Jump to content
IGNORED

Sonar Prototype Found


Tempest

Recommended Posts

4 hours ago, 4ever2600 said:

That is so weird on the old Adventure gfx data!

Maybe the bat was originally going to be some kind of bird or something?  Just a character placeholder maybe.  That is an awesome find!

Well...

 

Since the dragons already kinda look like big ducks. Maybe those 'birds' were actually supposed to be baby dragons that randomly walked around taking the stuff?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Tempest said:

I'm actually grateful that they weren't interested.  If they had taken everything then most likely we'd never have seen this lost prototype.  I love the idea of computer museums preserving all this history before it's destroyed, but in reality they seem to just sit on stuff and it never gets shared with the public (they may not even be able to due to copyright issues).  I'm actually in the process of working with someone who donated all their items to a museum who is a bit dismayed that they don't seem to be interested in doing anything with it.  He's now in the process of trying to get copies of his games so they can be shared with the community, but we're not sure how that will play out.


100% agreed.

 

We have had several instances of scenarios like this happen over the years. One recent high profile example is Keystone Cannonball. Here we are, YEARS later, and the rom is still locked away from (in essence) 99.9% of the very people who would actually give a care about it. And I would bet dollars to donuts that Dan Kitchen himself would be dismayed at this fact (how it was basically mishandled) and would NEVER have agreed to have done so otherwise.

 

Hidden Palace, Gaming Alexandria, Video Game History Foundation, National Video Game Museum, SNES Central, Unseen64, etc.

 

More and more of these “preservation places” have popped up over the years. Why are there so many of them? And how does a donator choose one? Should donators be asking questions? Such as… Who owns them? Who runs them? What are their policy’s? Do they share resources or do they compete with one another? Etc.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Back in 2011, I was part of arranging a video gaming exhibition at the technical museum. During planning, I got a sneak peak in their warehouse, and they had a bit of interesting stuff, but alas no curator knowledgeable or interested in it. There were talks if they would take on volunteers (collectors) to help them sort through what they got, but it faded as soon as it was mentioned. Also it is true that if they get donations, at best they'll take photos and post on their website, then off to the storage room. They generally have 0% interest in getting things running, or if they ever start it up and it breaks down, that is the final condition of the item until they clear the storage and send everything to recycling.

 

During our expo, I believe one person from the staff stopped by to see how it went. When we were finished and packing up, nobody showed up to wish us goodbye. To them, our video gaming exhibition was an attraction to draw a few more visitors at the expense of lending the room for free. Despite being a technical museum with some home computer and video game console material in the collection, they had just as little interest in the topic as if we were phone collectors or model railway collectors running an expo.

 

Then again a museum is not a library. The museum should showcase a section of typical items, usually the ones visitors have any relation to. Here in Sweden, we have the gaming company Embracer Group who are trying to obtain a collection of every video game ever made (which of course is impossible, and despite the owner is a multi millionaire, they would be utterly lucky to even obtain 15-20% of everything). It is still not clear what they will do with the collection, if they will rent it to various parties, if they will do any form of digital preservation of what is not already preserved (again, copyright is a big issue in this case) or if the owner will just use it as his personal toys since he used his (company) money to obtain it. Still it feels a little more hopeful than a museum, mainly because Embracer at least pays market level money for the items instead of expecting donations.

  • Like 2
  • Confused 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

While searching for more Adventure code hidden in known ROMs (no luck), I stumbled over similarities between Adventure and Superman.

Sonar (Adventure proto)     Adventure                       Superman

$f7a0
    lda     #$ff    ;2
    sta     ram_98  ;3
    ldy     #$04    ;2
    jsr     $f4e7   ;6
    rts             ;6

$f7aa                       $f8a5                           $fea7
    inc     ram_E3  ;5          inc     ram_CF     ;5             inc     ram_D6   ;5
    lda     ram_E3  ;3          lda     ram_CF     ;3             lda     ram_D6   ;3
    cmp     #$08    ;2          cmp     #$08       ;2             cmp     #$08     ;2
    bne     $f7b6   ;2/3        bne     $f8b1      ;2/3           bne     $feb3    ;2/3
    lda     #$00    ;2          lda     #$00       ;2             lda     #$00     ;2
    sta     ram_E3  ;3          sta     ram_CF     ;3             sta     ram_D6   ;3
$f7b6
    lda     ram_E3  ;3
    and     #$02    ;2
    beq     $f7c7   ;2/3
    lda     #$67    ;2
    sta     ram_E1  ;3
    lda     #$fd    ;2
    sta     ram_E2  ;3
    jmp     $f7cf   ;3

$f7c7
    lda     #$6f    ;2
    sta     ram_E1  ;3
    lda     #$fd    ;2
    sta     ram_E2  ;3
$f7cf                                                       $feb3
    lda     ram_E3  ;3                                          lda     ram_D6      ;3
    cmp     #$08    ;2                                          cmp     #$08        ;2
    bcc     $f7e1   ;2/3                                        bcc     $fec6       ;2/3
    lda     ram_E0  ;3          lda     ram_CE                  jsr     $fe72       ;6
    ldx     #$dd    ;2          ldx     #$cb                    ldx     #$d3        ;2
    ldy     #$03    ;2          ldy     #$04                    ldy     #$02        ;2
    jsr     $f38f   ;6          jsr     $f5ff                   jsr     $f843       ;6
    jmp     $f833   ;3          jmp     $f908                   jmp     $ff1a       ;3

$f7e1                       $f8c3                           $fec6
    lda     #$dd    ;2          lda     #$cb        ;2          lda     #$d3        ;2
    sta     ram_E8  ;3          sta     ram_D5      ;3          sta     ram_DB      ;3
    lda     #$03    ;2          lda     #$03        ;2          lda     #$02        ;2
    sta     ram_E7  ;3          sta     ram_D4      ;3          sta     ram_DA      ;3
    lda     #$45    ;2          lda     #$27        ;2          lda     #$f3        ;2
    sta     ram_E5  ;3          sta     ram_D2      ;3          sta     ram_D8      ;3
    lda     #$f8    ;2          lda     #$f9        ;2          lda     #$f0        ;2
    sta     ram_E6  ;3          sta     ram_D3      ;3          sta     ram_D9      ;3
    lda     ram_E4  ;3          lda     ram_D0      ;3          lda     ram_D7      ;3
    sta     ram_E9  ;3          sta     ram_D6      ;3          sta     ram_DC      ;3
    jsr     $f6d2   ;6          jsr     $f715       ;6          jsr     $fe44       ;6
    ldy     #$00    ;2          ldy     ram_E1      ;3          ldy     #$00        ;2
                                lda     (ram_D2),y  ;5          lda     (ram_D8),y  ;5
                                beq     $f908       ;2/3!       beq     $ff1a       ;2/3
                                iny                 ;2          ldy     #$01        ;2
                                lda     (ram_D2),y  ;5          lda     (ram_D8),y  ;5
                                tax                 ;2          tax                 ;2
                                lda     CXM0P,x     ;4          lda     CXM0P,x     ;4
                                cmp     ram_CB      ;3          cmp     ram_D3      ;3
                                bne     $f908       ;2/3!       bne     $ff1a       ;2/3
                                lda     CXM1P,x     ;4          lda     CXM1P,x     ;4
                                sec                 ;2          sec                 ;2
                                sbc     ram_CC      ;3          sbc     ram_D4      ;3
                                clc                 ;2          clc                 ;2
                                adc     #$04        ;2          adc     #$04        ;2
                                and     #$f8        ;2          and     #$f8        ;2
                                bne     $f908       ;2/3!       bne     $ff1a       ;2/3
                                lda     CXP0FB,x    ;4          lda     CXP0FB,x    ;4
                                sec                 ;2          sec                 ;2
                                sbc     ram_CD      ;3          sbc     ram_D5      ;3
                                clc                 ;2          clc                 ;2
                                adc     #$04        ;2          adc     #$04        ;2
                                and     #$f8        ;2          and     #$f8        ;2
                                bne     $f908       ;2/3        bne     $ff1a       ;2/3

With such large code blocks almost (Adventure is slightly optimized) 100% identical (besides the addresses), this clearly shows that code was exchanged between developers.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah from what I've always understood talking to Warren Robinette at Gaming Conventions, he stated that the Superman game was built off the Adventure engine so I'm not surprised at that at all.

 

Would have been cool to go through more prototypes from around then to inspect.  Like how they have multiple dumped known rom images of protos.  Basically Tempests whole website. Lol

 

Great work on that Thomas!

Edited by 4ever2600
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

59 minutes ago, 4ever2600 said:

Would have been cool to go through more prototypes from around then to inspect.  Like how they have multiple dumped known rom images of protos.  Basically Tempests whole website. Lol


This is very true. And what’s interesting for me is that I never gave much thought nor showed much interest in protos for released games. I just never cared for them nor saw much use for them.

 

But then one day I stumbled upon the fact that some of the SNES Nintendo service and diagnostic cartridges when analyzed were found to actually have remnants from the early beta Super Mario Bros. 4 game. Tons of unused sprites, early map images, different layouts, etc. It was just leftover rom data which was still present from the early beta when it was only partially overwritten with the code for the test carts.

 

And so in much the same way, there is always the possibility that leftover  data from an unreleased game could be found hidden in plain sight, in both beta games as well as even released games. So in that sense, anything and everything should always be checked and double checked, just to be sure.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/24/2023 at 5:33 AM, Tempest said:

I'm actually grateful that they weren't interested.  If they had taken everything then most likely we'd never have seen this lost prototype.  I love the idea of computer museums preserving all this history before it's destroyed, but in reality they seem to just sit on stuff and it never gets shared with the public (they may not even be able to due to copyright issues).  I'm actually in the process of working with someone who donated all their items to a museum who is a bit dismayed that they don't seem to be interested in doing anything with it.  He's now in the process of trying to get copies of his games so they can be shared with the community, but we're not sure how that will play out.

For sure, I told her the same thing.. I said please sell these to me... I will make sure they don't get mothballed away and people in the community get to enjoy these historical Items... It was her fathers wishes that they be donated to a museum , but the museums did not heed the call...she tried and saw that I was genuine and had interest in it all from a historical standpoint. She told me she figured it was all worth some money, but was happy that I get them as I showed my love for Atari history.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, thecomicsrack@gmail.com said:

For sure, I told her the same thing.. I said please sell these to me... I will make sure they don't get mothballed away and people in the community get to enjoy these historical Items... It was her fathers wishes that they be donated to a museum , but the museums did not heed the call...she tried and saw that I was genuine and had interest in it all from a historical standpoint. She told me she figured it was all worth some money, but was happy that I get them as I showed my love for Atari history.

You should share this thread with her, she would probably appreciate that.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, 4ever2600 said:

Yeah from what I've always understood talking to Warren Robinette at Gaming Conventions, he stated that the Superman game was built off the Adventure engine so I'm not surprised at that at all.

I am a bit surprised that it is not vice versa. The Adventure code is slightly optimized (iny instead of ldy #$01), which would indicate a later date.

Edited by Thomas Jentzsch
Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, thecomicsrack@gmail.com said:

For sure, I told her the same thing.. I said please sell these to me... I will make sure they don't get mothballed away and people in the community get to enjoy these historical Items... It was her fathers wishes that they be donated to a museum , but the museums did not heed the call...she tried and saw that I was genuine and had interest in it all from a historical standpoint. She told me she figured it was all worth some money, but was happy that I get them as I showed my love for Atari history.

Looking forward to seeing the other prototypes.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/26/2023 at 3:57 AM, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I am a bit surprised that it is not vice versa. The Adventure code is slightly optimized (iny instead of ldy #$01), which would indicate a later date.

Adventure started first, the code was used to build Superman, which came out first, then Adventure was completed.  So that's how Adventure both provided an engine for Superman, but was still more advanced by the time it came out.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the bird actually comes from an early prototype, according to Robinett's Making the Dragon book! Shortly after Robinett developed a feasibility demo circa September 1978 and pitched it to get Adventure approved (and from which Superman and the final Adventure derive from), he started trying to build it out into an actual game before hitting a designer's block and taking a break from it to work on BASIC Programming. Based on the text, it doesn't sound like the bird stuck around after he returned to Adventure, which would mean that these code snippets are from a very early build of the game (though Robinett could probably clarify). Attached is an art mockup Robinett put together (and which I used for my Adventure video a while back) to show what the early prototype looked like. From his book "I was playing around with a couple other things. I had a bird (a road runner) that would run around - I wasn't sure what it should do."

 

image.thumb.png.197e36e7bae118f11a0af109c5fd9585.png

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, ubersaurus said:

So the bird actually comes from an early prototype, according to Robinett's Making the Dragon book! Shortly after Robinett developed a feasibility demo circa September 1978 and pitched it to get Adventure approved (and from which Superman and the final Adventure derive from), he started trying to build it out into an actual game before hitting a designer's block and taking a break from it to work on BASIC Programming. Based on the text, it doesn't sound like the bird stuck around after he returned to Adventure, which would mean that these code snippets are from a very early build of the game (though Robinett could probably clarify). Attached is an art mockup Robinett put together (and which I used for my Adventure video a while back) to show what the early prototype looked like. From his book "I was playing around with a couple other things. I had a bird (a road runner) that would run around - I wasn't sure what it should do."

 

image.thumb.png.197e36e7bae118f11a0af109c5fd9585.png

Wow!  Thanks for finding this.  Too bad it's just a code snippet, an early version of Adventure would have been something to see.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 3/23/2023 at 11:31 AM, Thomas Jentzsch said:

I have create a version which addresses the following issues:

- no screen rolls with difficulty = A

- randomly created ships (1x4, 2x3, 3x2, 4x1) and mines (5x1)

- different sound pitches for left and right player (no stereo required anymore)

 

Please let me know if you find any bugs. There are still about 250 bytes free.

Sonar (fixed V1.0) (NTSC).bin 2 kB · 118 downloads

This is fantastic, and just what I was hoping for. Thanks!

 

- Jon

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...