Circus Convoy

[RevEng]

3 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

Well, as much as we all appreciate the time and effort quality homebrews take to get in the hands of users, they aren’t really wrong. They sold people a new product, professionally developed, marketed, and produced, using a fully established business. They paid taxes. They paid employees. They used real factories. 

With the exception of paying employees, there are plenty of homebrews that tick all those boxes. That sizeable difference is mostly in your head.

 

3 hours ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

as for the game - I liked it. It’s well made. Not my favorite game ever, but worth the $50 I paid for it at least. I can’t always say the same of homebrews I’ve purchased. 
 

homebrews are like rock bands. Some are truly great, some are mildly entertaining. Many of them are… not. 

Their game is good, so therefore it's not a homebrew? I take it you think every commercial 2600 and 7800 game is good then? Or maybe, just maybe, game quality can be independent of the homebrew/commercial category.

[JagChris]

I don't think they meant they don't want to be associated with the homebrew community. Otherwise they wouldn't have statements about supporting publishing for it. 

 

It's possible they meant that beyond home brewed traditionally cannabilizing old parts to make new stuff they meant that they were there before the home brew community as professionals developing and publishing for these systems during their commercial life. And this is just in their mind a continuation of that.

 

To them homebrew may mean something overall that formed after a systems mainstream commercial life.

[RevEng]

50 minutes ago, JagChris said:

Otherwise they wouldn't have statements about supporting publishing for it. 

Would you say they're just keen to support homebrew, or keen to sell a bunch of shells they have as overstock?

[JagChris]

18 minutes ago, RevEng said:

Would you say they're just keen to support homebrew, or keen to sell a bunch of shells they have as overstock?

They probably don't mind either.

[Defender_2600]

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

It's possible they meant that beyond home brewed traditionally cannabilizing old parts to make new stuff

 In 2010 I started buying new cartridges in the AA store and Al was already using new parts including the Melody Board.

 

https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l=page_view&p=atariage_melody

 

1 hour ago, JagChris said:

To them homebrew may mean something overall that formed after a systems mainstream commercial life.

 So you are exactly saying that Circus Convoy is homebrew.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Defender_2600

[JagChris]

1 minute ago, Defender_2600 said:

 In 2010 I started buying new cartridges in the AA store and Al was already using new parts including the Melody Board.

 

 

 So you are exactly saying that Circus Convoy is homebrew.

On your first point I said 'traditionally'. I think it was one of the points they brought up.

 

On your second point I am not saying anything. I don't really care whether it is or not.

 

I was trying to put myself in their headspace considering 'homebrew' and why they may have wanted to make the distinction. The individual company they formed may be after like the rest of them but they themselves are not. And they may see themselves as just a continuation of what came before. Just under a different name.

 

But I really don't know. 

[Defender_2600]

26 minutes ago, JagChris said:

On your first point I said 'traditionally'. I think it was one of the points they brought up.

 

So let me say that speaking of the Atari homebrew scene, I have been identifying it with AtariAge and AA store for at least two decades, traditionally. And I think I'm not the only one.

[JagChris]

16 minutes ago, Defender_2600 said:

 

So let me say that speaking of the Atari homebrew scene, I have been identifying it with AtariAge and AA store for at least two decades, traditionally. And I think I'm not the only one.

Yeah. And if even one of those artists or programmers worked on the system professionally during its mainstream life could they call themselves a continuation as well? Assuming my hypothesizing was on the mark? Zero page homebrew was also their testers IIRC. They literally have homebrew right in their name.

 

This is also my attempt to understand what their distinction may be. I think it was the John Hancock video where this was mentioned. But it wasn't clear to me what they meant.

 

Like I said I don't know really.

[Jetboot Jack]

Personally I think the definition of "homebrew" is the issue - for some homebrew == amateur maybe?

 

As someone who makes video games for a living I hate the idea that anyone pushes things into boxes so much, give them names to identify them as a type or sub-genre.

 

Of the 2600 games I have recently purchased from AA - like Game of The Bear, Ninjish Guy in Low-Res World, Doggone It, Draconian, Juno First or Champ Games titles like Zoo Keeper, QYX, Gorf Arcade - none of them are amateur or what I would consider Homebrew, they are small production run titles for sure and their quality and polish are AMAZING.

 

Perhaps it is an old notion of homebrews being hacks of existing games or simplistic in their design and execution that makes some feel a need to distance themselves from the term?

 

For me, none of the titles I have purchased are anything other than high quality releases that I feel should lose the label homebrew and embrace the fact they are just fantastic releases!

 

Many developers now as in the 80's are solo practitioners, making things on their own - that should not diminish their achievement with labels that "pigeon hole" them, then or now, making a game and taking it all the way to digital and physical publication is a huge undertaking!

 

sTeVE

Edited March 20, 2023 by Jetboot Jack

[+Karl G]

Sure; part of the issue is that those not familiar with the retro gaming scene don't understand how the word "homebrew" is used, and make incorrect assumptions about it. I don't think that means that the term needs to be avoided to avoid confusion, though. If you make a game to sell to the existing market for "homebrew" games, and appear on a show dedicated to showcasing said games to promote your game, then it's probably a good idea to understand the community you are entering, and how such terms are used within the community.

[Jetboot Jack]

"the issue is that those not familiar with the retro gaming scene don't understand how the word "homebrew" is used" - I agree context is important, but in this case the people we are talking about actually made games long before the community existed - so their context and perspective is very different I imagine. After all the word homebrew means created by enthusiasts rather than commercial entities.

 

"I don't think that means that the term needs to be avoided to avoid confusion" - I agree, I was just saying I feel it fails to encompass just how great the games being made now are and how much they equal and often exceed the commercial releases in terms of quality of game.

 

I guess I see it being used as a dismissive term, which is annoying. It's the same way I dislike the term "indie" as a tag for certain games, most of us from the 80's made what would now be viewed as "indie" games, but that box never existed until the rise of the 200+ person team - and then smaller teams and creative people got put in a labeled box - by that token 99% of games before 1985 are indie games...

 

sTeVE

 

 

 

 

[+Mitch]

I prefer the term "modern release" instead of "homebrew" but the old name seems to have stuck at this point.

 

Mitch

[+wongojack]

I have not yet purchased Circus Convoy, and I've made no attempt to pirate it.  Is there a rom available for individual purchase yet?  Last time I checked, you had to buy the $100 edition to get the rom.

 

Anyway, the release was very exciting, but there were several things about the interviews and release communication that I would consider went past just plain "neutral" when Crane and Kitchen were describing homebrews.  They seemed to go out of their way to talk about it in interviews and then made sweeping statements about the lack of available tools for 2600 development.  I remember one "homebrewer" here on AtariAge commenting about the software tools by saying something like "Sure they may have developed new tools, but they must have used DASM."  Yeah

 

They didn't really show any awareness of the very high quality homebrews that have been released or the additional hardware used to play and develop them. 

 

The thing is - we don't know.  They haven't really made much of an attempt to engage with this forum and the MANY detailed discussions and discoveries that happen here.  Actually, I'm grateful because it was the release of Circus Convoy that kinda made me realize that I'm not really interested in playing every homebrew.  I'm more interested in supporting the developers in this community.  Since Audacity doesn't really show up here, they are only on the outside orbit of my interests.

 

Game looks totally awesome though!

[polyex]

IMHO , if you write a game and get paid then you are a professional. I prefer to think of these "homebrew" games less as homebrew and more as the products of small (sometimes very small) developers/companies and that the Atari VCS is still alive , like back in the day, because of them. Some of these new games are superior to games written in the 1980s. I pretty much just play Atari and other retro systems on my TV and I own a PS and Xbox, but they are not hooked up anymore.

[John Stamos Mullet]

On 3/19/2023 at 4:38 PM, RevEng said:

With the exception of paying employees, there are plenty of homebrews that tick all those boxes. That sizeable difference is mostly in your head.

 

Their game is good, so therefore it's not a homebrew? I take it you think every commercial 2600 and 7800 game is good then? Or maybe, just maybe, game quality can be independent of the homebrew/commercial category.

They started an actual company. They hired people and hired factories. That’s a pretty significant difference.

 

and nothing I said indicated hat good=not a homebrew. I said it was good. I said also some homebrews are good to great. As good as, if not better than this particular game. 
 

but there’s a pretty large number of genuine homebrew games, especially on the 2600, that are varying levels of doo-doo. 

 

[Albert]

7 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

They started an actual company. They hired people and hired factories. That’s a pretty significant difference.

Starting a company is easy to do.  Do you know that they actually hired anyone?  As in, they have someone on payroll, rather than just paying people to do specific things, like designing artwork for their games?  Just curious.  As for "hired factories", you mean they had other companies do the printing for their manuals, labels, boxes and such?  Manufactured their circuit boards, and so forth?  This is no different at all from what I and others do. 

7 minutes ago, John Stamos Mullet said:

but there’s a pretty large number of genuine homebrew games, especially on the 2600, that are varying levels of doo-doo. 

And there are a ton of fantastic homebrew games that rival or exceed many games released commercially back in the 2600's heyday.  Audacity Games currently has a sample size of one, and while Circus Convoy is a good game, I don't feel this is a fair metric to use by pointing out there are poor homebrew games on the 2600.  Of course there are, given the volume of games being created on the platform.

 

 ..Al

[Jetboot Jack]

9 hours ago, Albert said:

Starting a company is easy to do.  Do you know that they actually hired anyone?  As in, they have someone on payroll, rather than just paying people to do specific things, like designing artwork for their games?  Just curious.  As for "hired factories", you mean they had other companies do the printing for their manuals, labels, boxes and such?  Manufactured their circuit boards, and so forth?  This is no different at all from what I and others do. 

And there are a ton of fantastic homebrew games that rival or exceed many games released commercially back in the 2600's heyday.  Audacity Games currently has a sample size of one, and while Circus Convoy is a good game, I don't feel this is a fair metric to use by pointing out there are poor homebrew games on the 2600.  Of course there are, given the volume of games being created on the platform.

 

 ..Al

100% agree...

[Silver Back]

Regardless of whatever semantics Audacity wanted to use, it seems they didn't reach their desired goal.  When I Google them any information is from 2021.  Their Twitter, Facebook and other social media has nothing new since 2021.  I haven't heard any updates or announcements since 2021. 

 

If they are a "professional company" with hired employees then they aren't doing much to keep the brand alive. Or anything.  They would be announcing progress for Casey's Gold and new projects and pushing product to keep employees paid. 

 

idk what their end goal was but I don't think they achieved what they wanted to.  until I hear from them I assume they aren't pressing forward. 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Silver Back
Grammar and spelling

[+wongojack]

3 minutes ago, Silver Back said:

Regardless of whatever semantics Audacity wanted to use, it seems they didn't reach their desired goal.  When I Google them and any information is from 2021.  Their Twitter, Facebook and other social media has nothing new since 2021.  I haven't heard any updates or announcements since 2021. 

 

If they are a "professional company" with hired employees then they aren't doing much to keep the brand alive. Or anything.  They would be announcing progress for Casey's Gold and new projects and pushing product to keep employees paid. 

 

idk what their end goal was but I don't think they achieved what they wanted until until I hear from them I assume they aren't pressing forward. 

 

Another sign that they preferred to stay separate from the existing community.  They could have easily learned reasonable expectations for Circus Convoy by talking to those in this forum who have released and sold games over the years, but it seemed they thought they could somehow swoop in and outsell every homebrew ever released.

[+DrVenkman]

2 hours ago, Silver Back said:

Regardless of whatever semantics Audacity wanted to use, it seems they didn't reach their desired goal.  When I Google them any information is from 2021.  Their Twitter, Facebook and other social media has nothing new since 2021.  I haven't heard any updates or announcements since 2021. 

 

If they are a "professional company" with hired employees then they aren't doing much to keep the brand alive. Or anything.  They would be announcing progress for Casey's Gold and new projects and pushing product to keep employees paid. 

 

idk what their end goal was but I don't think they achieved what they wanted to.  until I hear from them I assume they aren't pressing forward. 

 

Is their QR code-based online leaderboard still active? I’m just curious if they’re still maintaining that or not. Might give a clue as to whether they intend to continue participation in the market, however they label themselves. 

[Zonie]

Here's a question. Does anyone know if the game is on an Eprom or a mask Rom, or???

[alex_79]

2 hours ago, Zonie said:

Here's a question. Does anyone know if the game is on an Eprom or a mask Rom, or???

I don't know for sure, but I really doubt they're using mask roms, as they're only economically viable for high production numbers.

Most probably the game uses an OTP 27C010 EPROM (128k x 8 bits). Which is what they advertise on the store section on their site, and one of the eprom type supported by their cartridge board design.

 

EDIT:

By looking at the pcb picture, you can see that they have extra contacts (4 in total, 2 on each side) on the two "prongs" meant to open the 2600 cartridge port dist door. The one on the right in that picture is clearly connected to the "Vpp" pin of the eprom. That PCB is designed so that the eprom can be programmed on-board, which suggests that's what they actually used for the game.

Edited March 21, 2023 by alex_79

[alex_79]

14 minutes ago, alex_79 said:

I don't know for sure, but I really doubt they're using mask roms, as they're only economically viable for high production numbers.

Actually, I forgot that the roms are "signed", so that each one has a different QR code to associate to each buyer. That definitely excludes the possibility of them being on mask roms.

[JagChris]

11 hours ago, wongojack said:

Another sign that they preferred to stay separate from the existing community.  They could have easily learned reasonable expectations for Circus Convoy by talking to those in this forum who have released and sold games over the years, but it seemed they thought they could somehow swoop in and outsell every homebrew ever released.

Its too bad there is such a cynical vibe to all this instead of well wishing. 

 

 

[Bill Loguidice]

9 hours ago, JagChris said:

Its too bad there is such a cynical vibe to all this instead of well wishing. 

 

 

To counter that a bit, there's always been a bit of an "edge" to David Crane (some would say arrogance) and he's always seemed to err on the side of maximum reward versus doing something for other, less capitalistic reasons. Of course, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's his right, it's generally served him well over the years, we wouldn't have had Activision and the rise in 2600 software quality without it, etc. With that said, at the same time, his last few public projects, including the failed Pitfall!-like reboot Kickstarter and Audacity Games, seemingly, have both been driven by UNREALISTIC monetary expectations. Basically banking on unprecedented success in each area (or bust!) for nothing more than the name(s) attached rather than the overall effort (the Kickstarter was especially "lazy"). So yeah, I can see how that can be disappointing to people who don't know his backstory, never have met him, don't take alternative ways of thinking into consideration (i.e., he's really not your average enthusiast/homebrewer by any stretch), etc. 

 

I guess that's a long-winded way of saying I wouldn't be surprised if there are no new projects from Audacity Games.