PS4 is almost 10 years old

[roots.genoa]

10 hours ago, zzip said:

some PC players will say "everything is better with a keyboard and mouse" but I hard disagree there.

I agree with you except MOST PC players claim that, not "some". I admit the mouse is very quick and effective, although I don't think it's that comfortable (something a lot of people don't take into account) and a stylus for instance is even lighter. Metroid Hunters on the DS was not comfortable at all to say the least, but I was a lot better at that game than at any FPS with a mouse. 😎

But there's no redeeming qualities for the keyboard imho. It was never designed to play video games (except Typing of the Dead); that's a FACT. And since I have small hands, playing an action game with a keyboard is a nightmare for me - literal when I bend on the side instead of running away in a survival horror game because pressing CTRL with my little finger makes my index shift a little. 😬

[Lostdragon]

11 hours ago, dudeguy said:

Id be willing to buy all your retro games you no longer have any use for

I'm in the UK. 

 

Have a lot of DC, GBA games to get shot of 

[Steven Pendleton]

  

18 hours ago, zzip said:

Only a small portion of the PS4 library is ported from PS3

There are also plenty of ports from Vita and 360 as well.

 

56 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

But there's no redeeming qualities for the keyboard imho.

Find me any digital input device that offers both the precision and customization of the keyboard.

 

Wait, that's right, you can't because it doesn't exist. Keyboard is factually superior to all other forms of digital input. You can easily make incorrect inputs with D-pads and arcade controllers. With keyboard, the chances of this greatly decrease, and since you can put anything anywhere you want, you have a ridiculous amount of freedom that no other controller gives you.

 

If you really need analog movement, that's what this thing is for

 

 

  

11 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

I've never seen a game running PROPERLY on PC, without either frame drops, vertical syncing tearing, lag, sound artifacts, crashes, etc.

In that case you've never seen a game running properly on consoles, either, as they do the same thing, especially since they can't run games anywhere near as well as PC can. ALL systems drop frames, have screen tearing, and all of those other problems. I've even seen Game Boy games with screen tearing.

 

 

lol this is getting really off-topic and it is definitely my fault. PS4 exists or something. Yay, I guess. *goes back to watching Star Trek TNG BDs on PS4. Next episode is Silicon Avatar, not that anyone cares*

Edited February 8 by Steven Pendleton

[Ninjabba]

12 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

Oh thank God, I'm not alone. I always hear people say PC is where you get games at 60fps but even though I saw (old) games even running at 90-120fps on PC, I've never seen a game running PROPERLY on PC, without either frame drops, vertical syncing tearing, lag, sound artifacts, crashes, etc. That's why I always preferred playing on consoles.

Also boot disks were an abomination, and even more in France where we had to use a QWERTY layout to save some memory. 😬

To be fair, my $3000 desktop will outperform pretty much anything PS4 and probably the PS5, but since its for work I will not pollute it with games and their silly requirements. And this is the one thing that makes me wonder why PC gamers are so quick to say consoles are crap.

I can buy a cluster of PS4s including screens to match my one PC, so by those numbers the PS4 MUST be more fun to play with.

 

I have no time to fix games to work at a proper fps/resolution, right now I even prefer the Switch over the PS4 because of how quick I can start playing a game.

12 hours ago, zzip said:

I know some PC players will say "everything is better with a keyboard and mouse" but I hard disagree there.

Now that I'm dealing with carpal tunnel I can honestly say I'm happy to hold a controller over mouse/keyboard any day. I stopped playing shooters and RTS games a long time ago so I guess I'm not missing out much in terms of accurate aiming and timing.

[roots.genoa]

2 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

Find me any digital input device that offers both the precision and customization of the keyboard.

If it's at the detriment of comfort, I really don't see the point. Also to me it doesn't offer as customization as an Elite controller for instance. You can customize the software, not the hardware. Removing two keys to swap them won't switch them for real, you know. 🙄 It's still a huge block with a hundred too many keys.

[Steven Pendleton]

8 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

If it's at the detriment of comfort, I really don't see the point. Also to me it doesn't offer as customization as an Elite controller for instance. You can customize the software, not the hardware. Removing two keys to swap them won't switch them for real, you know. 🙄 It's still a huge block with a hundred too many keys.

You don't need to physically move keys around because you can simply remap them to wherever you want them to be. The fact that there are so many keys is an advantage, as you can put whatever you want wherever you want it to be to suit your hands or your preferences or anything else. It's the ultimate lazy person controller. It's also the ultimate controller in general when used together with the mouse. Keyboard is the best. I'm considering buying this thing to replace the 1P side stick on my Astro City: https://ja.aliexpress.com/item/1005003734926077.html?gatewayAdapt=glo2jpn

 

It might be a problem once I get a Tatsujin Ou PCB since that game does really weird shit when you input opposite directions at once, but I guess I can just play on 2P side if I need to.

[zzip]

 

6 hours ago, roots.genoa said:

But there's no redeeming qualities for the keyboard imho. It was never designed to play video games (except Typing of the Dead); that's a FACT. And since I have small hands, playing an action game with a keyboard is a nightmare for me - literal when I bend on the side instead of running away in a survival horror game because pressing CTRL with my little finger makes my index shift a little. 😬

I can deal with the arrow keys for some games, but I cannot stand the WASD control scheme most games use.   I'm too often hitting the adjacent keys because I'm watching the screen not the keyboard.   But if you're right-handed, you can't really used the arrow keys for movement and mouse too, can you?  That's an awkward setup, so I get why WASD became standard.   I pair a controller with PC whenever I can for action-type games,  but that's not always a seamless experience either.

 

6 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

There are also plenty of ports from Vita and 360 as well.

Yeah, and?   There's also Genesis games, Arcade games, NES games, Atari games in in Playstation store.   It's still a minority of the games available,  and Steam has all these things too, so what's the point here?

 

6 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

In that case you've never seen a game running properly on consoles, either, as they do the same thing, especially since they can't run games anywhere near as well as PC can. ALL systems drop frames, have screen tearing, and all of those other problems. I've even seen Game Boy games with screen tearing.

I see it far more on PC.   Every console has the same hardware so games ship out of the box with reasonable performance settings.   On PC I'll often run into stuttering and start having to experiment with settings to make it go away.   Sometimes you can't fix it with the in game settings and have to make edits to files instead.   Even having a high-end video card won't necessarily spare you.  I've seen plenty of people with high-end video cards complain about poor performance with certain games.  And these will be games that run on consoles with no issues.

 

5 hours ago, Ninjabba said:

To be fair, my $3000 desktop will outperform pretty much anything PS4 and probably the PS5, but since its for work I will not pollute it with games and their silly requirements. And this is the one thing that makes me wonder why PC gamers are so quick to say consoles are crap.

Because those PC players are looking at raw performance only.  They discount things like ergonomics, quality of life, etc where consoles excel.    

They're kind of like car guys bragging about their high-performance sports cars loaded up with aftermarket parts sneering at sedan and SUV owning 'peasants',  ignoring that those 'peasant' cars are far more practical for most drivers.

 

4 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

The fact that there are so many keys is an advantage, as you can put whatever you want wherever you want it to be to suit your hands or your preferences or anything else. It's the ultimate lazy person controller.

Not necessarily.   A good input becomes an extension of your hands that you can use without thinking about.  Modern game controllers are the result of decades of refinement.   Buttons are placed far apart from each other with different shapes and feel so that you can use it entirely without looking.   Similarly a keyboard is optimized for typing,  nothing else.   A good typeset can churn out many words per minute without ever stopping to think where individual letter keys are.   But having so many keys crowded together makes it less than optimal for gaming because it's so easy to press the wrong keys by mistake -  most of the keys have the same shape and feel the same.         Remapping keys to suite your preferences means doing that for every game and is yet more of the "extra configuration" that comes with PC gaming that people buy consoles to get away from

[MrMaddog]

19 minutes ago, zzip said:

 

I can deal with the arrow keys for some games, but I cannot stand the WASD control scheme most games use.   I'm too often hitting the adjacent keys because I'm watching the screen not the keyboard.   But if you're right-handed, you can't really used the arrow keys for movement and mouse too, can you?  That's an awkward setup, so I get why WASD became standard.   
 

[...]

 

Not necessarily.   A good input becomes an extension of your hands that you can use without thinking about.  Modern game controllers are the result of decades of refinement.   Buttons are placed far apart from each other with different shapes and feel so that you can use it entirely without looking.   Similarly a keyboard is optimized for typing,  nothing else.   A good typeset can churn out many words per minute without ever stopping to think where individual letter keys are.   But having so many keys crowded together makes it less than optimal for gaming because it's so easy to press the wrong keys by mistake -  most of the keys have the same shape and feel the same.         Remapping keys to suite your preferences means doing that for every game and is yet more of the "extra configuration" that comes with PC gaming that people buy consoles to get away from

 

My "bias" towards PC gaming, as far as First Person Shooters go, is that I get more precise aiming with the mouse than I could with an analog thumbstick.  And this is like about 25 years of gaming so that's what I'm used to.  I can play FPS games with an Xbox 360 (and onward) controller but I do much better using "spammy" weapons like shotguns.  I tried to play a tactical shooter like Rainbow Six: Vegas on a 360 once and I just couldn't do it. 

 

I also felt the same way about using arrow keys instead of WASD and would always remap the keys for earlier games like Quake & Unreal Tournament, but recent console ports have way too many keys to be remapping so I had to adapt to using WASD when I got my recent keyboard.

 

Quote

I pair a controller with PC whenever I can for action-type games,  but that's not always a seamless experience either.

 

Yeah, and?   There's also Genesis games, Arcade games, NES games, Atari games in in Playstation store.   It's still a minority of the games available,  and Steam has all these things too, so what's the point here?

 

I also use gamepads for non-FPS games, one for modern console ports (Xbox One) and another for emulators and fighting games (Horta Fightpad).  No shame in that...

 

Quote

I see it far more on PC.   Every console has the same hardware so games ship out of the box with reasonable performance settings.   On PC I'll often run into stuttering and start having to experiment with settings to make it go away.   Sometimes you can't fix it with the in game settings and have to make edits to files instead.   Even having a high-end video card won't necessarily spare you.  I've seen plenty of people with high-end video cards complain about poor performance with certain games.  And these will be games that run on consoles with no issues.

 

Because having the biggest and baddest video card won't help you if the so-called PC game is an unoptimized console port that was released to meet a quick deadline.

 

There may have been a time back in the 90's where PC games were "better" than console games mainly because they were different types of games running on different hardware.

 

But thanks to the Xbox the PC games became ports of existing Xbox titles, devs actually believed that a game that was made specifically for Microsoft's console can run on any PC because of DirectX...nevermind there are still different hardware configrations to deal with.  And yes, all the config crap is part of the PC gaming experience.  No wonder why console gaming is so much easier!

 

And even now Steam is flooded with "console kids" who review bomb games that they couldn't get running on their daddy's laptop cause they expect Alienware like performance.  Because PC games are suppose to be "better", right?

 

Quote

Because those PC players are looking at raw performance only.  They discount things like ergonomics, quality of life, etc where consoles excel.    

They're kind of like car guys bragging about their high-performance sports cars loaded up with aftermarket parts sneering at sedan and SUV owning 'peasants',  ignoring that those 'peasant' cars are far more practical for most drivers.

 

The so-called "PC Master Race" with their potato laptops; they're like those young kids who drive Japanese imported cars thinking they can be hot shot racers just like in the movies, but the only mods they did were putting on racing decals...

 

I'm always gonna be a PC gamer after all the decades of investment, but I also have an Xbox console I use as an extension to my gaming experience (I can stream games from one to the other).  Only thing I can't do with that setup is play the current Japanese games that are only released for the PS4/5 and Switch, so I have to get one of them to play those types of games.

 

(Still waiting for a price drop though...)

 

[Keatah]

1 hour ago, zzip said:

Not necessarily.   A good input becomes an extension of your hands that you can use without thinking about.  Modern game controllers are the result of decades of refinement.   Buttons are placed far apart from each other with different shapes and feel so that you can use it entirely without looking.   Similarly a keyboard is optimized for typing,  nothing else. 

I wouldn't play any PC game without a scissors keyboard. The short throw makes for easy rapid fire and instant response.

[Flojomojo]

I recently moved my PS4 into my office and have been messing around with some old games over lunch sometimes. It feels 10 years old to me, since many of the big hits have appeared on Switch and PC, often at bargain prices. Looking at the way my interest in PS4 dropped off over the years has kept me from rushing out and getting a PS5, which is literally more of the same. 

What I really want: Playstation One, Two, Vita, and PSP games on Switch (we already have a lot of PS3 and PS4 era third party ports on there)

[Flojomojo]

On 2/4/2023 at 4:10 PM, Razzie.P said:

Not me.  Why would anyone feel triggered by that?   Because people still get brand new games on the PS4 (odd thing to get triggered over) or because its staying power was twice as long as the 4-5 years you're used to (which again, seems an odd thing to get triggered over)?

 

Or triggered because time moves on and things age?  If that's the case, it must really suck being triggered all the time.

Heh this was pretty provocative!

 

10 years is the gap between 1985 (gaming seemed all but dead) and the 1995 Sony Playstation North American launch, which seems like a long time

 

10 years is also the gap between Wii being easy to find in stores (2007, a year after launch), and the launch of Nintendo Switch (2017)

 

I'm OK with long console cycles, too. Make the upgrade worth it. Will this be the year I put off upgrading my iPhone for more than 2 years? That would be something. 

[zzip]

1 hour ago, MrMaddog said:

Because having the biggest and baddest video card won't help you if the so-called PC game is an unoptimized console port that was released to meet a quick deadline.

That's a perfect example of the difference between the PC utopia the 'PC Master Race' guys talk about and PC reality.   You spend all that money on GPU thinking you are always going to get the best gaming experience possible and the developers pour cold water all over it with poorly optimized releases.

 

1 hour ago, MrMaddog said:

There may have been a time back in the 90's where PC games were "better" than console games mainly because they were different types of games running on different hardware.

 

Yeah a lot of games from that era started on PC and got ported to consoles if they existed on console at all.   I don't remember performance being a big issue at the time.    I think the early 3D hardware era of late 90s/early 2000s is when things went to hell and getting games to run at all on PC started to become a chore.    That was when I stopped buying PC games for several years  because I got sick of all the issues.   

 

 

[roots.genoa]

9 hours ago, Steven Pendleton said:

you can simply remap them to wherever you want them to be

But they are still next to each other, unless you remove some keys.

[Pink]

22 hours ago, Flojomojo said:

Heh this was pretty provocative!

 

10 years is the gap between 1985 (gaming seemed all but dead) and the 1995 Sony Playstation North American launch, which seems like a long time

 

10 years is also the gap between Wii being easy to find in stores (2007, a year after launch), and the launch of Nintendo Switch (2017)

 

I'm OK with long console cycles, too. Make the upgrade worth it. Will this be the year I put off upgrading my iPhone for more than 2 years? That would be something. 

I paid my 24 month iPhone 11 financing plan off months & months ago and have offers from Verizon to upgrade for free to the newest ones and I haven't even bothered. I used to not only upgrade my phone every year but follow the new iPhone & new Samsung phones religiously every year and was always anticipating new features & improvements. Now that I feel like i'm getting old and the technology has vastly stagnated, I've become too lazy and don't see any need to upgrade every year or 2 now.

 

That being said it's probably better to upgrade when I still trade my old one in and get the new one for free or extremely reduced, rather then waiting til my iPhone being so old that they'll give you nothing for it, or very, very little next to nothing.

[zzip]

1 hour ago, Pink said:

I paid my 24 month iPhone 11 financing plan off months & months ago and have offers from Verizon to upgrade for free to the newest ones and I haven't even bothered. I used to not only upgrade my phone every year but follow the new iPhone & new Samsung phones religiously every year and was always anticipating new features & improvements. Now that I feel like i'm getting old and the technology has vastly stagnated, I've become too lazy and don't see any need to upgrade every year or 2 now.

It used to be that my phones would be too slow, battery would run out too quick, not have enough storage etc.   That would make me count down the days before I could upgrade.   But now my S10 is several years old,  doesn't have those problems,  takes great photos.  There's no benefit to increasing the screen resolution at this size (in fact my S10 (1080p) has a lower resolution than my previous S7 (1440p) and I cannot tell the difference at all.

 

It's also gotten to the point where you start losing features by upgrading-  bye bye headphone jack,  so long replaceable battery.   So I'm in no rush to get a new model.

Edited February 9 by zzip

[+Razzie.P]

I'm really impressed by how many side paths this thread has taken in less than 2 full pages. 😁

[+Razzie.P]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:46 AM, Lostdragon said:

Never been happier and can see myself getting out of gaming for good, as the missus hates gaming. 

 

 

Time to pour one out for a fallen homie...

 

[Keatah]

43 minutes ago, zzip said:

It's also gotten to the point where you start losing features by upgrading-  bye bye headphone jack,  so long replaceable battery.   So I'm in no rush to get a new model.

Yes. It's a reason I tend to be upgrade & change averse. The changes tend to remove previous functionality - why they (anyone) does that I'm not sure. Could be some misplaced and misguided need to feel progressive in the name of over-enthusiastically pursuing a design language. Because it has the potential to look good in a boardroom presentation. Or simply the need to make something look sleeker. Could be a physical product's interface or and overall appearance. Making the changes to make it so it looks good in advertisements. Remove that earphone jack because it disrupts a clean line with an ugly hole. Fuck and piss and shit all over that. I'm not buying an ad photo.

 

Same thing applies to OS'es. The more functional an OS is the less artsy-fartsy its UI is. Think Linux. If you see something slick and streamlined, be prepared to do a lot more multi-directional scrolling. I'm not interested in buying a series of pretty screenshots to paste on my den's walls. Also seems that as OS'es evolve there's more hoops to jump through, they're just not as technical in nature. A simple example might be whitespace expansion, seems every change of something requires you to do more work to move the content around to see it all. Indentations are uneven, fonts and sizes change too much, all in the name of some apparently upscale UI design shit ass fucking crappage.

 

Make no mistake I like modern electronics, just not their implementation and style. So trashily cheap.

[zzip]

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

Making the changes to make it so it looks good in advertisements. Remove that earphone jack because it disrupts a clean line with an ugly hole. Fuck and piss and shit all over that. I'm not buying an ad photo.

Because it's 3.5mm.  3.5!   How are they supposed to get down to 1 mm width phones (that snap in half in your pocket when you sit down) when they have to support such bulky legacy ports!  The horror!   Remember these are the people who found the USB-mini port to be too bulky at 3mm tall, and replaced it with USB-micro at 1.8mm!

 

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

Same thing applies to OS'es. The more functional an OS is the less artsy-fartsy its UI is. Think Linux. If you see something slick and streamlined, be prepared to do a lot more multi-directional scrolling. I'm not interested in buying a series of pretty screenshots to paste on my den's walls. Also seems that as OS'es evolve there's more hoops to jump through, they're just not as technical in nature. 

The UI design trend I hate most is the tendancy to make everything white or pale gray so there's not a lot of contrast.    For example if you look at a Win95 screen, there is a lot of contrast, you can easily tell where the buttons are, where one window ends and another begins,  the gray is a very different shade than the white.

 

But modern UI design seems to try to make everything as white as possible (or black if you use dark mode), and there's not a lot of contrast between window panes and widgets,  many buttons blend in with the background and don't become visible until you mouse over them,  some window borders are non-existant and if you overlay them with other windows, you can't easily see where one application ends and another begins.  Definitely slickness at the cost of usability .

 

1 hour ago, Keatah said:

simple example might be whitespace expansion, seems every change of something requires you to do more work to move the content around to see it all.

Oh yeah,  remember how we used to be able to work in the office on a single 14" monitors with 1024x768 resolution?   I wonder how we got by like that,  I now have two 25" 1080p monitors and I can't ever make everything fit,  and no matter how big our screen space gets, the need to scroll around to see everything never goes away, does it?

Edited February 9 by zzip

[dudeguy]

On 2/8/2023 at 4:44 PM, Lostdragon said:

I'm in the UK. 

 

Have a lot of DC, GBA games to get shot of 

I want them.

[Lostdragon]

15 hours ago, dudeguy said:

I want them.

It'll be a while before I can go through all the boxes, currently in storage at my mums, but I'll do a write up and pm you. 

[Flojomojo]

On 2/9/2023 at 12:27 PM, Pink said:

I paid my 24 month iPhone 11 financing plan off months & months ago and have offers from Verizon to upgrade for free to the newest ones and I haven't even bothered. I used to not only upgrade my phone every year but follow the new iPhone & new Samsung phones religiously every year and was always anticipating new features & improvements. Now that I feel like i'm getting old and the technology has vastly stagnated, I've become too lazy and don't see any need to upgrade every year or 2 now.

 

That being said it's probably better to upgrade when I still trade my old one in and get the new one for free or extremely reduced, rather then waiting til my iPhone being so old that they'll give you nothing for it, or very, very little next to nothing.

The OLED screens are standard now, and once you get used to them, the LCD in the iPhone 11 looks pretty janky. But if you DON'T look at the new stuff, it's perfectly fine! That's how I am with the non-120Hz screen on my 13. You'll need a new battery eventually but the 11 is probably good for at least another year, longer if you don't care. 

 

I go back and forth between "trade it in while it's worth something" and "hang on to it and avoid the cost of a new thing." Honestly, it's probably a wash, and you save a bit more money by holding out. The difference is just a hundred bucks or so either way, it's not like wasting money on a car lease. 

 

What was the topic again? Oh yeah, PS4. I got a Steam Deck instead of a PS5, since all I wanted to play on the new thing was the cat game and Spider-Man sequels, both of which are on PC. It's cool that Sony is putting its big games on PC now. I will resist the impulse to read too much into that, other than the fact that Sony likes money.