EricG76 Posted March 22, 2023 Share Posted March 22, 2023 I love this forum! Long time lurker, first time poster... I have a Sony 4k TV that is working great on most games with a few exceptions. A bit about my setup...using my 2600 light sixer I played as a kid. The picture was very dark, color bleed to right of objects, and very fuzzy so I refurbished and upgraded all components (kit from console5) and got new transformer power supply. All that fixed the darkness but heavy static and color bleed didn't go away so I installed a Composite Mod kit with a brightness adjust pot and added shielded cables. There is a some color bleed on some games but overall very enjoyable video. Oh, also the video/audio goes to my A/V receiver before going to TV through HDMI. Audio goes to external speakers. I am mostly playing with my new Harmony Encore cart. There are 2 issues and are only on certain games: -Asteroids and a few other games will show the game for a fraction of a second and then go black and stays black but audio still works. On other games like Empire Strikes Back the screen goes black for a few moments every time I blow up an At-At and then comes back on. -Rampage! and some other games will only display a very small screen (not stretching to screen height). I set video to Game mode and turned off all the auto HDR and every other "auto" feature I could find to no avail. I also did this on the receiver settings. I tried using original game cartridges with same results. Sorry this was so long. Please help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prizrak Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 I have a similar problem with my older Emerson tv I use for gaming. I didn't do a huge amount of testing but thought it was my consult. I think it has to do with a flat TV doesn't work like a CRT and some games that have unstable scanline count or something in the programming that doesn't translate to it working on modern TV's. I switched to a CRT and hadn't had problems since. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricG76 Posted March 23, 2023 Author Share Posted March 23, 2023 Thanks for the advice Prizrak! If i had a place for a crt i might consider it but this is what i have to work with so i am hoping to get a setting work around of some sort if anyone has any ideas unless something is wrong with my original console. I played Frantic (fun version of Berzerk BTW) last night and once i got to high levels where ther were tons of robots at one time, the screen would go black for a a few seconds until there wasnt so much going on, then it comes back on. Is all the flashing confusing the tv or could it be the TIA or another chip is going bad? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 Nothing wrong with your TV or the AV receiver...the problem is the games themselves. Empire Strikes Back, Buck Rogers, Star Master....there is quite a list of games that play havoc with modern AV stuff today. The problem is that many of the games didn't stick to the strict scan line rules on their programming. As a result on some of the games or actions that may occur in the game, it causes the scan line counts of the image to go out of spec. Older CRTs had a LOT of tolerance built in to allow for this loosey goosey type programming back in the day. Modern displays are NOT nearly as tolerant of this. So you end up with a loss of signal sync as a process and it might take the system a second or two to recover or it might no at all. And this will vary from display to display. My Sony LCD in the game room doesn't really have any issues with most of the games, but Buck Rogers title screen is a scrambled scrolling mess on my TV. Once I press reset the actual game play screen is fine and I'm good to go. ESB on my setup doesn't blank out but I do see the screen shift down for a sec when I blow up an AT-AT. Star Master has never been an issue for my setup. So it really depends on what you are using to display the images on. I will also state that installing AV upgrades doesn't improve the issue and in fact, can make it appear worse because composite and s-video tend to be even stricter on the spec requirements for them to work. So... blame the games not the display you are using. The only solutions I can offer are... Try different displays as again, this will vary from display to display on how severe it may or may not be from some of those problem games. Use an external scaler that seems to better handle these issues. The RetroTink5x has an additional buffer mode in it to help minimize this issue on many of the games for instance. Stick to keeping and using an older CRT for those problem games or through emulation on your PC or mobile device. I'm sure others will chime in with more details on this and possible other solutions for them but that is pretty much the gist of what you are experiencing and why. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricG76 Posted March 23, 2023 Author Share Posted March 23, 2023 Thanks CrossBow, that was very informative and at least I have an understanding of the issue. I have tried several hack and homebrew versions of Asteroids with the same results which is a bummer. Does that also explain why some games only display really small on the screen or is that a different issue? It displays right in the middle of the screen, I assume at the original 280ish pixels high. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 18 minutes ago, EricG76 said: Thanks CrossBow, that was very informative and at least I have an understanding of the issue. I have tried several hack and homebrew versions of Asteroids with the same results which is a bummer. Does that also explain why some games only display really small on the screen or is that a different issue? It displays right in the middle of the screen, I assume at the original 280ish pixels high. Not sure about why you get small image of the screen. If I were to guess, whatever image the game is outputting, might be something your TV doesn't know what to do with and how to scale it up properly. I've not seen that specific issue with any games, then again, I don't know that I've really tried to play the 2600 version of Rampage in a very long time LOL! I can also tell you that part of the reason why the games in my setup don't cause more issues is due to how I have everything connected through different equipment in my game room that is able to clean some of this up. All of the composite and s-video upgraded consoles go into my Extron 7SC AV converter/scaler/switcher. As the description implies, it accepts most of the analog video formats, converts and scales them to an output resolution I set and as a standard VGA signal. I then pass that VGA output into my OSSC and then to my AV receiver, and finally my TV. The Receiver is really just a passthrough and doesn't do anything to the video signal. I also have all of the different image options disabled on my Sony to minimize image oddness and lag as much as possible. So the Extron is likely cleaning some of that up before it sends it back out through the VGA to my OSSC. But Buck Rogers is still one game that has a mess of a title screen and I think is the only game I've found to still be an issue. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricG76 Posted March 23, 2023 Author Share Posted March 23, 2023 16 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said: Not sure about why you get small image of the screen. If I were to guess, whatever image the game is outputting, might be something your TV doesn't know what to do with and how to scale it up properly. I've not seen that specific issue with any games, then again, I don't know that I've really tried to play the 2600 version of Rampage in a very long time LOL! I was wanting to share the fun of smashing buildings and eating innocent people with my girls! The small display size made it unplayable though... I also have this size issue on Missile Control. I think I might hook up my old 4-switch woody that still uses the rf cable to see if those issue happen there too. Although last time I tried it, the screen was shifted down, cutting off the bottom parts of games. That is why I started fixing up my sixer in the first place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 minute ago, EricG76 said: I was wanting to share the fun of smashing buildings and eating innocent people with my girls! The small display size made it unplayable though... I also have this size issue on Missile Control. I think I might hook up my old 4-switch woody that still uses the rf cable to see if those issue happen there too. Although last time I tried it, the screen was shifted down, cutting off the bottom parts of games. That is why I started fixing up my sixer in the first place! Can you up a picture of what you are seeing exactly on these two games. Maybe someone else has seen it and can chime in. I actually like Rampage, but I prefer to play the 7800 version more when I want to play a round or 10. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricG76 Posted March 23, 2023 Author Share Posted March 23, 2023 I will post screen photo tonight if I can remember. It's playable, but you have to be right in front of tv or it is too small. I like to play from the comfort of my couch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 With most consoles the video chip generates everything with the video signal - number of scanlines, the vertical sync, etc. On the 2600 those are controlled by the program, not the video chip. Older TVs were much more tolerant of out-of-spec signals than modern TVs, so programmers were not always aware if they were generating minor variations in scanline counts or sync signal. Some modern TVs are not as forgiving, and will often blank the image if the signal is out-of-spec. Checking with Developer Mode in the 7.0 pre-release build of Stella I see VSYNC! for Asteroids, which means it's not generating the VSYNC signal correctly. Your TV doesn't like that. Empire Strikes Back has a known issue with the scanline count changing when you blow up an AT AT. On an old TV you might notice a slight jitter in the image, while some modern TVs like yours will blank the image whenever the scanline count changes. 4 hours ago, EricG76 said: I played Frantic (fun version of Berzerk BTW) last night and once i got to high levels where ther were tons of robots at one time, the screen would go black for a a few seconds until there wasnt so much going on, then it comes back on. Is all the flashing confusing the tv or could it be the TIA or another chip is going bad? Thanks! This is the same variable scanline count issue as with Empire Strikes Back. I'm not done with Frantic yet and need to optimize a number of routines. Until that's done the later levels will generate too many scanlines when there's a lot of robots onscreen. The Left Difficulty A = Max Robot Stress Test is there for when I work on optimizing the game. 3 hours ago, EricG76 said: I have tried several hack and homebrew versions of Asteroids with the same results which is a bummer. Since you've tried Frantic I assume you have a Harmony Cart - have you tried Space Rocks? You might also find this informative, I helped Chris with this by analyzing issues he was encountering with Battlezone (which you might also experience on your TV). At 10:34 he goes over the issue you're seeing with Empire Strikes Back. Hmm, Empire Strikes Back also has a VSYNC issue. Probably closer to spec than Asteroids otherwise it would be blank all the time on your TV like Asteroids is. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillDMatt Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 have the same issue on Empire Strikes Back as well, Asteroids runs fine. My set up is the Vader, UAV modded to a RetroTink 2X Pro to an LG 1080P TV 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 @Albert FYI - something's wrong with rank 1 image If I open image in a new tab I get this: <?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?> <Error> <Code>AccessDenied</Code> <Message>Access Denied</Message> <RequestId>S70TJWCE4HTDM11W</RequestId> <HostId>KobrqApIigvyFac5ukgkRHcEmJTeEiTcQdvqMcFYlIWSwdEu5ZNbfpzLG2HkdjrID0DtvlgEV6I=</HostId> </Error> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricG76 Posted March 23, 2023 Author Share Posted March 23, 2023 Thanks for the video link and all the extra info. At the end of the video it mentions VSYNC fixed versions available on AtariAge for Battlezone, Empire, Warlords, Fastfood, & Moon Patrol. Gotta hunt those down. See this mentioned at 17:28 part of vid... Unfortunately Space Rocks didn't work for me either. Once I leave the menu screen I can get a couple of shots off and then it blanks out too. I have quickly become a big fan of your work though! I did just find Asteroids (Menu Version) by Omegamatrix is supposed to fix the VSYNC issues. I will test that tonight too. I will post that link here for whoever is having this issue in the future: Seems like CRTs although are more forgiving, they are also becoming increasingly rare so fixes to the games seem to be the best long term solution if possible to future proof these classics. I looked into the RetroTink5x CrossBow mentioned but that is out of my price range for fixing a few games. Might be worth it for hardcore retro gamers but I just want to play Atari with my kids and relive some of my childhood lo-res glory! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 8 minutes ago, EricG76 said: Seems like CRTs although are more forgiving, they are also becoming increasingly rare so fixes to the games seem to be the best long term solution if possible to future proof these classics. I looked into the RetroTink5x CrossBow mentioned but that is out of my price range for fixing a few games. Might be worth it for hardcore retro gamers but I just want to play Atari with my kids and relive some of my childhood lo-res glory! Yes the Tink5x Pro is an investment to be sure. The route I took cost me less but takes up a LOT more space and required a lot more hardware vs the small box of a Tink5x. So it just depends. The extron 7SC I use is designed for rack mounting as it was a commercial AV device and not consumer level. But, they are relatively cheap to get and it had the options I was looking for at that time. The OSSC is also now becoming more difficult to find and expensive when you do so I'm glad I happen to pick up mine when I did several years back when they were much cheaper. So it is best if you can find those fixed versions of the roms and just use those going forward. I thought there was a thread that consolidated those but maybe not? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted March 23, 2023 Share Posted March 23, 2023 1 hour ago, EricG76 said: Unfortunately Space Rocks didn't work for me either. Hmm.... I seem to recall something something about some ARM games not working on some Harmony carts... Found it - there's an issue with a specific revision to the ARM chip. Try the Space Rocks that batari posted in his first reply of this topic. If that works you'll want to also get the other ROMs that batari posted in his later replies in that topic. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricG76 Posted March 24, 2023 Author Share Posted March 24, 2023 6 hours ago, SpiceWare said: Hmm.... I seem to recall something something about some ARM games not working on some Harmony carts... Found it - there's an issue with a specific revision to the ARM chip. Try the Space Rocks that batari posted in his first reply of this topic. If that works you'll want to also get the other ROMs that batari posted in his later replies in that topic. That file works great for me! The game is terrific, I love the vector look, the options, and the ships that explode into more ships. Also Asteroids Menu worked perfectly.🙂 The Empire file that was supposed to be fixed still cuts out when there is an explosion. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricG76 Posted March 24, 2023 Author Share Posted March 24, 2023 13 hours ago, -^CrossBow^- said: Can you up a picture of what you are seeing exactly on these two games. Maybe someone else has seen it and can chime in. I actually like Rampage, but I prefer to play the 7800 version more when I want to play a round or 10. Here is the photo showing Missile Control taking up about a 9th of the screen. Rampage looks the same. You can also see the color bleed or ghosting (not sure which) to the right of the rocket, It looks worse on the photo than IRL. Some games look worse, especially on a lighter background. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 Not only is it showing in a small window...but there are quite a few graphical issues as well if that is supposed to be missile command? I've never seen anything like that from the 2600 with a game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 5 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said: ... if that is supposed to be missile command ... It's "Missile Control", a different game: http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-2600-vcs-missile-control_11805.html It's a PAL only release, but there's a NTSC conversion (by @Thomas Jentzsch) that you can find here. It displays 274 scanlines, and apparently that particular TV doesn't like that at all. "Rampage" also displays 275/276 lines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+-^CrossBow^- Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 19 minutes ago, alex_79 said: It's "Missile Control", a different game: http://www.atarimania.com/game-atari-2600-vcs-missile-control_11805.html It's a PAL only release, but there's a NTSC conversion (by @Thomas Jentzsch) that you can find here. It displays 274 scanlines, and apparently that particular TV doesn't like that at all. "Rampage" also displays 275/276 lines. Oh wow! See I'd never heard of that one. Interesting! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex_79 Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 6 minutes ago, -^CrossBow^- said: Oh wow! See I'd never heard of that one. Interesting! If you have a compatible trak-ball or mouse, be sure to try out the trak-ball conversion! You can find the roms (although they might not be the latest versions actually sold in the store) in this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted March 24, 2023 Share Posted March 24, 2023 8 hours ago, EricG76 said: That file works great for me! The game is terrific, I love the vector look, the options, and the ships that explode into more ships. Also Asteroids Menu worked perfectly.🙂 Great! The Magna-mine is the "Killer Satellite" from Asteroids' sequel, Asteroids Deluxe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Like us on Facebook
Follow us on Twitter
AtariAge on Instagram
Watch us on YouTube
Chat on Discord
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.