+-^CrossBow^- Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 4 hours ago, 4ever2600 said: That is so weird on the old Adventure gfx data! Maybe the bat was originally going to be some kind of bird or something? Just a character placeholder maybe. That is an awesome find! Well... Since the dragons already kinda look like big ducks. Maybe those 'birds' were actually supposed to be baby dragons that randomly walked around taking the stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergun Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 8 hours ago, Tempest said: I'm actually grateful that they weren't interested. If they had taken everything then most likely we'd never have seen this lost prototype. I love the idea of computer museums preserving all this history before it's destroyed, but in reality they seem to just sit on stuff and it never gets shared with the public (they may not even be able to due to copyright issues). I'm actually in the process of working with someone who donated all their items to a museum who is a bit dismayed that they don't seem to be interested in doing anything with it. He's now in the process of trying to get copies of his games so they can be shared with the community, but we're not sure how that will play out. 100% agreed. We have had several instances of scenarios like this happen over the years. One recent high profile example is Keystone Cannonball. Here we are, YEARS later, and the rom is still locked away from (in essence) 99.9% of the very people who would actually give a care about it. And I would bet dollars to donuts that Dan Kitchen himself would be dismayed at this fact (how it was basically mishandled) and would NEVER have agreed to have done so otherwise. Hidden Palace, Gaming Alexandria, Video Game History Foundation, National Video Game Museum, SNES Central, Unseen64, etc. More and more of these “preservation places” have popped up over the years. Why are there so many of them? And how does a donator choose one? Should donators be asking questions? Such as… Who owns them? Who runs them? What are their policy’s? Do they share resources or do they compete with one another? Etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 What you describe is true for many museums. Not only video gaming related ones. Many have huge collections, with large parts of their inventory not even cataloged properly. And every now and then there are surprising discoveries in their archives. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carlsson Posted March 24 Share Posted March 24 Back in 2011, I was part of arranging a video gaming exhibition at the technical museum. During planning, I got a sneak peak in their warehouse, and they had a bit of interesting stuff, but alas no curator knowledgeable or interested in it. There were talks if they would take on volunteers (collectors) to help them sort through what they got, but it faded as soon as it was mentioned. Also it is true that if they get donations, at best they'll take photos and post on their website, then off to the storage room. They generally have 0% interest in getting things running, or if they ever start it up and it breaks down, that is the final condition of the item until they clear the storage and send everything to recycling. During our expo, I believe one person from the staff stopped by to see how it went. When we were finished and packing up, nobody showed up to wish us goodbye. To them, our video gaming exhibition was an attraction to draw a few more visitors at the expense of lending the room for free. Despite being a technical museum with some home computer and video game console material in the collection, they had just as little interest in the topic as if we were phone collectors or model railway collectors running an expo. Then again a museum is not a library. The museum should showcase a section of typical items, usually the ones visitors have any relation to. Here in Sweden, we have the gaming company Embracer Group who are trying to obtain a collection of every video game ever made (which of course is impossible, and despite the owner is a multi millionaire, they would be utterly lucky to even obtain 15-20% of everything). It is still not clear what they will do with the collection, if they will rent it to various parties, if they will do any form of digital preservation of what is not already preserved (again, copyright is a big issue in this case) or if the owner will just use it as his personal toys since he used his (company) money to obtain it. Still it feels a little more hopeful than a museum, mainly because Embracer at least pays market level money for the items instead of expecting donations. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 25 Share Posted March 25 While searching for more Adventure code hidden in known ROMs (no luck), I stumbled over similarities between Adventure and Superman. Sonar (Adventure proto) Adventure Superman $f7a0 lda #$ff ;2 sta ram_98 ;3 ldy #$04 ;2 jsr $f4e7 ;6 rts ;6 $f7aa $f8a5 $fea7 inc ram_E3 ;5 inc ram_CF ;5 inc ram_D6 ;5 lda ram_E3 ;3 lda ram_CF ;3 lda ram_D6 ;3 cmp #$08 ;2 cmp #$08 ;2 cmp #$08 ;2 bne $f7b6 ;2/3 bne $f8b1 ;2/3 bne $feb3 ;2/3 lda #$00 ;2 lda #$00 ;2 lda #$00 ;2 sta ram_E3 ;3 sta ram_CF ;3 sta ram_D6 ;3 $f7b6 lda ram_E3 ;3 and #$02 ;2 beq $f7c7 ;2/3 lda #$67 ;2 sta ram_E1 ;3 lda #$fd ;2 sta ram_E2 ;3 jmp $f7cf ;3 $f7c7 lda #$6f ;2 sta ram_E1 ;3 lda #$fd ;2 sta ram_E2 ;3 $f7cf $feb3 lda ram_E3 ;3 lda ram_D6 ;3 cmp #$08 ;2 cmp #$08 ;2 bcc $f7e1 ;2/3 bcc $fec6 ;2/3 lda ram_E0 ;3 lda ram_CE jsr $fe72 ;6 ldx #$dd ;2 ldx #$cb ldx #$d3 ;2 ldy #$03 ;2 ldy #$04 ldy #$02 ;2 jsr $f38f ;6 jsr $f5ff jsr $f843 ;6 jmp $f833 ;3 jmp $f908 jmp $ff1a ;3 $f7e1 $f8c3 $fec6 lda #$dd ;2 lda #$cb ;2 lda #$d3 ;2 sta ram_E8 ;3 sta ram_D5 ;3 sta ram_DB ;3 lda #$03 ;2 lda #$03 ;2 lda #$02 ;2 sta ram_E7 ;3 sta ram_D4 ;3 sta ram_DA ;3 lda #$45 ;2 lda #$27 ;2 lda #$f3 ;2 sta ram_E5 ;3 sta ram_D2 ;3 sta ram_D8 ;3 lda #$f8 ;2 lda #$f9 ;2 lda #$f0 ;2 sta ram_E6 ;3 sta ram_D3 ;3 sta ram_D9 ;3 lda ram_E4 ;3 lda ram_D0 ;3 lda ram_D7 ;3 sta ram_E9 ;3 sta ram_D6 ;3 sta ram_DC ;3 jsr $f6d2 ;6 jsr $f715 ;6 jsr $fe44 ;6 ldy #$00 ;2 ldy ram_E1 ;3 ldy #$00 ;2 lda (ram_D2),y ;5 lda (ram_D8),y ;5 beq $f908 ;2/3! beq $ff1a ;2/3 iny ;2 ldy #$01 ;2 lda (ram_D2),y ;5 lda (ram_D8),y ;5 tax ;2 tax ;2 lda CXM0P,x ;4 lda CXM0P,x ;4 cmp ram_CB ;3 cmp ram_D3 ;3 bne $f908 ;2/3! bne $ff1a ;2/3 lda CXM1P,x ;4 lda CXM1P,x ;4 sec ;2 sec ;2 sbc ram_CC ;3 sbc ram_D4 ;3 clc ;2 clc ;2 adc #$04 ;2 adc #$04 ;2 and #$f8 ;2 and #$f8 ;2 bne $f908 ;2/3! bne $ff1a ;2/3 lda CXP0FB,x ;4 lda CXP0FB,x ;4 sec ;2 sec ;2 sbc ram_CD ;3 sbc ram_D5 ;3 clc ;2 clc ;2 adc #$04 ;2 adc #$04 ;2 and #$f8 ;2 and #$f8 ;2 bne $f908 ;2/3 bne $ff1a ;2/3 With such large code blocks almost (Adventure is slightly optimized) 100% identical (besides the addresses), this clearly shows that code was exchanged between developers. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4ever2600 Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) Yeah from what I've always understood talking to Warren Robinette at Gaming Conventions, he stated that the Superman game was built off the Adventure engine so I'm not surprised at that at all. Would have been cool to go through more prototypes from around then to inspect. Like how they have multiple dumped known rom images of protos. Basically Tempests whole website. Lol Great work on that Thomas! Edited March 26 by 4ever2600 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Supergun Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 59 minutes ago, 4ever2600 said: Would have been cool to go through more prototypes from around then to inspect. Like how they have multiple dumped known rom images of protos. Basically Tempests whole website. Lol This is very true. And what’s interesting for me is that I never gave much thought nor showed much interest in protos for released games. I just never cared for them nor saw much use for them. But then one day I stumbled upon the fact that some of the SNES Nintendo service and diagnostic cartridges when analyzed were found to actually have remnants from the early beta Super Mario Bros. 4 game. Tons of unused sprites, early map images, different layouts, etc. It was just leftover rom data which was still present from the early beta when it was only partially overwritten with the code for the test carts. And so in much the same way, there is always the possibility that leftover data from an unreleased game could be found hidden in plain sight, in both beta games as well as even released games. So in that sense, anything and everything should always be checked and double checked, just to be sure. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecomicsrack@gmail.com Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 On 3/24/2023 at 5:33 AM, Tempest said: I'm actually grateful that they weren't interested. If they had taken everything then most likely we'd never have seen this lost prototype. I love the idea of computer museums preserving all this history before it's destroyed, but in reality they seem to just sit on stuff and it never gets shared with the public (they may not even be able to due to copyright issues). I'm actually in the process of working with someone who donated all their items to a museum who is a bit dismayed that they don't seem to be interested in doing anything with it. He's now in the process of trying to get copies of his games so they can be shared with the community, but we're not sure how that will play out. For sure, I told her the same thing.. I said please sell these to me... I will make sure they don't get mothballed away and people in the community get to enjoy these historical Items... It was her fathers wishes that they be donated to a museum , but the museums did not heed the call...she tried and saw that I was genuine and had interest in it all from a historical standpoint. She told me she figured it was all worth some money, but was happy that I get them as I showed my love for Atari history. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CPUWIZ Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 3 hours ago, thecomicsrack@gmail.com said: For sure, I told her the same thing.. I said please sell these to me... I will make sure they don't get mothballed away and people in the community get to enjoy these historical Items... It was her fathers wishes that they be donated to a museum , but the museums did not heed the call...she tried and saw that I was genuine and had interest in it all from a historical standpoint. She told me she figured it was all worth some money, but was happy that I get them as I showed my love for Atari history. You should share this thread with her, she would probably appreciate that. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted March 26 Share Posted March 26 (edited) 7 hours ago, 4ever2600 said: Yeah from what I've always understood talking to Warren Robinette at Gaming Conventions, he stated that the Superman game was built off the Adventure engine so I'm not surprised at that at all. I am a bit surprised that it is not vice versa. The Adventure code is slightly optimized (iny instead of ldy #$01), which would indicate a later date. Edited March 26 by Thomas Jentzsch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted March 26 Author Share Posted March 26 10 hours ago, thecomicsrack@gmail.com said: For sure, I told her the same thing.. I said please sell these to me... I will make sure they don't get mothballed away and people in the community get to enjoy these historical Items... It was her fathers wishes that they be donated to a museum , but the museums did not heed the call...she tried and saw that I was genuine and had interest in it all from a historical standpoint. She told me she figured it was all worth some money, but was happy that I get them as I showed my love for Atari history. Looking forward to seeing the other prototypes. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhindle The Red Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 On 3/26/2023 at 3:57 AM, Thomas Jentzsch said: I am a bit surprised that it is not vice versa. The Adventure code is slightly optimized (iny instead of ldy #$01), which would indicate a later date. Adventure started first, the code was used to build Superman, which came out first, then Adventure was completed. So that's how Adventure both provided an engine for Superman, but was still more advanced by the time it came out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4ever2600 Posted March 31 Share Posted March 31 Then that explains that a little better! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubersaurus Posted April 3 Share Posted April 3 So the bird actually comes from an early prototype, according to Robinett's Making the Dragon book! Shortly after Robinett developed a feasibility demo circa September 1978 and pitched it to get Adventure approved (and from which Superman and the final Adventure derive from), he started trying to build it out into an actual game before hitting a designer's block and taking a break from it to work on BASIC Programming. Based on the text, it doesn't sound like the bird stuck around after he returned to Adventure, which would mean that these code snippets are from a very early build of the game (though Robinett could probably clarify). Attached is an art mockup Robinett put together (and which I used for my Adventure video a while back) to show what the early prototype looked like. From his book "I was playing around with a couple other things. I had a bird (a road runner) that would run around - I wasn't sure what it should do." 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tempest Posted April 3 Author Share Posted April 3 6 minutes ago, ubersaurus said: So the bird actually comes from an early prototype, according to Robinett's Making the Dragon book! Shortly after Robinett developed a feasibility demo circa September 1978 and pitched it to get Adventure approved (and from which Superman and the final Adventure derive from), he started trying to build it out into an actual game before hitting a designer's block and taking a break from it to work on BASIC Programming. Based on the text, it doesn't sound like the bird stuck around after he returned to Adventure, which would mean that these code snippets are from a very early build of the game (though Robinett could probably clarify). Attached is an art mockup Robinett put together (and which I used for my Adventure video a while back) to show what the early prototype looked like. From his book "I was playing around with a couple other things. I had a bird (a road runner) that would run around - I wasn't sure what it should do." Wow! Thanks for finding this. Too bad it's just a code snippet, an early version of Adventure would have been something to see. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonreddick Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 GenXGrownUp is sending some much-deserved traffic to this thread. More people need to try out Sonar! 5 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+SpiceWare Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, jonreddick said: GenXGrownUp is sending some much-deserved traffic to this thread. Nice! A few homebrews support Stereo as well: A-VCS-tec Challenge Medieval Mayhem Skeleton+ 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+sramirez2008 Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, jonreddick said: GenXGrownUp is sending some much-deserved traffic to this thread. More people need to try out Sonar! Like his box mock-up. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Jentzsch Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, jonreddick said: GenXGrownUp is sending some much-deserved traffic to this thread. More people need to try out Sonar! Nice video. But you missed that I posted a fixed version with sub randomization and separate sounds for left and right here. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonreddick Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Nice video. But you missed that I posted a fixed version with sub randomization and separate sounds for left and right here. Sounds like an update is in order! - Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonreddick Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 1 hour ago, sramirez2008 said: Like his box mock-up. Thank you! - Jon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonreddick Posted April 4 Share Posted April 4 On 3/23/2023 at 11:31 AM, Thomas Jentzsch said: I have create a version which addresses the following issues: - no screen rolls with difficulty = A - randomly created ships (1x4, 2x3, 3x2, 4x1) and mines (5x1) - different sound pitches for left and right player (no stereo required anymore) Please let me know if you find any bugs. There are still about 250 bytes free. Sonar (fixed V1.0) (NTSC).bin 2 kB · 118 downloads This is fantastic, and just what I was hoping for. Thanks! - Jon 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4ever2600 Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Are there any early protos of Superman floating around? No pun. Would be cool to see if any of this was laying around in the code still, considering it seems to be smack dab in the middle of the controversy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonreddick Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 21 hours ago, Thomas Jentzsch said: Nice video. But you missed that I posted a fixed version with sub randomization and separate sounds for left and right here. Thanks for your efforts, Thomas. Update video and credit given where it's due! 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerSpaceFan Posted April 5 Share Posted April 5 Fantastic stuff, and my hats is off to you Thomas for amazing wizardry. There's no way to add some A.I. to this is there? To make it a single player experience too? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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