Help me choose a controller for emulation

[Marcos Moutta]

I'm ok with choosing a controller from practically any console or computer - I can always build or buy an adapter to make it DirectInput/Xinput. I'm also ok with modern controllers like Razer, Logitech etc but I've never tried any so I have no idea about their quality.

My requirements are 4 front buttons, 2 easily accessible shoulder buttons, 2 options buttons and a digital Dpad with 4 well defined directions. Having 2 extra buttons either on the front or on the shoulder would be nice for PlayStation and Saturn compatibility but it's not a must. Real micro-switches would be a game changer, but I don't know of any controllers that use them and fit my criteria.

 

Now, those requirements are really broad, but I've tried many controllers that fit them but I didn't like anyway. Here's them and the reasons:

 

• SNES - The Dpad is not ideal. The directions are not well defined to the touch even though it has a clear cross shape, because the rubber mechanism itslf is flawed (although maybe my units are just... 30 years old). The face buttons are great however, but only when the controller is relatively new.
• Xbox One - Great Dpad but unresponsive face buttons and ludicrous price (also discontinued in favour of a controller that doesn't have a Dpad)
• Saturn - Dpad is not ideal. It's round instead of cross shaped and wobbly but still mushy. It should be shaped like a cross for easily determining directions. Also, the face buttons are not in a diamond layout, which is really problematic for games like Robotron, Xeno Crisis, Smash TV etc.
• Playstation 1-4 - Just awful. Stiff, unresponsive buttons and a split Dpad that makes rocking back and forth impossible. I can't even play Pac-Man with any accuracy. Even the analog sticks are hard to use since they have no notches. I have no idea why people like them so much.
• Game Cube and N64 - possibly the worst Dpads I've ever used. The analog stick is so good it almost makes up for it, but the button layout only works for their games anyway.
• Dreamcast - I keep having weird issues with the Dpad on this one, the cardinal directions go out of whack almost like the whole Dpad rotated a few degrees. Down is either down left or down right, for example. Also comically bulky.
• Xbox 360 - Second worst Dpad I've ever used.
• Switch Pro - Not even a real Dpad, generally dislike it.

 

The closest I've gotten to a favourite has been the Wii U pro controllers, but now they're discontinued and I've had the same issues with the Dpad that I've had with Dreamcast.

I also deeply love the controls on the Nintendo DSi with its micro-switch Dpad and buttons but that's... a console. No way to use it.

 

Finally, I like the amazing quality you can get on the buttons and joystick of an arcade controller, but I'm not even half as dexterous with a joystick as I am with a Dpad so I'd suffer a lot in hard games like Contra, H.E.R.O., Pac-Man (if it's 8-way) etc. Also, no real solution for the shoulder buttons? Drifting in F-zero is near impossible with an arcade controller (I tried).

 

So, what controllers do you suggest?

[Cynicaster]

With the criteria you've listed you've outright excluded almost everything I can think of, and I have tried a lot of different things for emulation over many years.  

 

What I've come to accept is what should have been very obvious from the get-go; namely, that the "perfect" controller for a general purpose emulation rig is a unicorn that doesn't exist.  No matter what I try, it is usually really good for certain things but not so great for others.  

 

My primary emulation rig uses arcade controls because that works great for the types of games I enjoy.  For "couch" emulation gaming, I use PS3 controllers because I can wirelessly sync up 4 controllers with a single Mayflash dongle, and I already had those controllers sitting in a closet.  I agree the d-pad isn't perfect but I've used worse (I originally had XBOX360 controllers and hated them).  

 

Have you looked into the 8BitDo line of controllers?  Never used one personally, but they come in many different form factors and lots of people seem to like them.  

 

Honestly, my favorite emulation d-pad controller I've ever used is a Logitech Precision I bought, like, 20+ years ago at Radio Shack (see attached pic I found on eBay).  I only use PS3 over this because of the convenience of being cordless.  But the feel of this Logitech is really nice and it works like new still. 

 

  

[Tanooki]

Calling a SNES d-pad not ideal is nearly madness, odds are you have worn out internal contacts.  There's a reason they kept that patent control over the d-pad going for like 30 years plus, nothing matched it for the precision it allowed.  As nice and well kept as mine are, even using the modern external copies for the classic felt a bit tight as it needed to be broken in a bit.

 

And maybe I'm missing something but how is the switch pro controller d-pad fake?  Maybe you just don't like Nintendo d-pads considering you dumped on the N64 one which internally is the same as the NES and SNES.  Gamecube I get, it's a bit too small, fine on the GBA where it was ripped from, but not on a full size pad in that location as it gets a little dodgy for accuracy so I'd never recommend it either.

 

 

Either way you're onto emulation and wanting some solid choices.  I can think of a classic and a modern one, one would work in both 2D and 3D (the modern) and one just for 2D (the classic.)

The classic would be the Gravis Gamepad Pro, basically a mix of the SNES and Playstation 1(non-dual shock) controller.  It's comfy like the PS, feels more like SNES, but has +2 L/R buttons on top.  IT works amazing in emulators going back decades now.

 

But if you want an all in one, the wired(or wireless I guess) 8bitdo SN30 Pro pad, it's a SNES controller basically but with a pair of dual analog sticks that work magnificent.  I only got it recently due to reaperman of all things due to his video finding what few controllers that bitchy analogue pocket dock will pick up and use correctly.  I grabbed one of them and was just amazed, there was zero curve for feel needing to be picked up doing GB, GBC, GBA on the dock...it's great.  And since I did wired since that dumpster fire utterly fails with wireless (at all or retaining it on power off) there's no lag to report as it just works.

[Marcos Moutta]

9 hours ago, Cynicaster said:

What I've come to accept is what should have been very obvious from the get-go; namely, that the "perfect" controller for a general purpose emulation rig is a unicorn that doesn't exist.  No matter what I try, it is usually really good for certain things but not so great for others.

Agreed. This thread was honestly a gigantic copium huff.

 

9 hours ago, Cynicaster said:

Have you looked into the 8BitDo line of controllers?  Never used one personally, but they come in many different form factors and lots of people seem to like them.

I will! Never tried them.

 

9 hours ago, Cynicaster said:

Honestly, my favorite emulation d-pad controller I've ever used is a Logitech Precision I bought, like, 20+ years ago at Radio Shack (see attached pic I found on eBay).  I only use PS3 over this because of the convenience of being cordless.  But the feel of this Logitech is really nice and it works like new still.

Ugh, not an option. The shipping and import taxes kill this kind of niche product for me. Wish I could give it a try.

7 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Calling a SNES d-pad not ideal is nearly madness, odds are you have worn out internal contacts.  There's a reason they kept that patent control over the d-pad going for like 30 years plus, nothing matched it for the precision it allowed.  As nice and well kept as mine are, even using the modern external copies for the classic felt a bit tight as it needed to be broken in a bit.

Probably, yeah. Maybe I'll try the 8bitdo that recreates them!

 

7 hours ago, Tanooki said:

And maybe I'm missing something but how is the switch pro controller d-pad fake?

Doesn't have a pivot. It's just 4 buttons.

 

7 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Maybe you just don't like Nintendo d-pads considering you dumped on the N64 one which internally is the same as the NES and SNES.

Not at all, I grew up with Nintendo! Maybe my N64 controllers are defective? The dpads are super shallow and weird. It's 20 year old hardware after all...

 

7 hours ago, Tanooki said:

Gravis Gamepad Pro

Will give it a try! If I can find one, of course. Probably can't.

 

7 hours ago, Tanooki said:

SN30

Yup, Cynicaster said the same. Again, you're probably right, just because I bought 5 SNES controllers doesn't mean one of them necessarily worked fine. Maybe the Dpad IS good.

 

Thanks, @Cynicaster and @Tanooki! Great recommendations. I'll give them serious consideration

[Tanooki]

@Marcos Moutta No problem.

Odds are in both cases with n64 and snes you have some worn down or damaged in some little way d-pad, d-pad contacts, or the contacts themselves.  I've dealt with them when they go bad, depending, they can be addressed if it's really worth it to bother though.  The cheap and easy fix is some alcohol (91%) on a piece of paper towel or q-tip and firmly go at the black contacts on the bottom side of the rubber contact disc, then do the same on the contact point on the board too and see if that helps.  They tend to get wonky over the decades and it's the first line of trying.  Even then the contacts can age and go a little slower or they start to thin/crack and can affect play, and then you're into replacement ones.  The plastic itself and the board (if not rotted, dirty, or cracked) are the least likely to be an issue there whatever the model.  The N64 D-pad stayed the same from the previous, just as the little ridiculous sized one on GC is just the GBA d-pad probably to save some money, which is fine on GBA given where it is for reach but stinks on GC a bit depending on your hands.

 

The SN30pro USB (or just SN30 if you don't want analog) is really the best bet unless you strongly prefer wireless.  You have no lag, works on anything with a USB jack, had the response and comfort of a new SNES gamepad, or damn near close enough as it felt right like the fresh new SNES Classic Edition pads do.  I have well kept and cared for SNES controllers that work 100%, but even they feel a bit less firm to press than the new ones out of the box from a couple years back where it almost messes with you at first.  The gravis is I guess a little more mushy or something, like a PS1 controller, but has a solid comfort and response you'd get from either that or the SNES so it's a solid choice.

[Marcos Moutta]

2 hours ago, Tanooki said:

@Marcos Moutta No problem.

Odds are in both cases with n64 and snes you have some worn down or damaged in some little way d-pad, d-pad contacts, or the contacts themselves.  I've dealt with them when they go bad, depending, they can be addressed if it's really worth it to bother though.  The cheap and easy fix is some alcohol (91%) on a piece of paper towel or q-tip and firmly go at the black contacts on the bottom side of the rubber contact disc, then do the same on the contact point on the board too and see if that helps.  They tend to get wonky over the decades and it's the first line of trying.  Even then the contacts can age and go a little slower or they start to thin/crack and can affect play, and then you're into replacement ones.  The plastic itself and the board (if not rotted, dirty, or cracked) are the least likely to be an issue there whatever the model.  The N64 D-pad stayed the same from the previous, just as the little ridiculous sized one on GC is just the GBA d-pad probably to save some money, which is fine on GBA given where it is for reach but stinks on GC a bit depending on your hands.

 

The SN30pro USB (or just SN30 if you don't want analog) is really the best bet unless you strongly prefer wireless.  You have no lag, works on anything with a USB jack, had the response and comfort of a new SNES gamepad, or damn near close enough as it felt right like the fresh new SNES Classic Edition pads do.  I have well kept and cared for SNES controllers that work 100%, but even they feel a bit less firm to press than the new ones out of the box from a couple years back where it almost messes with you at first.  The gravis is I guess a little more mushy or something, like a PS1 controller, but has a solid comfort and response you'd get from either that or the SNES so it's a solid choice.

I've seen some videos saying 8 bit do controllers have poor diagonals tho? even a my life in gaming video showing a partial fix

Has this been a addressed?

[Tanooki]

20 minutes ago, Marcos Moutta said:

I've seen some videos saying 8 bit do controllers have poor diagonals tho? even a my life in gaming video showing a partial fix

Has this been a addressed?

No idea, I didn't have a problem controlling anything so far.  I'd have to more extensively screw around with stuff like Gradius or Street FIghter 2/Samurai Shodown to get the diagonals checked better.  I remember their older pads had problems, but this is a newer one, newer model.

[Marcos Moutta]

8 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

No idea, I didn't have a problem controlling anything so far.  I'd have to more extensively screw around with stuff like Gradius or Street FIghter 2/Samurai Shodown to get the diagonals checked better.  I remember their older pads had problems, but this is a newer one, newer model.

just asking to try and not make a bad purchase. this video scared me a little

if the timestamp function didn't work, it's 36:38

[Tanooki]

I see it, and had to search (didn't save), but from what I have tinkered with, it's fine.   Also that's what a 4 year old video?  My controller is maybe 2 months old so they could have quietly addressed it on the units out now...and being wired no worries of any of that supposed slight input lag some feel they feel.  I mean if you're worried, buy one through ebay, give it the two weeks, beat the hell out of it with normal play on games that rely heavy on precision angles light shooters, flight, sf2 and clones and see if it bugs you.  If not, keep it, if it blows, return it.

[Marcos Moutta]

@Tanooki I almost fell for a scam. Thankfully I waited a few days to make the purchase and realized what was going on. Worst part is I would probably not even realize I was scammed and just say the SN30 Pro is a bad controller. Check this tomfoolery out (picture attached)

 

 

[Tanooki]

Yeah that's not good, odds are it's a fraud, not just someone trying to sell them on the side to make a bit if they got some cheap.

[Marcos Moutta]

On 3/31/2023 at 12:19 AM, Tanooki said:

Yeah that's not good, odds are it's a fraud, not just someone trying to sell them on the side to make a bit if they got some cheap.

I've done my research.

The scam is indeed a real controller. It's the same bootleg ones they have on AliExpress, except there the price is way lower and it's pretty clear that it's not the real deal.

I feel bad for the grandmas and grandpas who have to buy things online. Not that I'm a genius, but come on, I'm no dunce either. I mostly know what I'm doing, and I almost fell for it. I'm accustomed to AliExpress and our homegrown Mercado Livre being full of piracy and scams, but never expected Amazon to devolve into the same shitshow that made me never want to collect old games again.

[Reaperman]

On 3/30/2023 at 10:19 PM, Tanooki said:

Yeah that's not good, odds are it's a fraud, not just someone trying to sell them on the side to make a bit if they got some cheap.

Are there even any 8bitdo fakes? There wouldn't be a lot of profit there right? They're just chinaland mass-market cheap controllers, and the ones over at the official 8bitdo store, are as official as whatever a aknes store is, or any of the resellers on amazon. 

 

Much better to fake an official playstation controller or something.  Sony thinks theirs are worth ~$70, and really some of the $15 knockoffs have been significantly better. Especially those later ps3 controllers--talk about flimsy and creeky.

 

For suggestions (probably skipping over some of your requirements, but these are my faves):

• I'm currently trying to train my hands on the 'Gulikit King Kong 2 Pro'--hall-effect all around. I got a pretty deluxe package from china with all the addon parts (stick lengths/xbox-labelled buttons, etc).  The triggers are awfully short throw, low tension, and I play a lot of racing games, so while they work great, muscle memory isn't there yet. it does remember xinput vs hid/switch when it powers off (👍). battery is internal, unfortunately, and there weren't lag stats (here) last I checked. It's an up-and-coming premium controller contender, but it seems to live up to its hype. 'durability first' is an interesting concept for a controller.
• It's replacing my transforming-dpad-version 360 controller as my 'main' controller. While that dpad is the best of the 360's, still not truly great. You get the choice between 'all diagonals,' or 'very tricky diagonals' 
• You mentioned not liking these dpads, but one of my other go-tos is the retrobit wireless saturn, which is known to have next-frame lag, but not dealing with an 8bitdo dpad pretty much makes up for it. (8bitdos are generally less laggy) retrobit does xinput or hid, but forgets that I prefer xinput every time it powers off.  speaking of, all the retrobit wireless sticks drain when off, so it's never really 'ready to go' when I am. They really did nail that dpad, though.  even if it's not your jam.
• also the pdp 360 fightpad has a microswitched stick (similar to a neo geo pad or a neo geo pocket stick). I've heard that has durability issues, but I haven't had problems with either of mine, and xinput just works everywhere. I mostly use it for shmups when I'm too lazy to reach for a stick. there are also versions that have a cross pad vs the microswitched thumbstick (ps3 versions mostly seem this way).  people like those too, but I've never tried one.

Edited April 1, 2023 by Reaperman

[Marcos Moutta]

3 hours ago, Reaperman said:

Are there even any 8bitdo fakes?

Yes. A difference of 10 dollars might seem insignificant to you, but in the third world it's a deal maker. The one on Amaazon is indeed fake

[Marcos Moutta]

@Tanooki It came! Just want to be sure if it's the real deal. Do these pictures look right to you?

 

 

[Tanooki]

Looks right to me to what's in my hand here.

[Reaperman]

I do have one more recommendation, in a different universe than what's probably being looked for here, but ideal for the older, pre-crash systems. The NES version of the of the Epyx 500xj (known as the Konix Speedking in Euroland). The NES version has more buttons than most 500xj's, including kind of annoying membrane-buttons for start/select. The stick and main buttons are microswitched with very heavy/feedbacky switches. It's an odd setup too (here's a vid with internals). 

 

Despite being an NES controller, I mostly recommend it for older systems than that. it's two action buttons are perfect for 7800, which never got it's own 500xj variant.  I use the nes ones with NT Mini, MiSTer (via SNAC or daemonbite), and PC (via usb adapter). 

 

Its rounded base can cause hand discomfort, especially when getting started with it.  And even I still switch hands every 5-10 min or so on it. Still totally worth it for that stick feedback. Probably not what you're looking for, but maybe it'll help somebody wandering in from google 10 years from now. And since you mentioned microswitches, you might appreciate this stick's feedback when the mood strikes for more ancient gaming.

 

I did an old video on them, very durable, very accurate. An absolute must for NT Mini gamers, and a nice-to-have everywhere else.

 

 

Edited April 5, 2023 by Reaperman

[Marcos Moutta]

On 4/4/2023 at 9:18 PM, Tanooki said:

Looks right to me to what's in my hand here.

This is my favourite controller. Of all time.

Not hyperbole.

[Tanooki]

Loving the suggestion that much eh?  It's quite comfy, it's what SNES controllers would have been had it come out just a few years later I'd like to think.