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No love for Arcade 1up..


skaredmask

Arcade 1up  

25 members have voted

  1. 1. Arcade 1up

    • yes..
      11
    • No..
      14

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@Keatah@Cynicaster Yes and yes, that's how I think too, and he's right.  90% of it is the game itself, not the enclosure, specifically if the enclosures moving bits or display parts jack up the ability of the game to run correctly.  If I'm going in on an item that sells upwards of $100 into the hundreds, cheapo build vs original quality or not, I damn well expect the controls and display to respond right so my ability to play isn't compromised as that's the utter deal breaker.  But hey if I'm going in on a $5-30 item, I'm willing to take some jank or off set play if the spirit of it all is still there and it doesn't have hard core faults.  Just today I found one of those creditcard dimension micro player handhelds for $10 at a half price(new) of the orignal run of Pac-Man.  Gameplay wise, if you're not someone who can break the table or at least know the ghost logic by heart it's a lot of fun, it works, the audio is beepy shit more like a tiger handheld, but hey...it gets the job done, and even that one controls right ...unlike the a1up barcade I had which didn't.  That in itself is even more disgusting in perspective.

 

The funny thing is the $10 toy is a recreation, no roms at that price, that usually happens at the $20-30 level(for NES ports, and $50+ for arcade.)  Yet that recreation at least gets the control better than the other which is pathetic.

 

Final Burn Alpha may not be 100% accurate, but damn it's 99% there as far as I feel about it in relation to NeoGeo.  Maybe a lot can't make the claim, it's fair, but *I* do own a 2 slot MVS cabinet and a few dozen games for it.  I damn well know if my roms vs my dumped roms on FBA aren't behaving.  They behave.  They behave on here(PC) and also the android version sitting on my anbernic 351p too I picked up last year locally...that speaks volumes to me on the quality being more than enough.  Maybe if I was some Daigo level SF2 crazy I'd point all the millisecond level jacked up timings or maybe I'd notice one off key note or a color or pixel out of place, but at that level...you're just being an anally retentive asshole seeking for any excuse to whine.

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1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

Maybe if I was some Daigo level SF2 crazy I'd point all the millisecond level jacked up timings or maybe I'd notice one off key note or a color or pixel out of place, but at that level...you're just being an anally retentive asshole seeking for any excuse to whine.

I hear that kinda shit all the time and it makes me laugh.

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On 2/15/2023 at 2:56 PM, Tanooki said:

Mind you I had the 2nd or 3rd gen Galaga/Galaga 88 unit last year as a new open box product I found locally, which is one of those tabletop barcade sized units when I say this, but they're not great.  At least, that one wasn't, which is why I don't have it now.  

Oh my, I actually forgot I own one of those before this mention. Yes, that one's absolutely terrible. I got it when walmart.com was selling them for $50 with free shipping. I had thought that its smaller scale would work well with the thickness of the cabinet material a1up uses, which it does, but in just about every other way it's really bad.

 

I suppose it's okay for general 'arcade ambiance' but I already have a little sound generator for that.

Edited by Reaperman
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 I just got to add this..... I think it's funny how people think the arcade version of said game is so much better than what arcade 1 up offer. I went to many arcades in the 80's-90's and almost none of the original cabinets had no original parts or buttons and junk installed to keep them going. that includes PCB's and other things..

 

 Arcade cabinets were cheaply made and mass produced like arcade 1up.. I find the durability to be to be questionable since most cabs where tossed if not up graded. I do have an original Mario bros cab that was transferred to and Aliens cab and the build quilty is almost exactly the same as arcade 1up.. basically the monitor brackets hold the hole Cab together.. just like arcade 1up.. Nintendo spent a lot of money to convert their Radar scope arcade games to popeye/ Donkey Kong arcade games..

 

 The point if thread is to see When good enough if is good enough.. we can compare actually arcade machines to arcade 1up all day.. yes we will find somethings better and worst... but when is good enough good enough? I have the midway defender cab from arcade 1up and joust plays like joust with minimal lag and I the remember that game like a T'. and it's so close to the arcade version that I can't really tell the difference beside a CRT and yeah maybe better buttons on occasion.. but the cost of an Arcade 1up is so much different than a true arcade ( Almost $1000's ) when dose Arcade 1up holds up on its own merits?

 

 I never played root beer tapper in defender in the arcade.. I was surprised to see that root beer taper and defender dose have an option to change the controls to more like the way I remember it.. (Ive only played defender on the 2600) see that controller option changed the hole game for me than the thrust and reverse buttons for me.. Also root beer tapper was nice to see using the second joystick to use as tap button vs just bottom press button to fill and sever..

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6 minutes ago, skaredmask said:

 I just got to add this..... I think it's funny how people think the arcade version of said game is so much better than what arcade 1 up offer. I went to many arcades in the 80's-90's and almost none of the original cabinets had no original parts or buttons and junk installed to keep them going. that includes PCB's and other things..

 

 Arcade cabinets were cheaply made and mass produced like arcade 1up.. I find the durability to be to be questionable since most cabs where tossed if not up graded. I do have an original Mario bros cab that was transferred to and Aliens cab and the build quilty is almost exactly the same as arcade 1up.. basically the monitor brackets hold the hole Cab together.. just like arcade 1up.. Nintendo spent a lot of money to convert their Radar scope arcade games to popeye/ Donkey Kong arcade games..

 

 The point if thread is to see When good enough if is good enough.. we can compare actually arcade machines to arcade 1up all day.. yes we will find somethings better and worst... but when is good enough good enough? I have the midway defender cab from arcade 1up and joust plays like joust with minimal lag and I the remember that game like a T'. and it's so close to the arcade version that I can't really tell the difference beside a CRT and yeah maybe better buttons on occasion.. but the cost of an Arcade 1up is so much different than a true arcade ( Almost $1000's ) when dose Arcade 1up holds up on its own merits?

 

 I never played root beer tapper in defender in the arcade.. I was surprised to see that root beer taper and defender dose have an option to change the controls to more like the way I remember it.. (Ive only played defender on the 2600) see that controller option changed the hole game for me than the thrust and reverse buttons for me.. Also root beer tapper was nice to see using the second joystick to use as tap button vs just bottom press button to fill and sever..

Ive always found the LCD screen replacements on old arcade machines to look like garbage. just too sharp, no scanlines looks really bad IMO

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15 minutes ago, dudeguy said:

Ive always found the LCD screen replacements on old arcade machines to look like garbage. just too sharp, no scanlines looks really bad IMO

 I agree but who's making new CRT's that run at 15hz? that's under $500? unless you add a conversion board to a LCD.. CRT are not common enough in the USA. I do see you can finding them online through china's sketch sites ,ECT but still a lot of money.. would like nothing more than to own a  Amiga 1080 monitor in each Cab i own but that's not really in the cards anymore..

 

 Shoot I'm just happy that they are 4x3 or 3x5 LCD screens... those are hard enough to find..

Edited by skaredmask
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2 minutes ago, skaredmask said:

 I agree but who's making new CRT's that run at 15hz? that's under $500? unless you add a conversion board to a LCD.. CRT are not common enough in the USA. I do see you can find them online through china's sketch sites ,ECT but still a lot of money.. would like nothing more than to own a  Amiga 1080 monitor in each Cab i own but that's not really in the cards anymore..

I have a Mortal Kombat with a dead screen. Is it possible to just swap it with a monitor from a working CRT television? Kinda scared to attempt this as I know the voltage in those things can be dangerous. I dont feel like risking my health/life to repair this thing is a worthy endeavor

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8 minutes ago, dudeguy said:

I have a Mortal Kombat with a dead screen. Is it possible to just swap it with a monitor from a working CRT television? Kinda scared to attempt this as I know the voltage in those things can be dangerous. I dont feel like risking my health/life to repair this thing is a worthy endeavor

 I can't nor can anyone make this call for ya Online.. I would recommend a CRT/ TV repairman

Edited by skaredmask
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I heard that commercial arcade cabs were designed with a 1-2 year lifespan. They were built sturdily enough to handle all kinds of punishment and abuse early on. But when you go beyond that, parts degrade in a different kind of way from age. It all adds up. And any cab that was on the floor in the 80's is going to give you a rough time in restoring it to factory new.

 

Companies just didn't expect a game's popularity to endure past a few years. Burn them out and replace them with the next moneymaker.

 

For those of you that can unbunch your panties over things like authenticity, OG hardware, and CRT, you'll find that a modern-day fresh cab build is a good thing. At home the usage pattern is going to be completely different from what it would see in a commercial arcade full of delinquents and druggies. It will last many years. And best of all it can have a proper LCD with color saturation superior to CRT-anything. It can have multiple games and a control layout just-for-you.

 

No need to "invest" in a ratworn, moldy and sagging creepbox of a genuine 80's cab. There's nothing genuine about it anyways except the endless frustration from tweaks and repairs.

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2 hours ago, dudeguy said:

Ive always found the LCD screen replacements on old arcade machines to look like garbage. just too sharp, no scanlines looks really bad IMO

Yup! I've seen them. And that's because their scalers are on the cheapside. They don't have the necessary post-processing like a proper MAME setup would give you. They are not tuned and set for the game they're hosting. They're not done right and that is that! Pfft!

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I voted "no", but that's only because I prefer a more full size arcade cabinet. Don't get me wrong, I understand the love people have for 1ups and I like MAME.

 

If you are the type of person that:

- want something that is new

- is close enough to a full size arcade with many game per cab

- and you don't want something you have to dink around with because it's 30 plus years old

- of course they are readily available

So, yes I get it. For me personally I own a few original arcade games (that I owned before 1ups were a thing) and I just prefer the size and feel of the originals. I got a Rampage 1up when they first came out. It was neat for what it was, but it just didn't feel right.

 

5 hours ago, skaredmask said:

 Shoot I'm just happy that they are 4x3 or 3x5 LCD screens... those are hard enough to find..

Well, depending on were you live it isn't that hard to find the older style ratio LCD screens. I can find about 2 or so a month just going to second hand stores. There are a ton of Dell LCD monitors out there. You just have to look. These are the monitors I use in my ThinCades that I make for myself: ThinCade: DIY arcade project.

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I totally understand the appeal and would never tell someone not to get one, but I'm going with No. As far as something like an arcade cab goes, if it's not the absolute best it can be, I don't want to spend that kind of money on it or set aside that much space in my apartment. Needs to have a CRT (which I realize no new product CAN have) and needs to have Seimitsu or Sanwa controls for me to even begin considering dedicating the money and space to it. Given that I'm so picky, it would make a lot more sense for me to just build something myself with an FPGA or Neo Geo MVS. I reckon I'm not the target market, though.

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@Keatah Yes you're basically correct.  Arcade machines from the 80s and 90s into the 00s were built rock solid out of heavy thick materials, metal reinforcement, thick sticks and buttons to take heaps of wear, tear of normal abuse, but also abusive and drunken assholes too that could spill or worse on stuff ruining it, and ruining profit until repaired.  They may have intended a 1-2 year life before quarter feed would dry up to pointless, but the machines were built like a tank.  A1UP most definitely are not built the same, not to take the weight, aren't of that weight class, and not meant to be publicly used by people and rowdy alcoholics and rage monkeys either.  The machines had to be made thick for that, but also because a nice 20" or more CRT with the metal rack to hold them are exceptionally heavy, they're bolted into thick chunks of wood and that wood to more to hold that structure intact.  A1UP are made to hold a 1-2lbs LCD panel with some screws to keep it in place, much like the rest inside too.  A good angry fist to the screen probably would crack it if not drop it into the machine itself, while a real one you could pound on that tempered glass all day and bruise or break your hand first. :)

 

I don't get this nonsense that A1up is built great and arcade period cabinets were made as much disposable as these home fun arcade boxes are as it's bs.  In boxing terms, one is a featherweight, the other is a heavyweight.

 

And yes you can pop a consumer CRT into an old cabinet, but you'll need to know how, get a few extra pieces, and rig it up so it can handle the feed.  At least that's what I've read online, and seen results of, but I've had no reason to bother.

 

Personally whenever that 25" CRT behemoth in my Neo Geo fails, as much as it'll piss off enough purists and luddites, I'm getting a LCD in there.  I prefer a clean sharp stable image, and the weight savings is a huge bonus.  If someone were local, adn could come over here right NOW...by all means, you can have the CRT.  We'll just need to rig up some extra black or red bezel to pillarbox in the dead space since they stupidly don't make square LCDs over 19.5" without going into the $1000+ range which is a joke.

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Maybe in the US cabinets suck and are made out of cardboard or toilet paper or wet bread or something else like that, but most of the nice Japanese cabinets, including the Astro City, New Astro City, Blast City, and the Egret II, are built like a damn nuclear bomb shelter. They wouldn't still be the standard cabinets in modern arcades right now if they weren't.

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On 2/17/2023 at 2:44 AM, dudeguy said:

I have a Mortal Kombat with a dead screen. Is it possible to just swap it with a monitor from a working CRT television? Kinda scared to attempt this as I know the voltage in those things can be dangerous. I dont feel like risking my health/life to repair this thing is a worthy endeavor

have you considered just buying the right parts?

 

Talking purely theoretically about tube swaps, the connectors on the back of the tubes tend to vary with manufacturers/vendors having their preferences.  Rather than shucking consumer tvs to find one of about the same size that fits, or doing a neckboard swap (with appropriate prayer), it's probably easier to buy an arcade crt that works with your current neckboard/chassis online. It's a midway cab, whatever wells-gartner it has is not rare. You could just buy one.

 

If you meant chucking the whole TV in there, and then assuming we're in 'midway land' of the USA, you have your choice of jungle chip rgb modding or stuffing a supergun in there, neither of which are the most stellar ideas, compared to just buying the right parts.

 

Are you sure it's the tube?  given its age, chassis problems would be much more common. Parts are available or online repair shops are available and all say which models they fix.  There's really only so much to go wrong with a monitor chassis board. Flyback, caps, etc. Between sending the chassis in, or just buying a tube or new chassis off ebay, you're probably only out $200-500. Less than the cost of one a1up cab.

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14 hours ago, Keatah said:

The 80’s American arcade cabs were mostly pressboard that’d sag like my gramma’s titties. Some had internal plywood brassieres to prop them up.

I've never had or seen a sagging issue, but if they get wet, that's what MDF would start to do.  But the cab would swell/pucker and generally lose all of its art long before structural problems.  There is nothing arcade-wise that's quite as nice as drumming your fingers on an MDF control panel. 

 

...and somehow I don't have one.  My fully-american neo cab has a metal/plexi one because it hates me. 🙄

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Midway plywood

Williams plywood

Atari plywood and MDF.  

MDF is incredibly strong and will last forever as long as it isn't rained on...arcade games were never designed to be outside in the weather.

 

As far as condition after 40 years...

Anything and anyone is a product of its environment.  When you're a kid raised by grandma in a poor druggie infested neighborhood, you'll have experienced those kinds of seedy arcades with trashed games.  Raised in a nice area, and your arcade memories will be of well maintained games in pristine condition, located in spectacular arcades.

Decades later, you have a choice of buying the trashed games or well preserved/maintained games.

 

No different than buying a dented up, beat to hell car that spent years outside in a ghetto apartment parking lot...or the same make and model that was kept in a climate controlled garage from day one.

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1 hour ago, Reaperman said:

I've never had or seen a sagging issue, but if they get wet, that's what MDF would start to do

Our local GalaxyWorld (14km away) was beyond immaculate when they first opened up. Stayed that way for many years. They were appealing because they had the dark blue/neon carpet with typical 80's abstract patterns. They had enough space in-between the machines. This was extraordinarily important because it allowed for socialization around a game instead of being packed with nowhere to stand. The utter and complete opposite of Galloping Ghost.

 

They were overcrowded on Fridays and Saturdays - in fact it was fucking madhouse and impossible to move at those times. Cops directing traffic. Bouncer wannabes at every door. Fire department enforcing occupancy rules (not really). Everything. It used to be my premiere hangout for a while. Sometime in mid-90's things started to fall into disrepair. There may have been a roof leak or something because one area had cabs that developed a wobble or weren't as sure-footed as others. Section was cordoned off for months.

 

Blasteroids (a fav) went dichromatic-greenish for lack of red. Assault (another fav) turned yellow/blue/gray and had the sloppiest controls. Fairly certain Super Space Invaders '91 was the last game I played a game there. Everyone I knew stopped going too. It felt like we disbanded as we went off to school or the military or got married. Grown-up stuff started happening and we just never went back. Some years later the place was abandoned. Then more years later it was razed.

 

Our semi-local Dave & Busters (22km away) gets it mostly right if you ignore the redemption machines. There's space to move around. Space to slouch over a machine if you want to. And plenty of seating to watch the big games. They have a couple of classic consoles up front in the doorway/vestibule area, but they're rickety and the same old same old "safe" Pac-Man and Galaxian combo cabs.

 

---

 

It seems the establishments that try to be retro make the mistake of having too many classics too scrunched in and not in the best repair. These places have more rules and regulations.

 

Establishments that ignore the retro theme are better maintained. But of course they fall short of the classics.

 

 

 

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On 2/17/2023 at 2:40 AM, skaredmask said:

Shoot I'm just happy that they are 4x3 or 3x5 LCD screens... those are hard enough to find..

On the occasional occasion you will find NOS NIB 4:3 displays on ebay at a reasonable cost. IMHO I'd stock up on what's in good condition and whatever can be found still new. I'm a sucker for 1600x1200 (UXGA). Seems to be the highest resolution in widespread usage before 16:9 and HD took over. With 1280x1024 being a runner-up.

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On 2/17/2023 at 2:44 AM, dudeguy said:

I have a Mortal Kombat with a dead screen. Is it possible to just swap it with a monitor from a working CRT television?

That's not going to be practical because parts and boards will need to be modded. Requires understanding of schematics and both high and low voltage electronics.

 

On 2/17/2023 at 2:44 AM, dudeguy said:

Kinda scared to attempt this as I know the voltage in those things can be dangerous. I dont feel like risking my health/life to repair this thing is a worthy endeavor

Can be deadly. My recommendation (as said earlier) is to get a professional technician to do the work for you.

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I get the fear of repair factor.  I've got an issue with mine, and it's the one thing that doesn't have a normal pot/twist knob to screw with to get right, it's the horizontal stretch/stability.  It's this highly charged metal coil with a plastic dowl center and within it and set down a little is the adjustment, needs a specific plastic tool and a very steady had to screw with it...which I have neither.  It's getting into deathtrap territory so I just leave it be.  It's not annoying enough for me to do anything about it, but switching cart son the Neo Geo each game seems to want to set at a somewhat different h-size so some more/less on either side gets cut off.

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4 hours ago, Tanooki said:

needs a specific plastic tool and a very steady had to screw with it...

I won't encourage you to work beyond your comfort/knowledge level. But it seems to be a ferrite slug inside a coil. You need a plastic tool for a multitude of reasons.

 

Your body can become an antenna and cause magnetic interference/resonance.

Sticking a metal screwdriver in there would make it hard to get it adjusted right.

A hard tool like a screwdriver can and does shatter the ferrite slug.

Risk of shorting if you're not paying attention.

 

So non-conductive it is! You can get those plastic & ceramic tools from ebay for around $10 - $20. Probably less elsewhere. Keyword search TV adjustment / alignment tool. https://www.ebay.com/itm/282527620608

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That's it, that's what I couldn't remember the term for.  When i had that local friend over who took my flyback etc and recapped it mentioned to fix the remaining issue I'd need one, he didn't own one.  He said don't ever shove anything metal in there or brush your hand against here here and here or you'll regret it.  So I've just never meddled with it.

 

You're saying what he said, fragile, easily shattered, can get blasted if you brush up the wrong things in places, shorts the works.

 

I have a portable mirror I could setup in front of the cabinet to the side to check the adjustment process so that's fine, but I'm more concerned about the potential damage or turning it into my own accidental de-fib device. ;)

 

With the Neo Geo each game cart seems to move the h-size back and forward about 1/2" so like where i could just fit the power bars sides of SS3 in screen, you jump over to like Bust a Move and the ZERO in the p2 score is gone.  It's a bit annoying, but also I have this slight curl still to the edge of the right side, I'd have to get my camera and take a shot of the cross hatch to show you where it is on that, but I don't know if that at all is even fixable but largely it's not noticable either unless you stare at it/look for it.

 

It's kind of why I wish I could get a 19.5" LCD in there square but the empty space would be awful, so the other choice would be a larger somewhat rectangle LCD, then using black portrait matte cut a bezel and mount that to keep it looking good would be the other choice.  At least using that I'd have a bright clean sharp image with no BS with wavy lines, size changes, and other natural CRT era softness of things.

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It's the sloppy convergence and lack of deep color saturation that annoy me most about vintage arcade CRTs. Next is the overall geometry, like size changes and horizontal/vertical/curvature distortion, keystone and pincushion. Next is burn in and lower contrast fog when they get gassy.

 

One thing I like is the shadow mask, a tinge of color fringing, a hint of scanlines, and some NTSC fuzzies. I mean to say I like that on older lower-resolution games from the 2600 era.

 

For vector games a fine shadow mask is a requirement as is some visual hissing. What's that? It's like natural analog noise in the circuit dampened or moderated by phosphor persistence. It's a flickering effect you might see as the monitor draws a stationary vector line over and over again, additionally each redraw can be a sub-pixel different from the previous draw due to that natural analog noise.

 

With MAME you can dial it in to perfection, rock-solid sharpness, perfectly deep saturation, spot-on (nopunintended) alignment.. Or not.

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