Gaming franchises you feel should be major, but aren't.

[Pixelboy]

7 hours ago, electricmastro said:

And that makes it all the more interesting how Mario can get into games like racing games, party games, sports games, RPGs, etc. and all receive acceptance, even though he started off in a platformer.

Well, it's all about paths not taken. Activision could have easily turned Pitfall Harry into a company mascot and put him in all kinds of Activision games, but the decision makers simply didn't see the value in doing that. Nintendid what others didn't. 

 

[CatPix]

This always amuses me when I read that "Mario was able to do tennis, racing, etc..." but that's the opposite : The impressive thing is that Nintendo managed several times to release good and funny games in various genres, and "upmarket" them by filling them with their Mario (and later other franchises) characters.

Mario tried educationnal games and they were a burning disaster.

 

If Sonic failed to branch into other genres, it's not because Sonic wasn't made for them or because people didn't held Sonic in high esteem, it's because the games were bad, period. If you had put Mario characters in Sonic R and call it Mario R, it would have bombed too.

Mario, or a mascot, do sells games, sure, but it's just part of a wider formula. Many other company mascots have tried to show up in unrelated games and most failed, not because people don't like their mascot to do something else, but because the editor though that dropping a mascot in a mediocre game would still sell. It doesn't work that way.

Yet having Mario in his games is important because each character from the Nintendoverse have their characteristics that allow for gameplay variations that may not work so well with "generic" characters.

 

But the point is : Mario didn't succeeded in appearing in a plethora of game because or despite he is the hero of one game. It's because he was put in a series of decent-to-good games in a consistent manner.

[Lostdragon]

12 hours ago, Video said:

Hero? Yeah, extra huge worlds with stations (checkpoints) to reload and continue, a variety of more powerful weapons, just watch your energy gauge. Of course updating graphics an physics, like blow a wall to let lava burn through a floor or something, maybe be able to swap the helicopter for dive gear to get to new areas?

 

Homebrew crowd activate!!!

 

Newer games, I loved spyro the dragon, which looked like it was going to be a series, but disappeared after the PlayStation and ps2 games. The gba ones were excellent imo.

Spyro’s Kingdom was  being developed, then  it was scrapped, then redeveloped, then scrapped again, until finally becoming  Skylanders.

 

Version 1 was developed by Helios Interactive and was to be exclusive to PC and Nintendo Wii. 

 

It got cancelled, then revived later by Toys 4 Bob with version 2, which introduced the portal of power and skylander figures, then called “Kingdom Heros”.

 

 

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Lostdragon

[Tanooki]

There are cases, since Mario sports are brought up, where that long post from hours back does fit the mold of dumbing down/watering down the experience.

There really are two solid cases for it, well, one a little more solid than the other, but close.  Mario Golf and Mario Tennis

 

Both started out on Gameboy and at about the same point in time N64 too.  The original games were made by Camelot, known well on the golf side for Hot Shots, a hell of a pedigree.  Each game had the console game oddly enough as a 3D extension of that primary title.  The primary, the portable game, was not just a sport, but a sport JRPG.  You come up with a will to be the best and start from being just dirt basically.  You work and work, do the practices for points(xp), then work your way through various venues improving, getting new gear, upping stats, the works to then win.  This could then be carried over to the console (transfer pak) and played up in 3D just to do straight courses and transfer some info back to the handheld for improvement, and to unlock a few more characters(both ways) too.

 

Then game the releases after.  The GC and GBA games took the focus a bit off the RPG, not totally but different to I'd say it was like 80-90% as good but had some odd moments.  It started to inject a lot of party style(ie mario party) almost style events and modes.  Overall the design was still quite good, not a whole lot to dislike.  But after that it was a quick slide down.  RPG was dropped, they just were sports games with Mario, and more Mario sports (baseball, soccer, etc) popped up in that era too and at least those being the firsts were solid sports games, but that's besides the point.  When it moved into the Wii/DS and up to current more and more of what made the franchise series solid disappeared.  The growth was largely gone, it was more of an adventure sports game, and then finally a party sports game.  GOlf in particular fared worst.  The 3DS game was incomplete without paying $10 over retail for 20% of it as a download, and they made the control I guess more fun, but less like hot shots, more all ages(I guess that works) and finally on the Switch...they ruined it almost entirely.  The game centers now around combining mario party mechanics of playing the game along with taking out a good chunk of the swing/control mechanics where's it's almost like a 1-2 tap auto play party title.  Just aim and press the button weeeeeee...who needs to have another tap for precision or better aiming and control right?

[Cebus Capucinis]

In before the obligatory "Atari would still be #1 if they just used a bear character from a somewhat obscure arcade cabinet that only had 5,300 machines in the wild at its peak as a mascot because since I know who that is as an aging nerd it clearly must translate to the public as a whole" post.

[CatPix]

1 hour ago, Tanooki said:

The game centers now around combining mario party mechanics of playing the game along with taking out a good chunk of the swing/control mechanics where's it's almost like a 1-2 tap auto play party title.  Just aim and press the button weeeeeee...who needs to have another tap for precision or better aiming and control right?

I can see your argument but on the other hand, if those games were still like that they would not be played, or not the same.

All of those games for me are multiplayer games only. Sure maybe it's because without those RPG elements they are rather shallow and repetitive experience, but on the other hand, if I play on my own then invite friends at home that do not own the game, then I'm playing a character with 20 XP when they play a 1XP character each time.

Many of those games still require a knowledge and experience of the gameplay to be played fully. You can easily tell a beginner from a skilled player even without all of those mechanisms in most cases, be it Mario Kart or Mario Tennis. Arguably Mario Golf is the easiest to master quickly.

If those games hadn't evolved they would just not be good multiplayer games in the modern world (a world where Mario Tennis is no longer the main game everyone plays at home and with friends daily), and it has nothing to do with "dumbing down".

The current Super Mario Kart or Smash player will crush any beginner to a pulp, yet those games doesn't have upgrade or XP systems.

Skills are still a requirement.

I do get the point that those games would be better enjoyed solo with a XP system but they are mostly focused on multiplayer experience.

 

And on the dumbing down, I remember the era where Silent Hill and Resident evil came with an auto-aiming function. Not assisted aim, auto-aim. The ennemy is behind you? Press R1 and your character flips back; press R2 and you're dead center in the target. I remember survival horror games with infinite inventory space, ammo that piled up because ennemies were slow and weak so you could smash them with a melee weapon; items that blinks, sparkle, glow or your character stare at them if he is close enough.

In Zelda games, there are NPC to give you clues and even reminders since at least Zelda Ocarina of Time.

If there is a dumbing down in game, it's been going for at least 25 years.

 

On the other hand, you have now 200$ game controllers with over 35 buttons for FARMING simulators.

Games like Factorio or Satisfactory gather millions of players, people are excited for City Skylines 2.

All kinds of games that get more and more complex as time goes.

Some licences do get dumbed down, and there are simple dumb games out there. But it's certainly not a general trend that drag all games and gamers down.

Edited March 26, 2023 by CatPix

[+jgkspsx]

Chibi Robo 😭

[Tanooki]

In other words, the coupling of online and multiplayer is ruining one franchise after another -- unless you're into shallow party games online or on a couch getting wasted on liquor.

 

I'm over mario kart, smash, and the latest sports out of Nintendo as they've gone to hell.  I've disliked Mario Party since the original, they've all morphed into versions of it.  They are most definitely not a good game for single player anymore on any of those franchises for some time now.

[electricmastro]

5 hours ago, CatPix said:

But the point is : Mario didn't succeeded in appearing in a plethora of game because or despite he is the hero of one game. It's because he was put in a series of decent-to-good games in a consistent manner.

Similar thing could be said about Crash Bandicoot too. His Crash Team Racing games, even if ridiculed as Mario Kart clones, had a lot of fanfare even to this day because of how fun they are.

[+Cafeman]

Panzer Dragoon.  At least we got 4 good games. Not counting the remake, it brought nothing new to the table, doesn’t seem to have been a hit either.  PD Orta was 20 years ago!  
 

Jet Set Radio.  2 games. Such a fun, clever game. But not popular enough, abandoned. 
 

 

[electricmastro]

9 hours ago, dudeguy said:

OutRun

 

Especially surprising to me Sega isn’t capitalizing on the series more when racing series like Mario Kart, Forza, and Gran Turismo are popular, even well after OutRun: Online Arcade released in 2009.

[CapitanClassic]

Maybe keeping the number of titles in a franchise limited is a good thing. PAC-man has over 100, and of those listed, the ones I have played that are as good/better than the original are only a handful. Most don’t stray too far from the original concept either.

 

PAC-man Championship Edition (haven’t played the console version, but the large 4-player arcade version was fun.)

Pac-man vs. (GCN/GBA)

Playing with human ghosts and coordinating traps was a unique twist.

PAC-man 99

Its a multi-platform battlerama 

 

PAC-man 256

Endless runner based off the original kill screen.

Then you’ve got all the Ms. Pac-Man and Jr. Pac-Man old arcade games that were great. The other 3D variants were just OK, (Pac-Man World, Ms Pac-Man Maze Madness, et al)

[Creamhoven]

On 3/24/2023 at 3:42 PM, Tanooki said:

- F-Zero

F-Zero is great fun. Perhaps there hasn't been a new title because this was so amazing, that it's tough to beat:

On 3/24/2023 at 3:42 PM, Tanooki said:

- Pilotwings

Great clean an relaxing fun. If they did a new one that captures the vibe of the original, that would be nice.

2 hours ago, jgkspsx said:

Chibi Robo 😭

Bring it back!

58 minutes ago, Cafeman said:

Jet Set Radio.

You could release this today, still awesome:

I think that Densha De Go! could be alot bigger, it is great fun.

 

As well as Tokyo Xtreme Racer, which is pretty much dead.

 

 

Looking at this, the progression of gaming really has slowed down since the 00s

 

Edited March 26, 2023 by Creamhoven

[electricmastro]

55 minutes ago, CapitanClassic said:

Maybe keeping the number of titles in a franchise limited is a good thing. PAC-man has over 100, and of those listed, the ones I have played that are as good/better than the original are only a handful. Most don’t stray too far from the original concept either.

 

PAC-man Championship Edition (haven’t played the console version, but the large 4-player arcade version was fun.)

Pac-man vs. (GCN/GBA)

Playing with human ghosts and coordinating traps was a unique twist.

PAC-man 99

Its a multi-platform battlerama 

 

PAC-man 256

Endless runner based off the original kill screen.

Then you’ve got all the Ms. Pac-Man and Jr. Pac-Man old arcade games that were great. The other 3D variants were just OK, (Pac-Man World, Ms Pac-Man Maze Madness, et al)

I get the feeling Pac-Man has had trouble coming out of the shadow of his 1980 arcade for the longest time, because of its popularity, and the closest he has come to doing that are with Pac-Man World and Pac-Man Championship.

 

Otherwise, just simply focusing on trying to recreate the success of the 1980 game as opposed to succeeding it would be like if Mario games kept trying to recreate the success of Donkey Kong 1981, as opposed to building and innovating on top of it going forward.

Edited March 26, 2023 by electricmastro

[roots.genoa]

4 hours ago, CatPix said:

In Zelda games, there are NPC to give you clues and even reminders since at least Zelda Ocarina of Time.

If there is a dumbing down in game, it's been going for at least 25 years.

Actually it happened around the arrival of 3D. Suddenly games become more complex; you didn't have to just "go to the right", you had a camera to handle, etc. So to compensate, games have become easier than they were in 2D, it's quite a well known fact.

 

52 minutes ago, Creamhoven said:

F-Zero is great fun. Perhaps there hasn't been a new title because this was so amazing, that it's tough to beat:

Or perhaps because F-Zero GX, as good as it was, bombed. 🙂

[electricmastro]

7 minutes ago, roots.genoa said:

Actually it happened around the arrival of 3D. Suddenly games become more complex; you didn't have to just "go to the right", you had a camera to handle, etc. So to compensate, games have become easier than they were in 2D, it's quite a well known fact.

 

Or perhaps because F-Zero GX, as good as it was, bombed. 🙂

Nintendo’s most long-lasting franchises seems to be Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Kirby, Fire Emblem, and Pokémon too. This and more all in mind, it can get one wondering how much priority Nintendo is willing to give on F-Zero at this point after almost 20 years.

Edited March 26, 2023 by electricmastro

[Tanooki]

F-Zero on GC to be clear, unless it was a doctored translated story has not been replaced because in Miyamotos infinite opinion the game was peak F-Zero and they feel there is nothing more than can do with the franchise that would make it worth doing another.  Personally, I think that's crap.  I think they're just afraid to given the last one was largely Sega.  I played the arcade cabinet for the first time two weeks ago, I can see the Gamecube in it (AX is hiding on the GC disc afterall if you use a string of action replay codes to unlock it.)  The thing is, it did more, there was this whole mechanic they could do to stuff that chair experience against lined up machines against other people on and offline and that would be new. Given how much they Mario Party watered own some other franchises sadly, and I would not like to see it happen, but if they kept true to the cabinet it could work.  There's still plenty of room to exploit with a less absurdly gatekeeping hard story mode, and more tracks as well.  Tracks could be like Kart did and re-makes of the years of 2D (mode7) courses and 64 too, but also room to make sequels to some that just fell into obscurity (including the BS Fzero courses that never came back or got attention.)

 

Pilotwings I think would be a trickier thing, but that said, if it's a money issue I'd love to see them do another $10 flat download like Mario Run and bring up the original style of the SNES games with a look like the 3DS one(3d, smooth, fluid visuals) for mobile devices where touch or controller work all the same.  I think it would excellently adapter to the format and at a dirt cheap cost to them to bother.

[Creamhoven]

1 hour ago, roots.genoa said:

Or perhaps because F-Zero GX, as good as it was, bombed. 🙂

That is very unfortunate.

50 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

F-Zero on GC to be clear, unless it was a doctored translated story has not been replaced because in Miyamotos infinite opinion the game was peak F-Zero and they feel there is nothing more than can do with the franchise that would make it worth doing another.  Personally, I think that's crap.  I think they're just afraid to given the last one was largely Sega.

Maybe Shin'en Multimedia could pull it off.

50 minutes ago, Tanooki said:

Pilotwings I think would be a trickier thing, but that said, if it's a money issue I'd love to see them do another $10 flat download like Mario Run and bring up the original style of the SNES games with a look like the 3DS one(3d, smooth, fluid visuals) for mobile devices where touch or controller work all the same.  I think it would excellently adapter to the format and at a dirt cheap cost to them to bother.

For Pilotwings a simple production might be sufficient. They need some jazzy/bossa nova tunes a simple aesthetic and fun to control mechanics.

[Cebus Capucinis]

I like the Pac Man 3D platformer games (Pac-Man World etc.). I thought that was a good take on the franchise, even if a little cliche (since Sonic and Mario both did it).

[Tanooki]

And another thread were the game everyone called F-Zero before GX dropped gets ignored -- Tube Slider.  Somewhat of a suggestive title sure, but it really does skate the edge of being f-zero without being f-zero.

[randomcat2000]

19 hours ago, Mikebloke said:

There has been a theory for awhile now that nintendo franchises have been dumbing down for mass appeal ever since the gamecube / wii, certainly things like paper mario, which was a full fledged jrpg with levelling, item customisation etc turned into a 2 concept gimmick by the switch. Zeldas "go anywhere at anytime" and "all weapons are temporary and are virtually the same" new phase is a complete opposite of its puzzled near linear item progression of its early games, and probably started as early as the N64.

Makes sense to me, I don't play zelda (or any nintendo franchise much) but i see this in Mario. Compare Mario Odyssey to Mario 64
In mario 64, you get stars in each area. Each star is an end point to an engaging section of gameplay. Getting one feels good because it marks a completion of the challenge.
In mario odyssey, you get moons just for running around. Kick every rock, pound every mound, sometimes just find them out in the open. No matter where you go, how good you are at the game, how much you engage with the game's mechanics, you are guaranteed a reward just wandering around. The game has great movement mechanics and interesting ideas, but its too busy giving you endless collectibles to actually explore those ideas. An endless series of dopamine hits, like a slot machine.

[randomcat2000]

To answer the actual question of the thread, Alex Kidd and Wonder Boy. Both franchises have gotten recent remakes, but I wish they continued receiving new games instead of being stomped by Sonic.

[zzip]

On 3/25/2023 at 5:31 PM, electricmastro said:

On 3/25/2023 at 3:31 PM, Mikebloke said:

I think a lot of the issue is many 80s and 90s styled games don't convert well, or are not converted well.

 

Which prob makes it all the more impressive how games like Mario, The Legend of Zelda, Dragon Quest, Metal Gear, and Street Fighter made it into the 21st century.

There's storyline and character development that allows them to keep developing the franchise.    Problem is so many 80s games are based on a singular concept (shoot the Asteroids, get the frog home) that it's hard to develop a compelling franchise around them

 

 

[zzip]

On 3/26/2023 at 8:54 AM, Pixelboy said:

Well, it's all about paths not taken. Activision could have easily turned Pitfall Harry into a company mascot and put him in all kinds of Activision games, but the decision makers simply didn't see the value in doing that. Nintendid what others didn't. 

 

They did turn pitfall into a series,  but there's big gaps in the franchise.   Pitfall I and II where a good start.   But then a decade later you get "Mayan Adventure" which I love, but it's so different and feels disconnected from the other pitfall games-  like there are some "missing link" games that should exist between Pitfall II and Mayan.   I know there's Super Pitfall, but I understand that's a remake of Pitfall II?

[Creamhoven]

What I'd like to see, aside from abandond franchises brought back, is a greater focus on fun in games. Graphics on the switch are great you don't need the game to look extremely high tech if the fun is there.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Creamhoven