Nostalgia Fatique

[CapitanClassic]

5 minutes ago, Creamhoven said:

I agree. Companies have too much power and are in many cases just plain parasitic. The rights of the people and their culture, tradition and ways of life need to be upheld. Capitalism and money shouldnt be an excuse to screw with people. There need to be mechanisms to force companies to behave in a decent manner. By reducing copyright to 28 years after release, it hurts the creator and his loved ones/family. I totally agree that companies must be regulated with an iron fist.

Sorry, cannot agree with you here. Companies don’t have too much power, unless they are cronying it up working with governments. Copyright is sort of the opposite of a free market anyway, as it allows the author the monopolistic right to limit how/where/who is allowed to exploit their work with the force of government behind it.

 

when it comes down to it, what small creator has the $500,000 to fight it out court? Copyright is mostly for the big guys, and it needs to be limited severely so that they cannot exploit it very very long.

[Creamhoven]

9 minutes ago, CapitanClassic said:

when it comes down to it, what small creator has the $500,000 to fight it out court? Copyright is mostly for the big guys, and it needs to be limited severely so that they cannot exploit it very very long.

If only big companies can make their rights work for them in court the system is rigged and that is the center of the issue.

[CapitanClassic]

@Creamhoven this thread is supposed to be about Nostalgia Fatigue, so I don’t want to go on and on about copyright, if you can find someway of making people not value money, or lawyers to work for free, or courts caring about justice, let us all know.

 

”Well, unfortunately, I don't want to break any illusions out there, but the color of justice is green," — Johnny Cochran

“ladies and gentlemen of this supposed jury, I have one final thing I want you to consider. Ladies and gentlemen, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a wookie from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about that; that does not make sense!” — Resembles-but-legally-distinct-Cochran

 

[Creamhoven]

1 minute ago, CapitanClassic said:

@Creamhoven this thread is supposed to be about Nostalgia Fatigue, so I don’t want to go on and on about copyright, if you can find someway of making people not value money, or lawyers to work for free, or courts caring about justice, let us all know.

I appreachiate your perspective.

 

I would suggest a system that works with less sophistry altogether.

1 minute ago, CapitanClassic said:

 

 

 

[randomcat2000]

12 hours ago, Creamhoven said:

The point is whether the cultural artefacts are expressions of a high civilisational state.
 

Because orchestras are an expression of a civilisational achivement. You can make enjoyable music by smashing stones at eachother but thats a more primitivistic approach.

 

Because it indicates the state of civilisation. If you cannot uphold certain standards or in fact improve on them, it indicates decline. Not every production needs to be a surpassing of the roman empire, but if it does not happen at all, I would argue civilisation is in an unhealthy state as a whole.

Machines that used to require entire rooms now fit in our pockets with many thousands, if not millions of times more processing power. The technological progress made in the past 50 years has been massive. To me, this is the real indicator of our species progress, or "high civilisational state".

12 hours ago, Creamhoven said:

On the question of art I want to add that most of entertainment these days does not qualify as art in my view. A critical aspect of art is innovation. Rock music for example is derivative of baroque music or at the very least contemporary rock is highly derivative of earlier forms of rock. It is an ever increasing cultural degression.

Everything is derivative if you dig enough. Classical music is highly derivative of earlier classical music, great composers were influenced by music made before them. Rock music has plenty of innovation, maybe not mainstream, but it is there. Unconventional timings and structures, addition of instruments and elements from other genres, electronic effects, endless subgenres, while I don't see much innovation in classical music (apart from the cannons ). Maybe, in the same way that I don't see innovation in genres I'm not interested in, you don't see innovation in genres you aren't interested in.

6 hours ago, Creamhoven said:

If you ask someone to name a great composer you might hear names like Vivaldi. The gaming equivalent to that would be if a usual answer asking for great videogames would be Space Invaders and Missle command. While those are great classics no doubt, alot of people will name something more contemporary like Elden Ring. While gaming is not as innovative as in the 70s to 90s it is still in great shape compared to painting, music and literature. Anyways, even though there is a certain richness to the experience of digitized/digital media, there is something missing.

The word "composer" is usually used specifically for classical music, the gaming equivalent would be asking for great arcade games. If you asked someone to name a great songwriter, you might hear more recent names like Bowie. Maybe not as contemporary as something like Elden Ring, but the state of music isn't as catastrophic as you seem to think.

[zzip]

18 hours ago, Creamhoven said:

I tried to watch it but when R2D2 and 3CPO walk through the desert I had to turn it off. It is in my opinion not as timeless as others seem to think, but I can respect the movies for what they are, even if they are not for me.

That's as far as you got?   That's right at the beginning.   The droids are mostly comic relief.   And most people say the second movie (episode V) is the best.

 

18 hours ago, Creamhoven said:

20 hours ago, CatPix said:

Culture has never been so rich and so accessible... but as roots.genoa said, it requires you to do mroe than just sit in your random cinema megaplex and complain about always being served the same stale soup.

Culture is certainly rich in quantity, and if you dig deep and long enough you will find alot of great things for sure.

 

I think culture is a living thing, and old stuff is part of that in terms of classics, nostalgia, tradition etc. But an important component is contemporary art on a high level.

Here's the problem in a nutshell.   Yes there's a mountain of content, and yes you can find some real gems if you dig through it.    But culture is a shared thing.   I could find an amazing band on bandcamp, and maybe they have 10,000 fans--   around the globe.   That's nothing in the grand scheme of things.    Nobody I know is likely to be a fan.  Maybe I could turn them onto it, maybe it's too outside their tastes.    Technology is causing us to be more siloed, we all have suggestions tailored to our tastes.   The shared experience of great music is disappearing, usually it's the low brow stuff that rises to the top.  And it's happening outside music too.

 

17 hours ago, Creamhoven said:

I agree. Companies have too much power and are in many cases just plain parasitic. The rights of the people and their culture, tradition and ways of life need to be upheld. Capitalism and money shouldnt be an excuse to screw with people. There need to be mechanisms to force companies to behave in a decent manner. By reducing copyright to 28 years after release, it hurts the creator and his loved ones/family. I totally agree that companies must be regulated with an iron fist.

It hurts creators family in theory, but in practice most valuable IPs get some to some mega-corp prior to that and the family has already been paid off.   The main reason copyrights are now so long is to benefit mega companies like Disney

 

 

[zzip]

17 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

Companies don’t have too much power, unless they are cronying it up working with governments.

but that is happening...

[pacman000]

On 3/2/2023 at 9:11 AM, CapitanClassic said:

Are there really these “greater projects” that take longer than 14 years to produce?

Everything I do.

[CapitanClassic]

30 minutes ago, zzip said:

but that is happening...

Which is why you don’t want the government being too powerful. Otherwise companies can use governmental force to monopolize the market.

[zzip]

21 minutes ago, CapitanClassic said:

Which is why you don’t want the government being too powerful. Otherwise companies can use governmental force to monopolize the market.

right, but it's a balancing act.  I don't think you want unchecked government power or unchecked corporate power running amok.

[CapitanClassic]

30 minutes ago, zzip said:

right, but it's a balancing act.  I don't think you want unchecked government power or unchecked corporate power running amok.

Absolutely. It is strange to me how companies can violate laws, and at worst they have to pay civil penalties. What should be happening is that someone should be going to jail. At a minimum, the company should go to jail, and they shouldn’t be able to do business under that name/trademark for the next X years.

 

There were big companies like Google, Facebook, etc that were creating black-lists to prevent software engineers from jumping companies and getting poached by other companies. No one went to jail. These kind of companies lobby the federal government to increase H1B visas so that they can hire workers whose immigration status is tied to a specific companies job.

 

Same thing happens in government. The people in power investigate themselves and find no wrongdoing.

 

I just want to see more people going to jail, or at least being held accountable for breaking the rules that they created.

[randomcat2000]

18 hours ago, CapitanClassic said:

Absolutely. It is strange to me how companies can violate laws, and at worst they have to pay civil penalties. What should be happening is that someone should be going to jail. At a minimum, the company should go to jail, and they shouldn’t be able to do business under that name/trademark for the next X years.

At a certain point, fines are just a business expense.

[Creamhoven]

Thank you for your replies. It is stimulating to read them all.

On 3/3/2023 at 3:18 AM, randomcat2000 said:

Machines that used to require entire rooms now fit in our pockets with many thousands, if not millions of times more processing power. The technological progress made in the past 50 years has been massive.

Okay, but that says more about civilisational achivement of the past.

On 3/3/2023 at 3:18 AM, randomcat2000 said:

Maybe, in the same way that I don't see innovation in genres I'm not interested in, you don't see innovation in genres you aren't interested in.

I do believe this to be true, and my perspective on this is on the pessimistic side for sure. I do not enjoy contemporary for the most part. That being said I still think there is a cultural degression going on, though it might not be as bad as I presive it, Im sure it is there.

On 3/3/2023 at 3:18 AM, randomcat2000 said:

The word "composer" is usually used specifically for classical music, the gaming equivalent would be asking for great arcade games. If you asked someone to name a great songwriter, you might hear more recent names like Bowie.

Yes but that even that answer indicates that we are living in the past cultuarlly speaking. It is great to hear rock music is still alive to a point. That classical music is essential a dead artform at this point I think is worrying.

On 3/3/2023 at 3:18 AM, randomcat2000 said:

Maybe not as contemporary as something like Elden Ring, but the state of music isn't as catastrophic as you seem to think.

In terms of classical music it is pretty bad.

19 hours ago, zzip said:

That's as far as you got?   That's right at the beginning.   The droids are mostly comic relief. 

Unfortuantly yes. It felt vert drawn out to me, and it really threw me off.

19 hours ago, zzip said:

 

 And most people say the second movie (episode V) is the best.

Maybe I will check it out some day.

19 hours ago, zzip said:

 

Here's the problem in a nutshell.   Yes there's a mountain of content, and yes you can find some real gems if you dig through it.    But culture is a shared thing.   I could find an amazing band on bandcamp, and maybe they have 10,000 fans--   around the globe.   That's nothing in the grand scheme of things.    Nobody I know is likely to be a fan.  Maybe I could turn them onto it, maybe it's too outside their tastes.   

Yes. There is a death of monoculture we have lived through. There isnt much you can just whip up in a conversation about pop culture, with a high liklyhood that others even know what you are talking about. You might just as well start a conversation about the dreamcast.

19 hours ago, zzip said:

 

Technology is causing us to be more siloed, we all have suggestions tailored to our tastes.   The shared experience of great music is disappearing, usually it's the low brow stuff that rises to the top.  And it's happening outside music too.

Yes. And the low brow quality is degrading and demoralising. Often times it is obscenely nasty as well. It is a mess.

19 hours ago, zzip said:

 

It hurts creators family in theory, but in practice most valuable IPs get some to some mega-corp prior to that and the family has already been paid off.   The main reason copyrights are now so long is to benefit mega companies like Disney

 

 

Yes, I agree. I would favor a system that isnt run by companies and the state in a cynical fashion that screws with normal people.

[jhd]

On 2/28/2023 at 7:59 PM, zzip said:

Well since I work in that area-  it's basically that you are always increasing the functionality of your product to stay a step ahead of the competition (or playing catch up to them) so that one day you can say "Alexa, open my garage door".   Why that's appealing or easier than pushing a button eludes me.

 

I am reminded of my (late) Father. He did not use the automatic garage door opener. He would park the car, walk into the house, press the manual control to open the garage, go back outside to the car, and then finally pull inside. He would have utterly no use for an online garage door opener.  

[zzip]

On 3/4/2023 at 6:49 AM, Creamhoven said:

Yes but that even that answer indicates that we are living in the past cultuarlly speaking. It is great to hear rock music is still alive to a point. That classical music is essential a dead artform at this point I think is worrying.

I suppose movie and videogame soundtracks keep classical composers and orchestras employed.   

 

On 3/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, randomcat2000 said:

Everything is derivative if you dig enough. Classical music is highly derivative of earlier classical music, great composers were influenced by music made before them. Rock music has plenty of innovation, maybe not mainstream, but it is there.

All music is derivative.   It has to be.   There needs to be something recognizable in the music for people to latch onto.  Once you have that in your music , you can introducing new things and expand musical possibilities.   If you came out with completely original music with original chord progressions and what not, it would not sound good to most people,  they'd have no frame of reference for it.

 

However today's pop music isn't introducing new things and expanding music,  it's narrowing,  reducing the range of chords used, never use odd meters, etc.

 

On 3/2/2023 at 10:18 PM, randomcat2000 said:

The word "composer" is usually used specifically for classical music, the gaming equivalent would be asking for great arcade games. If you asked someone to name a great songwriter, you might hear more recent names like Bowie. Maybe not as contemporary as something like Elden Ring, but the state of music isn't as catastrophic as you seem to think.

I would adjust your analogy a bit.   Arcade games might be more like medieval traveling minstrel bands, and Elden Ring is more like an orchestra.   The arcade game was often created by one person or a small group of people.   Big games like Elden Ring need a large group of people working together, much like an orchestra.     Over the 100 - 150 years we've seen music go from orchestra, to big band, to rock band to electronic music that can be created by one or two people.

 

At the same time videogames have been increasing in complexity and effort.

 

A lot of it comes down to money.   People are interested in investing in big games,  but not so much in investing in complex music.  Record labels these days expect music to be made cheaply, they don't give large advances anymore,  the fewer band members the cheaper.   And you get what you pay for.

[Creamhoven]

Sometimes I wake up in the morning, telling myself 'please god, let this cultural desert be over with' only to realize that there still is no end in sight. Keep strong fellow retro enjoyers.

[randomcat2000]

4 hours ago, zzip said:

However today's pop music isn't introducing new things and expanding music,  it's narrowing,  reducing the range of chords used, never use odd meters, etc.

Never said anything about pop music

4 hours ago, zzip said:

I would adjust your analogy a bit.   Arcade games might be more like medieval traveling minstrel bands, and Elden Ring is more like an orchestra.   The arcade game was often created by one person or a small group of people.   Big games like Elden Ring need a large group of people working together, much like an orchestra.     Over the 100 - 150 years we've seen music go from orchestra, to big band, to rock band to electronic music that can be created by one or two people.

 

At the same time videogames have been increasing in complexity and effort.

 

A lot of it comes down to money.   People are interested in investing in big games,  but not so much in investing in complex music.  Record labels these days expect music to be made cheaply, they don't give large advances anymore,  the fewer band members the cheaper.   And you get what you pay for.

Most of the best games coming out recently were made by small teams and independent developers, while big AAA games become more and more bloated. Elden ring is an exception. Complexity is not necessarily a virtue by any means. Great albums can be made by one person in their car.

Bands are shrinking because of how music is distributed now, back when orchestras were more popular, music was a big event. You had to physically go to a theatre to listen to it, thus spectacle mattered more. Now, you can listen to any album from the comfort of your own home. The way we physically listen to music has changed, and so has the structure of bands to compensate.

[Steven Pendleton]

On 3/2/2023 at 6:54 AM, Creamhoven said:

That's like, SNES/PS1 era? What do you enjoy more about older titles, and how do you explain the change?

1985~2000 or so, really. I don't know why. I don't think about it other than "these games make my brain feel happy and modern games usually don't because they are mostly worse". Some exceptions exist, of course; everyone needs to go play Sonic Mania since it's pretty much the best game released in the past 20 years.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Steven Pendleton

[zzip]

 

  

15 hours ago, randomcat2000 said:

Never said anything about pop music

I think most of us are.     We acknowledge there are still bands out there making good music, problem is they are mostly outside the pop culture machine and so nobody knows about them.  Meanwhile the music industry pushes lower and lower effort music which is what becomes pop culture.   It wasn't always like this. It's a sign of an industry in decline. 

 

15 hours ago, randomcat2000 said:

Most of the best games coming out recently were made by small teams and independent developers, while big AAA games become more and more bloated. Elden ring is an exception. Complexity is not necessarily a virtue by any means. Great albums can be made by one person in their car.

Sure there's always exceptions.  Flappy Bird was a one-man game that caused a sensation,  there's plenty of examples of expensive albums that aren't great.   But in general you have to pay for quality.   Do you want real musicians and real instruments on the record instead of all electronic?  It's going to cost extra.  Add strings and horns to fill out the sound?  more money.   Top notch producer?  even more...  

 

Same with gaming,  the cheap to make games will look and feel cheap.   Sometimes they stumble upon a fun game mechanic which makes the game fun in spite of how low-quality it looks and feels (Minecraft).   But not every developer can get lucky with the next Minecraft.  Steam is full of shattered indie dreams-- tons of games nobody's heard of.     In general people want better looking games that's why they keep spending money on hardware upgrades.   So many indie developers try to keep up in the visual department, and that costs money too..   you have to pay artists, motion capture, voice actors, audio engineers and so forth to produce a polished game.

 

15 hours ago, randomcat2000 said:

Bands are shrinking because of how music is distributed now, back when orchestras were more popular, music was a big event. You had to physically go to a theatre to listen to it, thus spectacle mattered more. Now, you can listen to any album from the comfort of your own home. The way we physically listen to music has changed, and so has the structure of bands to compensate.

yeah It's because of technology mostly.  technology created amplification so bands could shrink,  broadcast over the radio so you didn't have to go to the theater regularly.  Synths so you could eliminate band members, Downloads so you didn't have to go to a music store (and artists get less money),  Streaming so artists get even less money.   And now you are starting to get AI generated music so you don't need the human element at all?

 

I think people are starting to wake up to the costs and perils of technology instead of only focusing on the benefits.

 

[almightytodd]

On 2/28/2023 at 6:59 PM, zzip said:

Well since I work in that area-  it's basically that you are always increasing the functionality of your product to stay a step ahead of the competition (or playing catch up to them) so that one day you can say "Alexa, open my garage door".   Why that's appealing or easier than pushing a button eludes me.

 

Of course there's always the tech dystopian fear that all this cool tech ends up enabling a tech tyranny where they can centrally shut off all your services if you aren't a good compliant citizen.

 

On 2/28/2023 at 9:31 PM, Keatah said:

I'm not too concerned about that.. Unless I should be?

 

Another issue I have is with AI. There's always news articles and fearmongering about how it's unstoppable and how it's going to take over everything. Ok. Well if it's that bad then why not simply stop development on it.

 

OTH I would argue the internet is a sentient network, in a way that's more advanced and different than what we believe and recognize. And it already controls so many things and so many people. And most nodes have a biological being trapped in them.

My concern with AI isn't with the AI itself - it's that it's being applied to a Capitalist system that rewards profit growth above all else - which will inevitably widen the income gap and eliminate the middle class. This story presents a very plausible illustration of how this might happen. Any business enterprise would undoubtedly be more profitable if its entire labor force is "owned". If a computer is smart enough to drive you safely to your workplace, why couldn't it be made smart enough to just do your job too?

 

As to the suspected loss of creativity in the current culture, the author of this book argues that since we're always looking at someone else's content on our little mobile screens, we never have the opportunity to be "bored" and to daydream and be creative ourselves. We're just constantly recycling other people's thoughts. Things like Chat GPT take this even further by scanning the entire Internet and combining the ideas it finds in sometimes novel ways. 

 

Sure, people laugh about how AI is just in its infancy now, and it hasn't done anything stunning. But remember, the Wright Brothers' Flyer only travelled a few hundred feet and less than 70 years later Astronauts were walking on the Moon. Compare the "Eliza" program of 50+ years ago to Chat GPT today, and then look 50 years into the future. Now apply the greed and ambitions of people like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk to these technologies and what happens? I'm actually glad I don't have grandchildren...

[Lord Mushroom]

On 2/27/2023 at 1:08 AM, Creamhoven said:

Unfortunatly we have no high culture like Mozart, Davinci and of course the dreamcast these days, so thats no option neither. Classical music for example is pretty much an archive of historic music, with nothing new in sight.

Classical music is still doing well. You just find it as soundtracks to movies.

[Lord Mushroom]

On 2/27/2023 at 10:55 PM, Creamhoven said:

There are no contemporary composers that are widely known. The last big name casual listeners may be familiar with is Karajan and he is a conducter long gone.

John Williams and Hans Zimmer.

[Lord Mushroom]

23 minutes ago, almightytodd said:

My concern with AI isn't with the AI itself - it's that it's being applied to a Capitalist system that rewards profit growth above all else - which will inevitably widen the income gap and eliminate the middle class.

In the beginning, the income gap will widen as robots/AI replace simple jobs, lowering the wages of low skilled workers.

 

But when almost all jobs are taken by robots/AI, the government will give everyone the same amount of money. Only successful business owners will have a higher income than others.

[Keatah]

Why does AI have to be developed in the first place if it's as bad/injurious as many claim? Just. Stop. Developing.

[CapitanClassic]

40 minutes ago, almightytodd said:

Compare the "Eliza" program of 50+ years ago to Chat GPT today, and then look 50 years into the future. Now apply the greed and ambitions of people like Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk to these technologies and what happens?

I don’t see a huge difference between Eliza and ChstGPT. ChstGPT has a larger database, and can “understand” natural language better, but it still boils down to placing the next highest probable word after each other. 
 

As for this leading to the middle class disappearing, I am not worried at all. The middle class is disappearing, but that is because there are more of them becoming the moderately wealthy class. Additionally, the poorest 20% of people have it much better than the middle class of 50-70 years ago. Technology makes everyone’s life better, and the more menial jobs that can be automated away, the better.