doubledown's latest controller build...the Atari Micro Joystick Controller

[doubledown]

In an experiment to determine how small of an enclosure I could find, to build a new high quality Atari controller into, I developed this…and I present to you, my VVG Micro Controller, Codename “Hot Dog”:

 

 

The Serpac (17S,BK), two-piece, molded ABS, sloped-top enclosure, is just large enough to house the necessary controls…at 7” wide, 5” deep, 1.5” tall in the front, and 2.5” tall at the rear. 

 

The installed controls are all authentic arcade bits, including:

 

  **  (1) Seimitsu LS-32, microswitch joystick (8-way square, 8-way round, 8-way octagon, 4-way clover gates available) – assembled with a 1-3/8” (35mm) red polypropylene ball knob, and a 14mm black shaft sleeve, (as an homage to the vintage Pac-Man arcade sticks)

 

  **  (2) iL PSL-C, concave plunger, microswitch pushbuttons, red

 

  **  Custom CPO artwork includes the joystick directional detail and the Atari Games logo, from Atari’s Gauntlet arcade cabinet

 

  **  10' Super flexible, custom crimped cable

 

...but wait there’s more:

 

 

 

The latching pushbutton switch (with black/white indicating cap) on the side of the enclosure, allows the user to change up the wiring of the buttons, and offers 2 different, unique modes:

 

  **  Mode 1 – 2600 / 8-Bit / SMS – 2 Button Mode, (for 2600 & 8-Bit homebrews and hacks that are programmed for 2 button compatibility (as well as any 1 button games of course), and as a 2 button controller for the Sega Master System (as I just found out yesterday)

 

  **  Mode 2 – 7800 – 2 Button Mode, for 1 or 2 button Atari 7800 games

 

…that’s right, this new micro joystick is close to a “do-all controller” for most of your 2600, 8-Bit, 7800, and SMS game-play needs. (Not compatible with games that require special peripherals, such as a paddle controller, a light gun, or similar…obviously). 

 

And for those of you, who’s collection may have outgrown your allotted hobby space, fear not, it can be comfortably stored atop your favorite Atari game console, like so:

 

 

Don't worry, the enclosure features 4 soft rubber feet, so I can assure you, the 7800 was not harmed in the taking of these pictures.  Enjoy!

[+groundtrooper]

Nice.

Any chance of offering it in left hand/right hand versions? I would prefer buttons on the left stick on the right. 

[+sramirez2008]

Consider one sold. 🙂

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Very nice! I would very much be interested in one.  The only suggestion to make it that much more for the sms, would be to include the two diodes and button needed to allow the pause button function. Can also be made to work for the 7800 in the same way. 

[doubledown]

11 hours ago, groundtrooper said:

Nice.

Any chance of offering it in left hand/right hand versions? I would prefer buttons on the left stick on the right. 

Yes, a "right-hand stick, left-hand buttons" variant is possible.  I would just need to mirror the machining template.  

 

10 hours ago, sramirez2008 said:

Consider one sold. 🙂

I'd have to get updated pricing on some of the control hardware, as some of the components used in this build I've had from way back, and I don't know if they've had any significant price increases or not.  I also have to order more of the PCBs that I designed, and use, for the "mode-switch magic"...as this was the last one of the 3 that I got, with my initial prototype order way back.  I may revise the size of the PCB too, to make it a bit smaller, and easier to install on smaller controllers like these.  An, off the top of my head estimate, would probably end up somewhere in the $100-$125 price range, as it is configured/pictured/detailed above.  Cheaper components could of course be used to lower the price, but I only use high-quality, brand name control hardware, not any of copy/clone product available from China or the likes.  

 

9 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Very nice! I would very much be interested in one.  The only suggestion to make it that much more for the sms, would be to include the two diodes and button needed to allow the pause button function. Can also be made to work for the 7800 in the same way. 

I'm not familiar with this SMS pause button function.  I looked it up briefly, and it looks like it needs an additional momentary button, which grounds diode protected lines 3/4 (joystick left/right) when pressed...is that correct?

 

I will admit, that I only just found out about the SMS compatibility when in 2600 2-button mode, a couple of days ago when reading something on the old internets.  I designed this switching circuitry a couple of years ago, and installed it into 2 other controllers that I built (for 2600/8-Bit/7800 use)...but I never thought to randomly check it with an SMS.  But sure enough, I pulled out my SMS, and voila, works as advertised, even the button order is correct.  With this being true, then there is also the possibility that this controller would work with a consolized Atari Lynx, which has been adapted to use an external SMS control pad...although I have not tested this.  Additionally, this controller should also work for other consoles that followed the Atari standard for their controller ports, like the C-64 and I'm sure several others...although again, I've not tested any other consoles/computers.  

[+-^CrossBow^-]

18 minutes ago, doubledown said:

I'm not familiar with this SMS pause button function.  I looked it up briefly, and it looks like it needs an additional momentary button, which grounds diode protected lines 3/4 (joystick left/right) when pressed...is that correct?

Yes, this is how it works. Essentially the diodes are to isolate the left/right from each other when used as intended with the momentary button that is added causing both signals to be sent to a NOR gate to provide the impossible combo needed to trigger the pause signal within the console. It is easy to do this with SMS style NES controllers and my own 7800 NES style controller I use in my lab I adapted in a similar method so I can also use it for testing with RGB upgraded 2600s that use a similar setup for additional functions from the controller remotely. 

 

But instead of the left/right, I think it might have to use the up/down to prevent being detected as a paddle controller on atari systems. Been a bit since I messed with it in detail on my 7800 but I remember that being an issue when I used my Harmony cart with it. But the point was that the same method used for the SMS remote pause will also work on the 7800. Not as critical in the 7800's case since pause can also be programmed with button combos on the 7800, but in the case the SMS the pause was used in quite a few games to act as a third button to access additional selections in the game or inventory for the character...etc.

 

[+ZeroPage Homebrew]

12 hours ago, doubledown said:

With this being true, then there is also the possibility that this controller would work with a consolized Atari Lynx, which has been adapted to use an external SMS control pad...although I have not tested this.

 

A dream come true! I can put away the mushy SMS d-pad that I use for my Lynx, thank you so much @doubledown!

 

- James

[edladdin]

Very cool project!

[doubledown]

On 2/15/2023 at 9:34 AM, -^CrossBow^- said:

Yes, this is how it works. Essentially the diodes are to isolate the left/right from each other when used as intended with the momentary button that is added causing both signals to be sent to a NOR gate to provide the impossible combo needed to trigger the pause signal within the console. It is easy to do this with SMS style NES controllers and my own 7800 NES style controller I use in my lab I adapted in a similar method so I can also use it for testing with RGB upgraded 2600s that use a similar setup for additional functions from the controller remotely. 

 

But instead of the left/right, I think it might have to use the up/down to prevent being detected as a paddle controller on atari systems. Been a bit since I messed with it in detail on my 7800 but I remember that being an issue when I used my Harmony cart with it. But the point was that the same method used for the SMS remote pause will also work on the 7800. Not as critical in the 7800's case since pause can also be programmed with button combos on the 7800, but in the case the SMS the pause was used in quite a few games to act as a third button to access additional selections in the game or inventory for the character...etc.

 

I may have to try this out as a buddy was interested in me building him an SMS arcade stick.  Do you know does this work for all games...or does a game have to have a pause feature programmed into it?

 

18 hours ago, ZeroPage Homebrew said:

 

A dream come true! I can put away the mushy SMS d-pad that I use for my Lynx, thank you so much @doubledown!

 

- James

Ah yes, the oh so terrible SMS control pad, only surpassed in terrible-ness, possibly, by the Atari 7800 Joypad (Europe).  How did Nintendo get it so right, and everybody else failed so miserably.

 

14 hours ago, edladdin said:

Very cool project!

Definitely a lot simpler than most of the controllers I normally build...and lets face it...it is pretty adorable!  😁

[+-^CrossBow^-]

3 minutes ago, doubledown said:

I may have to try this out as a buddy was interested in me building him an SMS arcade stick.  Do you know does this work for all games...or does a game have to have a pause feature programmed into it?

If you are talking about SMS, then yes it works to either pause the game or pull up an additional screen with information. Just depends on how the game programs the use of that button. The common SMS pause mod uses the impossible combo of Left+Right to trigger the pause and I've done this on a few SMS systems over the year. But having to add in an extra button on the already not great SMS controller has never been ideal. The last 2 I did was to modify improved controllers from Retrogameboyz SMS controllers. His PCBs were already sorta designed around it even if he didn't know it at that time.

 

But yes, as far as I know all SMS games make use of the pause button as either use as a 3rd button or for pausing the game or both as accessing a screen of additional info essentially pauses the game as well.

 

But again, it can be adapted for use on the 7800 side of things too as there is an unused via near the RIOT that is tied to the pause button and you only need to ground it to activate it.

 

[Bixler]

I can vouch for doubledown's controller quality. I've been using one regularly for a while now. 10/10.

[+Yurkie]

On 2/14/2023 at 8:52 PM, doubledown said:

In an experiment to determine how small of an enclosure I could find, to build a new high quality Atari controller into, I developed this…and I present to you, my VVG Micro Controller, Codename “Hot Dog”:

 

 

 

This thing is sweet. I would want the joystick on the right but, that is me.

 

Ever consider using a wireless controller to make one of these controllers wireless? This as example.

https://www.amazon.com/8Bitdo-2-4G-Wireless-Gamepad-Genesis-Drive/dp/B07XPHP57T/ref=sr_1_1?crid=1Q2WL6JLKGZ9G&keywords=8bitdo+m30+2.4g&qid=1676847717&sprefix=8bitdo+m30%2Caps%2C137&sr=8-1

[doubledown]

2 hours ago, Yurkie said:

Ever consider using a wireless controller to make one of these controllers wireless?

No...just more cost, more complexity, and more to fail.  Worst case scenario is when the battery will no longer take a charge, and then the controller useless (unless a new battery is available)...but I do understand that some people like the wireless.  I just don't have any interest in it.  

[+Yurkie]

Will you make one "joystick on the right" for me and if so how much?

[SwanSong]

What's the price point? My controllers are about done.

[doubledown]

On 2/20/2023 at 7:54 PM, Yurkie said:

Will you make one "joystick on the right" for me and if so how much?

 

8 hours ago, SwanSong said:

What's the price point? My controllers are about done.

 

As detailed/specified in the first post...somewhere in the $110 - $125 range...I'd have to sit down and calculate a final price.  

 

Over the years I've come to realize that there are 2 very different camps of joystick/pushbutton aficionados...those that prefer silent controls, and those who prefer (and sometimes absolutely need) to hear "clicks."  This particular controller was built with this second group in mind, those who may suffer from a mild case of Sedatephobia (fear of silence...its a real thing).  As such, it features a microswitch joystick, and microswitch pushbuttons...and I mean true snap action "microswitches", not "micro" switches (wherein "micro" is simply used as a synonym for small), and is fully "clicky"...for all of those who need to hear those "clicks," to know that their controller is working.  This has only been made possible recently (within the last year-ish), as iL has finally added a super-short microswitch pushbutton to their lineup, the PSL-C, that can be installed into these small/shallow types of enclosures (currently available to purchase from Arcade Express in Spain).  The standard iL PSL series of microswitch pushbuttons have always been way too long to install into any type of enclosure this small in size, so most building something similar in size, would end up using silent Japanese keyswitch pushbuttons, partnered with a clicky microswitch joystick, as that was their only option...but this controller configuration, is all clicky...all the time.  

 

Now, for those who prefer their controls be silent (like me, and all of the other rational humans in the world 😁 ), and can rely on their own visual observations of on-screen heppenings to acknowledge that their controllers are working properly, I am working on a silent version of this controller too.  I just got in a new QANBA Gravity Silent joystick w/ Cherry switches to try out, and I would pair it with Ultimarc GoldLeaf pushbuttons (for their classic concave plunger look/feel, and silent operation)...for an overall totally, silent game-play experience.  I believe Sanwa and Seimitsu have both made, "silent" joysticks, wherein they employ "silent" variant microswitches...which are very, very quiet, and are usually very near to, but usually never totally 100% click-free.  This new QANBA joystick uses truly silent keyswitches, and is one of the most silent joysticks I've ever encountered.  I got it installed and hooked up in my test fixture last night, and a buddy and I were play testing a bunch of 2600/7800/ColecoVision games with it...and I'm very happy with its overall feel and operation.  I'll have to look and see if I have any Ultimarc pushbuttons in stock or not, so I'm not sure when I'll have this silent version done, but it should be soon.  I can say now, that this silent version would be about $20 more than the "clicky" version, as the joystick itself costs about $20 more than a Seimitsu LS-32 microswitch joystick. 

 

So let me get this silent one finished, and then I can look into accurate pricing, if anybody is still interested now knowing "ballpark" pricing.  

 

One other note of something that I found out recently.  As I recently realized that this controller does work for SMS games on an SMS, I was doing some play testing with it recently, and I did notice something odd.  The controller ports on the SMS consoles are more recessed than those on Atari consoles, and the plug end that I crimp onto my cables, while they work perfectly fine on Ataris, Colecos, and the likes, they don't fully plug into the SMS ports as far as I would like them too (as they are a bit shorter), so anybody who would want to use this controller on an actual SMS, would need to use some sort of DE-9 extension cable that can plug into the deeper ports of the SMS, to which this controller would plug into...again, only on an SMS...just an FYI.  

[+-^CrossBow^-]

7 minutes ago, doubledown said:

 

 

As detailed/specified in the first post...somewhere in the $110 - $125 range...I'd have to sit down and calculate a final price.  

 

Over the years I've come to realize that there are 2 very different camps of joystick/pushbutton aficionados...those that prefer silent controls, and those who prefer (and sometimes absolutely need) to hear "clicks."  This particular controller was built with this second group in mind, those who may suffer from a mild case of Sedatephobia (fear of silence...its a real thing).  As such, it features a microswitch joystick, and microswitch pushbuttons...and I mean true snap action "microswitches", not "micro" switches (wherein "micro" is simply used as a synonym for small), and is fully "clicky"...for all of those who need to hear those "clicks," to know that their controller is working.  This has only been made possible recently (within the last year-ish), as iL has finally added a super-short microswitch pushbutton to their lineup, the PSL-C, that can be installed into these small/shallow types of enclosures (currently available to purchase from Arcade Express in Spain).  The standard iL PSL series of microswitch pushbuttons have always been way too long to install into any type of enclosure this small in size, so most building something similar in size, would end up using silent Japanese keyswitch pushbuttons, partnered with a clicky microswitch joystick, as that was their only option...but this controller configuration, is all clicky...all the time.  

 

Now, for those who prefer their controls be silent (like me, and all of the other rational humans in the world 😁 ), and can rely on their own visual observations of on-screen heppenings to acknowledge that their controllers are working properly, I am working on a silent version of this controller too.  I just got in a new QANBA Gravity Silent joystick w/ Cherry switches to try out, and I would pair it with Ultimarc GoldLeaf pushbuttons (for their classic concave plunger look/feel, and silent operation)...for an overall totally, silent game-play experience.  I believe Sanwa and Seimitsu have both made, "silent" joysticks, wherein they employ "silent" variant microswitches...which are very, very quiet, and are usually very near to, but usually never totally 100% click-free.  This new QANBA joystick uses truly silent keyswitches, and is one of the most silent joysticks I've ever encountered.  I got it installed and hooked up in my test fixture last night, and a buddy and I were play testing a bunch of 2600/7800/ColecoVision games with it...and I'm very happy with its overall feel and operation.  I'll have to look and see if I have any Ultimarc pushbuttons in stock or not, so I'm not sure when I'll have this silent version done, but it should be soon.  I can say now, that this silent version would be about $20 more than the "clicky" version, as the joystick itself costs about $20 more than a Seimitsu LS-32 microswitch joystick. 

 

So let me get this silent one finished, and then I can look into accurate pricing, if anybody is still interested now knowing "ballpark" pricing.  

 

One other note of something that I found out recently.  As I recently realized that this controller does work for SMS games on an SMS, I was doing some play testing with it recently, and I did notice something odd.  The controller ports on the SMS consoles are more recessed than those on Atari consoles, and the plug end that I crimp onto my cables, while they work perfectly fine on Ataris, Colecos, and the likes, they don't fully plug into the SMS ports as far as I would like them too (as they are a bit shorter), so anybody who would want to use this controller on an actual SMS, would need to use some sort of DE-9 extension cable that can plug into the deeper ports of the SMS, to which this controller would plug into...again, only on an SMS...just an FYI.  

I'm on board for one of the new 'silent' ones for sure. I love my 'Brat' controller but it is a bit noisy when I'm wanting to play later at night heh. Also, was the SMS you were using a model 1 or model 2 SMS? I don't recall the ports being recessed in further but will have to give that a look. I do have a set of Genesis externsion cables I use for my AVox+ and Vectrex That I imagine would be fine for that. But I also have one of those old school rapid fire adapters for the SMS that could be used as well. Again, if I had one of these, I would likely end up looking at modifying it for that remote pause button function for SMS use since that is pretty much required when playing SMS games now.

 

[doubledown]

28 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

I'm on board for one of the new 'silent' ones for sure. I love my 'Brat' controller but it is a bit noisy when I'm wanting to play later at night heh. Also, was the SMS you were using a model 1 or model 2 SMS? I don't recall the ports being recessed in further but will have to give that a look. I do have a set of Genesis externsion cables I use for my AVox+ and Vectrex That I imagine would be fine for that. But I also have one of those old school rapid fire adapters for the SMS that could be used as well. Again, if I had one of these, I would likely end up looking at modifying it for that remote pause button function for SMS use since that is pretty much required when playing SMS games now.

 

 

Model 1 SMS. 

 

I can take a close up picture tonight to show you the difference between a what I'll call a "standard" Atari molded DE-9 cable end, like those used on Atari, Sega, and other controllers...versus the one that I've been using for years now, which I crimp onto my own custom cables.  Which, by the by, are the same DE-9 ends as those used on the original Odyssey 2 disconnectable controllers, as well as some of the original Coin Control Competition joysticks way back in the day.  The plastic plug tip end is shorter on these (versus the Atari/Sega molded ones), thus them not firmly nesting into the SMS Model 1's slightly more recessed/deeper controller ports.  They can work, but if you tug on the cable at all when plugged into an SMS, it will probably pull out.  I'm going to make myself a short adapter for this, by cutting a Sega extension cable down to about 12", and crimping on a new female receptacle, as I don't need a full 6' or 10' extension cable, plus the 10' cable from my controller.

 

I haven't had a chance to look into the pause feature yet...busy with Intellivison controllers, but I might have some time tonight to try it out.  Then it would be a matter of deciding on a button that will fit, and where will it fit, to install it into the controller...in such a manner that it looks good enough to me.  

[+-^CrossBow^-]

Well if you do look into the SMS pause function. I would use the Up/Down impossible combo because that way it can also be adapted to work with the 7800 and that way not confuse the console that you have paddle controllers plugged in. Or at last, I recall that being the problem when I was testing it on the 7800 side once before.

 

 

[doubledown]

1 hour ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

Well if you do look into the SMS pause function. I would use the Up/Down impossible combo because that way it can also be adapted to work with the 7800 and that way not confuse the console that you have paddle controllers plugged in. Or at last, I recall that being the problem when I was testing it on the 7800 side once before.

 

 

So give me some final clarification here with this concept of the Pause button:

 

So I wire a pushbutton (or switch) to have Pin 1 (Up) plus a diode, and Pin 2 (Down) plus a diode both connected to the N.O. contact (or no diodes required if using a double pole button or switch), then wire Pin 8 (GND) to the COM contact, of same said pushbutton (or switch) and then...

 

This works as a duplicate Pause button (in addition to the one installed in the console) on a Sega Master System...unmodified...or does the console need to be modified?

 

This works as a duplicate Pause button (in addition the one installed in the console) on an Atari 7800...unmodified...or does the console need to be modified?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

It also requires a light modification in the consoles to match. What is needed a simple NOR logic added that reads the simultaneous inputs from both directions when the button on the controller is pressed. That in turn causes the signal for Pause to be grounded and initiate. So inside the console you have to run wires from which ever pins you select for the dual control function Up+Dn or Lf+Rt to the NOR gates. From there a wire from the output side goes to the pause. This also requires another diode in the console on the pause wire so prevent any back feeding just like it is needed on the controller directions. It is really simple circuit but yeah the SMS pause kits are already a thing that invovled modifying an existing SMS controller with the diode pair in addition to the small logic circuit inside the console.

 

I've done it on a few SMS consoles since again that system has quite a few games that use the pause button as a 3rd button to access inventory or something similar in the game. I've only done it on my 7800 as a test to see if the same design could be used and it can but never been requested to add it in.

 

But if you wanted to make that controller 7800 and SMS then it would be cool to have that functionality maybe not in place, but at least have something at the ready to make it easy to do if someone wanted to.

 

[doubledown]

Gotcha...so without modifying my consoles...I would have no way to test it, other then to verify that both directional contacts (Up and Down) are made when pressing the pause button, and only one directional contact (Up or Down) is made at a time when manipulating the joystick...correct?

[+-^CrossBow^-]

You got it!

[doubledown]

15 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said:

You got it!

Great.  Now I'd just need to find/select a small pushbutton to do the job for those that would want this....and decide where to install it.  I would assume mount it high / middle on the control surface, "above-ish" the main (index finger operated) pushbutton...probably.  

[doubledown]

So it turns out, its more an issue of shape, not plug end length (like I thought), that causes my crimp on cable ends to not firmly stay put in SMS controller ports:

 

 

So mine have corners on the plug end that are much more rounded than those on the Atari/Sega cables, which must wedge/hold themselves into the SMS ports better than the ones I use...which again, hold perfectly fine in all Atari, ColecoVision, Intellivision, and other consoles.