCWqJKgm5xZ2Q84kwovxbksdd0BZLBHaX%2ByXJBq68pLZa%2F0rTXZ4HtzjwL9JVujXzDZf7sgp52NNHLdeAcC8wwGDTnNXh5Oe0Ov6vW35LB3yxOx7jIbEUnZ3rhgpS%2BGvtL5fJV03vU4FHLInW2CizuJeuiftAY2vpGeA%3D|tkp%3ABk9SR-rq9ue7YQ

 

I plan to get a SD2IEC for mine as who has the time for 8 minute loading waits these days lol


It would be great if this solution could be made to work reliably in 8501 mode so that dirt cheap 6502:s could be used for CPU replacement instead on 6510:s

https://github.com/monotech/MOS_CPU_Replacer

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I don't know how much Plus/4 Or C16 testing it's been through. Maybe not that much?

The known problem on the C16 indicates some incompatibility that may well cause issues of varying magnitude on other titles too and that might not surface until more people start using them.

I don't have any TED computers myself but I need to build me one of those CPU replacers for a couple of C64:s missing their 6510:s.

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Not a Plus/4 but this is generally how I handle heat sinks on the old machines when the chips produce enough heat to warrant it.  It's longer generic heat sink stock cut down to size, attached with good thermal tape.

 

I ditched the massive top shield in this 128 when installing the Lumafix.

 

image.thumb.jpeg.f0dc2a131e8f0b8fb5321f33cb493cf5.jpeg

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1 hour ago, remowilliams said:

Not a Plus/4 but this is generally how I handle heat sinks on the old machines when the chips produce enough heat to warrant it.  It's longer generic heat sink stock cut down to size, attached with good thermal tape.

 

I ditched the massive top shield in this 128 when installing the Lumafix.

 

 

 

What tool do you need to cut the heat sinks down to size?

 

 

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7 hours ago, str0m said:

 

 

I plan to get a SD2IEC for mine as who has the time for 8 minute loading waits these days lol

 

I have a very old SD2IEC which I adapted to power off the user port, and I use with the Plus/4.  For simple PRG files it is fine.

 

I am noticing that a lot of the D64 images downloaded from http://plus4world.powweb.com/ need something that can better emulate a genuine 1541.  

 

I have an Utimate II+, but as I expect you know, it wont plug into the Plus/4.  So I have the 64 being a disk-drive for the Plus/4 for those images.

 

The Infocom games, Mercenary, Flight Simulator II and Corruption so far have all needed the Ultimate II+ 1541 emulation to work.

 

 

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29 minutes ago, oracle_jedi said:

What tool do you need to cut the heat sinks down to size?

 

I have heatsink stock of various widths, so I only cut them for length.  For that I usually use the Dremel and a cutoff wheel, I've also used a jigsaw with a metal blade at times.

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16 hours ago, oracle_jedi said:

 

I have a very old SD2IEC which I adapted to power off the user port, and I use with the Plus/4.  For simple PRG files it is fine.

 

I am noticing that a lot of the D64 images downloaded from http://plus4world.powweb.com/ need something that can better emulate a genuine 1541.  

 

I have an Utimate II+, but as I expect you know, it wont plug into the Plus/4.  So I have the 64 being a disk-drive for the Plus/4 for those images.

 

The Infocom games, Mercenary, Flight Simulator II and Corruption so far have all needed the Ultimate II+ 1541 emulation to work.

 

 

Can you update yours? I was planning on buying from here, it's a V5 whatever that difference is.... there is a link to firmware at the bottom, that might improve compatability, it does say it works with D64 but I guess there might still be ones which don't work

 

https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/sd2iec-sm.html

Edited by str0m
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7 hours ago, str0m said:

Can you update yours? I was planning on buying from here, it's a V5 whatever that difference is.... there is a link to firmware at the bottom, that might improve compatability, it does say it works with D64 but I guess there might still be ones which don't work

 

https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/sd2iec-sm.html

Good question!   Not sure.   My SD2IECs are pretty old.  I think I bought them from Jim Brain back in 2008 or 2009.   


I was looking to see if there was a list of fixes/enhancements of the different firmware but didn't see it yet.... 

 

 

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8 hours ago, str0m said:

...it's a V5 whatever that difference is.... there is a link to firmware at the bottom, that might improve compatability, it does say it works with D64 but I guess there might still be ones which don't work

 

https://www.thefuturewas8bit.com/sd2iec-sm.html

The PCB for that SD2IEC is v5.  However, the firmware for that SD2IEC seems to be 0.10.3, the latest firmware that works with .D64/.D71/.D81's.

Truly,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan

April 15-16 Commodore Los Angeles Super Show 2023 - http://www.portcommodore.com/class

Edited by RobertB
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1 hour ago, oracle_jedi said:

My SD2IECs are pretty old.  I think I bought them from Jim Brain back in 2008 or 2009.   


I was looking to see if there was a list of fixes/enhancements of the different firmware but didn't see it yet....

 

Oh, if your SD2IEC's have not been updated, then they are very old.  You're using firmware anywhere from 0.6 to 0.8.1.  See https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/sd2iec_(firmware)

 

Truly,

Robert Bernardo

Fresno Commodore User Group - http://www.dickestel.com/fcug.htm

Southern California Commodore & Amiga Network - http://www.portcommodore.com/sccan

April 15-16 Commodore Los Angeles Super Show 2023 - http://www.portcommodore.com/class

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18 minutes ago, RobertB said:

Oh, if your SD2IEC's have not been updated, then they are very old.  You're using firmware anywhere from 0.6 to 0.8.1.  See https://www.c64-wiki.com/wiki/sd2iec_(firmware)

 

 

 

Is there a way from CBM BASIC to interrogate the SD2IEC to report the firmware version?

 

 

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