Mac emulation on the ST

[macsonny]

What's the trick to making floppies that have the Mac system software on them that will run on the Atari ST?

[+eebuckeye]

I would like one if any left please when you are finished.

[t0ri]

6 hours ago, macsonny said:

What's the trick to making floppies that have the Mac system software on them that will run on the Atari ST?

Hi macsonny,

 

This is the point. I tried to use some software from MagicSAC+ package for Atari but this didn't work for me I had some errors when I tried to format diskettes using MCFORMAT.PRG and get nothing as result - bad FDD or something else? Maybe you'll have more luck! The problem is also that I have not been able to find the user's manual for this emulator.

After starting emulator - it is waiting for diskette with Finder(?) and rest of Apple OS in drive A. It seems that we need diskettes in MAGIC format and at last Mac BOOT disk in this format.

 

Anyway - please try to run the whole thing to completion.

 

tOri

Edited February 6, 2023 by t0ri
added some text

[+Philsan]

I quickly tested Spectre GCR.

I managed to make a System 6 disk with my Macintosh SE and I found that when ? appears, I have to press F1, then Atari loads System 6 disk.

Now I am waiting System 6 disks set to do more tests.

[ojanhk]

32 minutes ago, t0ri said:

Hi macsonny,

 

This is the point. I tried to use some software from MagicSAC+ package for Atari but this didn't work for me I had some errors when I tried to format diskettes using MCFORMAT.PRG and get nothing as result - bad FDD or something else? Maybe you'll have more luck! The problem is also that I have not been able to find the user's manual for this emulator.

After starting emulator - it is waiting for diskette with Finder(?) and rest of Apple OS in drive A. It seems that we need diskettes in MAGIC format and at last Mac BOOT disk in this format.

 

Anyway - please try to run the whole thing to completion.

 

tOri

Did you try the Mac floppy ? I have a few old Macs, I will check tomorrow if something can be done directly there. 

[t0ri]

Hi ojanhk,

 

It won't work for sure because Mac GCR disks can't be read by standard Atari FDD. MagicSAC+ needs diskettes in special MAGIC format created by Dave Small...

 

-> Philsan - Spectre GCR is other thing...

 

tOri

Edited February 6, 2023 by t0ri

[macsonny]

13 hours ago, ojanhk said:

Did you try the Mac floppy ? I have a few old Macs, I will check tomorrow if something can be done directly there. 

How did you go. I have about 10 old Macs (Mac Plus, SE, SE/30) and can easily make 800k floppies with System 6.0.8 installed. Did that work for you? If it did - I'll include a boot floppy with every MagicSac+ I build just to get people started.

[macsonny]

13 hours ago, t0ri said:

Hi ojanhk,

 

It won't work for sure because Mac GCR disks can't be read by standard Atari FDD. MagicSAC+ needs diskettes in special MAGIC format created by Dave Small...

 

-> Philsan - Spectre GCR is other thing...

 

tOri

Surely there was software included with the MagicSac+ hardware that allowed people to make their own boot floppies? 

[macsonny]

Does this help? http://www.oocities.org/clu-da-bard/spectreatari.html

 

[Goochman]

Just curious why choose MagicSac+?  I was clearly inferior to Spectre and didnt work as well.  Just curious what I am missing?  Did MagicSac produce an update which was as good or better than Spectre BITD?

[t0ri]

10 hours ago, macsonny said:

Surely there was software included with the MagicSac+ hardware that allowed people to make their own boot floppies? 

Should be. I think it is MCFORMAT.PRG but as I wrote - it didn't work for me well

 

tOri

[macsonny]

7 hours ago, Goochman said:

Just curious why choose MagicSac+?  I was clearly inferior to Spectre and didnt work as well.  Just curious what I am missing?  Did MagicSac produce an update which was as good or better than Spectre BITD?

I agree I would have rather done a Spectre but they don't have their boards in the public domain so I can't recreate them. The MagicSac was put into the public domain and hence I could recreate the boards. Simple as that. If someone knows if the Spectre PCB files are around then I'm happy to go down that path too.

[macsonny]

1 hour ago, t0ri said:

Should be. I think it is MCFORMAT.PRG but as I wrote - it didn't work for me well

 

tOri

I'll give that a try when my final parts arrive.

[t0ri]

Hi,

 

Fingers crossed

Anyway - I have Spectre GCR and I will try to recreate device in future. I am working on ICD AdSCSI interface(s) now and my timeslots aren't free.

 

tOri

[ojanhk]

12 hours ago, macsonny said:

How did you go. I have about 10 old Macs (Mac Plus, SE, SE/30) and can easily make 800k floppies with System 6.0.8 installed. Did that work for you? If it did - I'll include a boot floppy with every MagicSac+ I build just to get people started.

Sorry, the day has been complicated and I didn’t find time to test the software on Atari and Macintosh. Did you grab it from Atarimania (or other source) ?

[DaveMacBlack]

Ahoj kluci, chci se s vámi podělit o můj dosavadní úkol při zprovoznění MagicSAC+ (protože nemluvím moc dobře anglicky a text pochází z mých špatných znalostí s malou pomocí překladatele, předem se omlouvám všem anglofilům).

 

Nejprve chci poděkovat tOrimu za jeho nezměrnou aktivitu při záchraně vzácných historických kusů počítačového hardwarového příslušenství ATARI.

 

Vyrobil jsem svůj MagicSAC+ nedlouho poté, co tOri vydal Gerbers (s tím, že někteří čekají na dodání z JLCPCB, samozřejmě) a od té doby se snažím, aby to fungovalo.

 
Nejprve jsem hledal na internetu, jestli někde nenajdu originální dokumentaci, ale našel jsem jen pár stránek popisujících zařízení, ale nic o jeho nastavení a provozu. Z různých zdrojů jsem získal dvě verze softwaru - 3.6 a 4.2. Verze 3.6 má všechny nástroje pro práci s disketami v TOSu, verze 4.2 již používá GEM a je klikatelným RSC, až na aplikaci MRECEIVE (zmíním se o ní později), která je stejná jako ve verzi 3.6 a má vlastní verzi 3.00. Také jsem našel obrázky disket systému Macintosh a podařilo se mi je přenést na fyzické médium pomocí příkazu dd. Bohužel bootování z těchto médií v MagicSACu nefungovalo. Později jsem někde četl, že kvůli HW rozdílům mezi ATARI a MAC disketovými mechanikami to není možné, a proto byl vytvořen speciální formát Magic floppy. K vytvoření diskety ve formátu Magic používá MagicSAC MFORMAT. TOS (v.3.6) nebo MCFORMAT. PRG (4.2). Zkusil jsem tedy disketu naformátovat tímto způsobem, pro své experimenty jsem použil integrovanou disketovou mechaniku na STFM (A) a externě připojenou klasickou PC HD mechaniku (B) v kombinaci s různými verzemi formátovacího nástroje a disketovými kapacitami (400kb a 800kb). Téměř všechny pokusy byly neúspěšné, fungovalo pouze formátování verze z 3.6 v integrovaném disku a uspěl jsem pouze jednou na jedné zbrusu nové HD disketě. Takže teď mám jednu prázdnou disketu formátu Magic.

 

 

 

Pravděpodobně existuje pouze jeden způsob, jak zapsat systémové soubory OS na takto připravenou disketu - mít po ruce skutečný Macintosh, na kterém musíte spustit aplikaci Transfer z druhé diskety projektového softwaru MagicSAC, připojit Macintosh a ST sériovým kabelem (který byl dodán v původním balíčku MagicSAC) a spustit aplikaci MRECEIVE na ST, který zapíše soubory z diskety vložené do disketové jednotky v systému Macintosh na disketu formátu Magic. A tady je problém - nemohl jsem nikde najít druhý MagicSAC - Macintosh Transfer Disk (viz přiložený obrázek z Atarimanie). Pokud bych měl k dispozici tuto druhou disketu, mohl bych zkusit přenést systémové soubory bez skutečného Macintoshe, např. z nějakého emulátoru (Basilisk II) a pak vytvořit obraz diskety, např. přes Greaseweazle, aby mohl být snadno replikován a dostupný ostatním uživatelům repliky MagicSAC.

 

 

 

Edited February 8, 2023 by DaveMacBlack

[Tillek]

14 hours ago, DaveMacBlack said:

Ahoj kluci, chci se s vámi podělit o můj dosavadní úkol při zprovoznění MagicSAC+ (protože nemluvím moc dobře anglicky a text pochází z mých špatných znalostí s malou pomocí překladatele, předem se omlouvám všem anglofilům).

 

Nejprve chci poděkovat tOrimu za jeho nezměrnou aktivitu při záchraně vzácných historických kusů počítačového hardwarového příslušenství ATARI.

 

Vyrobil jsem svůj MagicSAC+ nedlouho poté, co tOri vydal Gerbers (s tím, že někteří čekají na dodání z JLCPCB, samozřejmě) a od té doby se snažím, aby to fungovalo.

 
Nejprve jsem hledal na internetu, jestli někde nenajdu originální dokumentaci, ale našel jsem jen pár stránek popisujících zařízení, ale nic o jeho nastavení a provozu. Z různých zdrojů jsem získal dvě verze softwaru - 3.6 a 4.2. Verze 3.6 má všechny nástroje pro práci s disketami v TOSu, verze 4.2 již používá GEM a je klikatelným RSC, až na aplikaci MRECEIVE (zmíním se o ní později), která je stejná jako ve verzi 3.6 a má vlastní verzi 3.00. Také jsem našel obrázky disket systému Macintosh a podařilo se mi je přenést na fyzické médium pomocí příkazu dd. Bohužel bootování z těchto médií v MagicSACu nefungovalo. Později jsem někde četl, že kvůli HW rozdílům mezi ATARI a MAC disketovými mechanikami to není možné, a proto byl vytvořen speciální formát Magic floppy. K vytvoření diskety ve formátu Magic používá MagicSAC MFORMAT. TOS (v.3.6) nebo MCFORMAT. PRG (4.2). Zkusil jsem tedy disketu naformátovat tímto způsobem, pro své experimenty jsem použil integrovanou disketovou mechaniku na STFM (A) a externě připojenou klasickou PC HD mechaniku (B) v kombinaci s různými verzemi formátovacího nástroje a disketovými kapacitami (400kb a 800kb). Téměř všechny pokusy byly neúspěšné, fungovalo pouze formátování verze z 3.6 v integrovaném disku a uspěl jsem pouze jednou na jedné zbrusu nové HD disketě. Takže teď mám jednu prázdnou disketu formátu Magic.

 

 

 

Pravděpodobně existuje pouze jeden způsob, jak zapsat systémové soubory OS na takto připravenou disketu - mít po ruce skutečný Macintosh, na kterém musíte spustit aplikaci Transfer z druhé diskety projektového softwaru MagicSAC, připojit Macintosh a ST sériovým kabelem (který byl dodán v původním balíčku MagicSAC) a spustit aplikaci MRECEIVE na ST, který zapíše soubory z diskety vložené do disketové jednotky v systému Macintosh na disketu formátu Magic. A tady je problém - nemohl jsem nikde najít druhý MagicSAC - Macintosh Transfer Disk (viz přiložený obrázek z Atarimanie). Pokud bych měl k dispozici tuto druhou disketu, mohl bych zkusit přenést systémové soubory bez skutečného Macintoshe, např. z nějakého emulátoru (Basilisk II) a pak vytvořit obraz diskety, např. přes Greaseweazle, aby mohl být snadno replikován a dostupný ostatním uživatelům repliky MagicSAC.

 

 

 

I see what you mean... I wonder if actually buying disks pre-formatted for Mac might be a better way to go?

 

(Google Translate)

Chápu, co tím myslíš... Zajímalo by mě, jestli by vlastně nákup disků předem naformátovaných pro Mac mohl být lepší způsob?

 

[Tillek]

(Google translate from Checz if you're lost).

 

Hey guys, I want to share with you my task so far in getting MagicSAC+ up and running (since I don't speak English very well and the text comes from my poor knowledge with a little help from a translator, apologies in advance to all Anglophiles).

 

First of all, I want to thank tOri for his immeasurable activity in saving rare historical pieces of ATARI computer hardware accessories.

I made my MagicSAC+ not long after tOri released the Gerbers (with some waiting to be delivered from JLCPCB, of course) and have been trying to get it working ever since.

First I searched the internet to see if I could find the original documentation somewhere, but I only found a few pages describing the device, but nothing about its setup and operation. I got two versions of the software from different sources - 3.6 and 4.2. Version 3.6 has all the floppy tools in TOS, version 4.2 already uses GEM and is a clickable RSC, except for MRECEIVE (I'll mention it later) which is the same as version 3.6 and has its own version 3.00. I also found Macintosh floppy disk images and was able to transfer them to physical media using the dd command. Unfortunately, booting from these media did not work in MagicSAC. Later I read somewhere that due to HW differences between ATARI and MAC floppy drives this is not possible and therefore a special Magic floppy format was created. MagicSAC uses MFORMAT to create a Magic format diskette. TOS (v.3.6) or MCFORMAT. PRG (4.2). So I tried to format the disk in this way, for my experiments I used the integrated disk drive on the STFM (A) and an externally connected classic PC HD drive (B) in combination with different versions of the format tool and disk capacities (400kb and 800kb). Almost all attempts were unsuccessful, only formatting the version from 3.6 in the integrated disk worked, and I only succeeded once on a brand new HD disk. So now I have one blank Magic diskette.

There is probably only one way to write the OS system files to a diskette prepared in this way - to have a real Macintosh at hand, on which you need to run the Transfer application from the second MagicSAC project software diskette, connect the Macintosh and ST with a serial cable (which was supplied in the original MagicSAC package) and run the MRECEIVE application on the ST, which will write the files from the diskette inserted in the Macintosh diskette drive to a Magic-format diskette. And here's the problem - I couldn't find the second MagicSAC - Macintosh Transfer Disk anywhere (see attached image from Atarimania). If I had this second disk available, I could try transferring the system files without a real Macintosh, eg from some emulator (Basilisk II) and then create an image of the disk, eg via Greaseweazle, so that it can be easily replicated and made available to other users of the MagicSAC replica .

 

[macsonny]

2 hours ago, Tillek said:

(Google translate from Checz if you're lost).

 

Hey guys, I want to share with you my task so far in getting MagicSAC+ up and running (since I don't speak English very well and the text comes from my poor knowledge with a little help from a translator, apologies in advance to all Anglophiles).

 

First of all, I want to thank tOri for his immeasurable activity in saving rare historical pieces of ATARI computer hardware accessories.

I made my MagicSAC+ not long after tOri released the Gerbers (with some waiting to be delivered from JLCPCB, of course) and have been trying to get it working ever since.

First I searched the internet to see if I could find the original documentation somewhere, but I only found a few pages describing the device, but nothing about its setup and operation. I got two versions of the software from different sources - 3.6 and 4.2. Version 3.6 has all the floppy tools in TOS, version 4.2 already uses GEM and is a clickable RSC, except for MRECEIVE (I'll mention it later) which is the same as version 3.6 and has its own version 3.00. I also found Macintosh floppy disk images and was able to transfer them to physical media using the dd command. Unfortunately, booting from these media did not work in MagicSAC. Later I read somewhere that due to HW differences between ATARI and MAC floppy drives this is not possible and therefore a special Magic floppy format was created. MagicSAC uses MFORMAT to create a Magic format diskette. TOS (v.3.6) or MCFORMAT. PRG (4.2). So I tried to format the disk in this way, for my experiments I used the integrated disk drive on the STFM (A) and an externally connected classic PC HD drive (B) in combination with different versions of the format tool and disk capacities (400kb and 800kb). Almost all attempts were unsuccessful, only formatting the version from 3.6 in the integrated disk worked, and I only succeeded once on a brand new HD disk. So now I have one blank Magic diskette.

There is probably only one way to write the OS system files to a diskette prepared in this way - to have a real Macintosh at hand, on which you need to run the Transfer application from the second MagicSAC project software diskette, connect the Macintosh and ST with a serial cable (which was supplied in the original MagicSAC package) and run the MRECEIVE application on the ST, which will write the files from the diskette inserted in the Macintosh diskette drive to a Magic-format diskette. And here's the problem - I couldn't find the second MagicSAC - Macintosh Transfer Disk anywhere (see attached image from Atarimania). If I had this second disk available, I could try transferring the system files without a real Macintosh, eg from some emulator (Basilisk II) and then create an image of the disk, eg via Greaseweazle, so that it can be easily replicated and made available to other users of the MagicSAC replica .

 

So just trying to understand something. If format a 800k floppy on my Mac Plus, place System 6.0.8 on the floppy will it work with my Atari/MagicSac combination or does the floppy need some other format?

 

Alternatively, if I format the 800k floppy in my Atari with the MagicSac software, will that floppy work in my Mac Plus so I can get the System 6.0.8 software onto the floppy that way?

 

Which way works?

Edited February 9, 2023 by macsonny

[DaveMacBlack]

2 hours ago, macsonny said:

So just trying to understand something. If format a 800k floppy on my Mac Plus, place System 6.0.8 on the floppy will it work with my Atari/MagicSac combination or does the floppy need some other format?

 

Alternatively, if I format the 800k floppy in my Atari with the MagicSac software, will that floppy work in my Mac Plus so I can get the System 6.0.8 software onto the floppy that way?

 

Which way works?

Once again I apologize for my "confused" English translations, I will try to write more simply.

 

Unfortunately, neither path is correct.

 

MagicSAC+ only works with Magic diskettes formatted with MFORMAT.TOS (3.6) or MCFORMAT.PRG (4.2) on ST.

The only way is to format the diskette in ST, connect the ST with a serial cable to the Mac and transfer the contents of the boot diskette with the MRECEIVE.TOS (ST) and TRANSMIT applications from Macintosh Trasfer Disk (Mac).

 

Diskettes created in this way can be copied on ST using MCOPYAA.TOS / MCOPYAB.TOS (3.6) and MCCOPY1.PRG / MCCOPY2.PRG (4.2).

[macsonny]

5 minutes ago, DaveMacBlack said:

Once again I apologize for my "confused" English translations, I will try to write more simply.

 

Unfortunately, neither path is correct.

 

MagicSAC+ only works with Magic diskettes formatted with MFORMAT.TOS (3.6) or MCFORMAT.PRG (4.2) on ST.

The only way is to format the diskette in ST, connect the ST with a serial cable to the Mac and transfer the contents of the boot diskette with the MRECEIVE.TOS (ST) and TRANSMIT applications from Macintosh Trasfer Disk (Mac).

 

Diskettes created in this way can be copied on ST using MCOPYAA.TOS / MCOPYAB.TOS (3.6) and MCCOPY1.PRG / MCCOPY2.PRG (4.2).

Please, no apologies necessary.

 

So does anyone know the pinout for the serial cable as I can make and test them providing I know the pins?

[DaveMacBlack]

10 minutes ago, macsonny said:

Please, no apologies necessary.

 

So does anyone know the pinout for the serial cable as I can make and test them providing I know the pins?

I assume it could be a standard serial cable.

Unfortunately, my quest to connect the cable from the MagicSAC+ package has been unsuccessful so far. I don't know what serial port connector your Mac has, but I found a page with connection options:

https://www.grace.umd.edu/~zben/mac/MacSerHard.html

 

But Macitosh Trasport Disk is still missing.

[macsonny]

22 minutes ago, DaveMacBlack said:

I assume it could be a standard serial cable.

Unfortunately, my quest to connect the cable from the MagicSAC+ package has been unsuccessful so far. I don't know what serial port connector your Mac has, but I found a page with connection options:

https://www.grace.umd.edu/~zben/mac/MacSerHard.html

 

But Macitosh Trasport Disk is still missing.

I bet it's just a simple serial connection between the Mac and the ST. I found this picture of the MagicSac and it's clear it's a Mac 9 pin serial (found on Mac Plus) to Atari serial. I'm guessing it might need to be a null modem so something like the attached image?

 

Just reading a bit more, I bet the "Transport Disk" is just something like a Modem applications to transfer a file from Mac to Atari ST over null modem cable?

 

Do you have a screen shot of the file transfer application running just on THE Atari ST?

 

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by macsonny

[macsonny]

Look what I managed to snag on eBay. That's a major part of the problem solved. I collect when I'm in the US next week. Also bought all the parts to build the serial cable. Progress!!!!

 

 

[DaveMacBlack]

4 hours ago, macsonny said:

Look what I managed to snag on eBay. That's a major part of the problem solved. I collect when I'm in the US next week. Also bought all the parts to build the serial cable. Progress!!!!

 

 

Great news, fingers crossed!