New Atari 800XL Revive Machine?

[laoo]

That's an interesting plot twist: https://twitter.com/rm_800xl/status/1654737519865462786?s=20

[+DjayBee]

6 minutes ago, laoo said:

That's an interesting plot twist: https://twitter.com/rm_800xl/status/1654737519865462786?s=20

Particularly with the registered design showing only STs and something which is not really discernible but resembles a home A/V component. 

[laoo]

There are two more tweets. In the second one is a paper for something that looks like an 800XL case: https://twitter.com/rm_800xl/status/1654738567048863745?s=20

Edited May 6, 2023 by laoo

[+Philsan]

As I replied on twitter, whether an arrangement would be not possible, they could produce an internal replacement, possibly with a new keyboard.

People would use old XL/XE cases.

[solo/ng]

2 hours ago, Philsan said:

As I replied on twitter, whether an arrangement would be not possible, they could produce an internal replacement, possibly with a new keyboard.

People would use old XL/XE cases.

Or a new case - something mixing XL/XE but fresh. 800XL case was banger but a fresh one looked similar Ataris (and they - this dues from c64mini -  can go fck themselves then) would be also awesome.

 

All old patens were gone anbd who would thou there going be this one in EU ehz-_-;

[_The Doctor__]

This doesn't look or sound correct, maybe a lawyer friend could look into this pro bono... the EU is some sort of weird beast when it comes to almost anything these days. Where is the product they are 'protecting' in use etc? Sounds like BS... just have someone produce and make outside the EU since they do that to other countries all the time, turn about is fair play, since the right are in this weirdly written paper for the EU only. Make it elsewhere and call the things FUEU800XL

[THX-1138]

3 minutes ago, _The Doctor__ said:

This doesn't look or sound correct, maybe a lawyer friend could look into this pro bono... the EU is some sort of weird beast when it comes to almost anything these days. Where is the product they are 'protecting' in use etc? Sounds like BS... just have someone produce and make outside the EU since they do that to other countries all the time, turn about is fair play, since the right are in this weirdly written paper for the EU only. Make it elsewhere and call the things FUEU800XL

Looks like RGL have secured the rights to remake the Atari 8-bit and ST machines.  I wouldn't mind if they were doing remakes themselves but they've been promising announcements for months on end.  RM should just continue and make a new case that is inspired by Atari computers or even some of those prototypes that never got made, just make no direct reference to Atari.

[_The Doctor__]

Never going to buy from RGL and most other people won't be I'd suspect. They never have nor will they ever produce anything worth having. I don't believe they've gotten the rights to anything other than some distrubution etc in Poland and then by proxy the EU? That's not how that is supposed to work, and then what do they think that means the world as well should give up their rights too... how far does such nonsense go? Nope no one like these kind of trolls. So more sad news for Atari in the EU.

How to slowly kill a platform over decades by the clown posse.

Edited May 6, 2023 by _The Doctor__

[+DjayBee]

A guy named David Wragg commented on Twitter that a registered design has to be NEW (similar to a patent) and gives links to the EUIPO.

If a design has been disclosed before, in may not be registered anymore. If it has been registered (as in this case), it can be challenged and the registration will probably be withdrawn.

 

Since the Atari desings date back to the 1980s, earlier disclosure can easily be proven and RGL is acting on very thin ice.

 

Let's community-fund the challenge and send RGL to where they belong.

 

Using the name ATARI is certainly a different matter. Even when RGL did not show any proof that they have a valid agreement with Atari, Atari themselves hold the rights on the name.

[_The Doctor__]

57 minutes ago, DjayBee said:

If a design has been disclosed before, in may not be registered anymore. If it has been registered (as in this case), it can be challenged and the registration will probably be withdrawn.

 

Since the Atari desings date back to the 1980s, earlier disclosure can easily be proven and RGL is acting on very thin ice.

 

Let's community-fund the challenge and send RGL to where they belong.

 

Using the name ATARI is certainly a different matter. Even when RGL did not show any proof that they have a valid agreement with Atari, Atari themselves hold the rights on the name.

exactly this, thank you.

[+x=usr(1536)]

16 hours ago, laoo said:

That's an interesting plot twist: https://twitter.com/rm_800xl/status/1654737519865462786?s=20

They're in the UK, so should understand the legal significance of Arkell v Pressdram.

[THX-1138]

I know RGL have rights to produce remakes of a number of machines, this has been alluded to in things they said in the past and with some interesting domain registrations.   Regarding the Atari one, they must have already made an agreement with Atari who retain the rights to the original case designs.  The RGL license agreement will be probably for the UK and the EU and other markets they will sell in, hence RGL instructing their legal representatives to contact RM. 

I have the RGL C64 maxi and VIC-20 maxi remakes and I like them but I would not want to settle for a mini Atari 800 or ST.   I don't want a pretty little toy model that plays games like the 64 Mini and A500 Mini.  I want something with a working keyboard at least.  Plus RGL products are just ARM SoCs running an emulator.  That's fair enough and fine, but RM were promising something a bit more substantial - and I would not want to see the project abandoned because RGL - might make a mini something - someday maybe.  If RM can continue and just present it in a different physical case, A8 fans will still want it.  I know I will.

[+gnusto]

On 5/6/2023 at 8:14 AM, _The Doctor__ said:

Where is the product they are 'protecting' in use etc?

Not a lawyer, etc etc. But I have a bit of knowledge here from my own involvement over the years.

 

Keep in mind trademarks are not copyright but both can be applicable when someone holds rights to something.

 

The proper appearance of a real 800XL case has multiple trademarks on it. The font and layout of "800XL", anything Atari (which is a trademarked name), probably some other aspects as well, the stylized fuji symbol for instance. Trademarks effectively last forever if you keep them up (requires periodic refiling).

The case isn't trademarked. As far as copyright of the case...my limited knowledge isn't clear here. The case would have been part of a copyright (registered design) filing for the computer, but it should be relatively easy to diverge in small ways and not infringe. Also in the EU/UK registered designs are only protected for 25 years, so long expired for the 8bits. Again not a lawyer so all appropriate caveats, but this idea (making something slightly different physically) has been done gobs of times in much more suspect circumstances and not amounted to anything. It's only the original, fairly exact design the owner can lay claim to at the end of the day.

 

But I do know for sure logos/names/name and letter combos are a no go. They can't use 800XL, 65XE, 130XE or any of that.

[leech]

Honestly, I would be happy with a 'Gen 2' Atari 800 VCS to be based upon an 800xl.  Built in keyboard, and include SIO port that somehow translates to USB, to allow pure 8bit mode.

 

At least that would eliminate any discussion about trademark issues.

[THX-1138]

56 minutes ago, leech said:

Honestly, I would be happy with a 'Gen 2' Atari 800 VCS to be based upon an 800xl.  Built in keyboard, and include SIO port that somehow translates to USB, to allow pure 8bit mode.

 

At least that would eliminate any discussion about trademark issues.

That's a completely different discussion and in the realm of faeries and unicorns.  I love my VCS but they won't be doing another anytime soon and adding 8bit tech to a modern PC-compatible "somehow" makes no sense at all and would skyrocket to cost into orbit.

 

RM can still do their 800XL remake, it's probably look different though.

 

I'm sure RGL will dazzle everyone with a mini Atari complete with a non working keyboard at some point too.

Edited May 8, 2023 by THX-1138

[+mytek]

Just my 2 cents...

 

Essentially copyright only applies to documentation in the form of authorship of such. So for instance schematics, CAD drawings, written words, sheet music, code, ect. is protected from being copied by anyone other than the author. So in other words only the author has the right to copy his own written work.

 

So even if someone has documented the original 800XL enclosure (e.g., CAD drawings, blueprints), that doesn't actually protect it from being copied physically. Same thing goes for a circuit design. It's my understanding that only the design and/or PCB layout drawings are copyrighted. But that doesn't stop me or someone else from recreating the enclosure or circuit board from scratch and selling it. Basically copyright doesn't cover hardware. For that you need a patent, and those are only good for about 20 years at most, and are nonrenewable. We're way past the patent expiration date for anything that Atari made BITD.

 

Here's a good article describing all the various types of IP protections: http://www.muzique.com/clones.htm

[+CharlieChaplin]

If you cannot produce remakes of the 800XL cases/housings, maybe you can "simply" produce remakes of

 

a) the 1200XL or

b) the 1400XL or

c) the 1450XLD or

d) the 1600XL or

e) the 1650XLD

 

cases/housings or something similar, e.g. (prototype?) 1200XL with cartridge port on top.

Luckily, the XL computer line features more than just one type... and I guess RGL does not have the rights for all of these.

 

[leech]

9 hours ago, THX-1138 said:

That's a completely different discussion and in the realm of faeries and unicorns.

I like my faeries and unicorns!

Edited May 8, 2023 by leech

[THX-1138]

10 minutes ago, leech said:

I like my faeries and unicorns!

LOL.  Fair enough 

 

[THX-1138]

13 minutes ago, CharlieChaplin said:

If you cannot produce remakes of the 800XL cases/housings, maybe you can "simply" produce remakes of

 

a) the 1200XL or

b) the 1400XL or

c) the 1450XLD or

d) the 1600XL or

e) the 1650XLD

 

cases/housings or something similar, e.g. (prototype?) 1200XL with cartridge port on top.

Luckily, the XL computer line features more than just one type... and I guess RGL does not have the rights for all of these.

 

There are lots of things RM can do to make a machine case that looks Atari-like, there are examples.  The Spectrum Next is a new design but has the look of the earlier models, MSXVR looks like an MSX computer.

There are many ideas they can draw from, including unmade prototypes.

[+mytek]

1 hour ago, CharlieChaplin said:

If you cannot produce remakes of the 800XL cases/housings...

As I already pointed out, there is nothing stopping anyone from producing a modern reproduction of any of the Atari computer enclosures, so long as they don't include any of the trademarked aspects (e.g., Atari name and Fuji logo). And if I want to slap a Fuji logo sticker on a reproduction case that I purchased, that is also ok so long as I'm not selling these cases with it already applied (personal use only exception -- end user can do whatever they want to their own stuff).

[ivop]

Here are the full registrations from 2021:

 

https://www.tmdn.org/tmdsview-web/welcome#/dsview/detail/EM700000008603542-0001

https://www.tmdn.org/tmdsview-web/welcome#/dsview/detail/EM700000008603542-0002

 

Starting a dispute:

 

https://euipo.europa.eu/ohimportal/en/disputes

 

On the grounds that the design is not new.

 

Edit: the "keyboard console" design patents for the 400/800 series are easily found online. So are the 2600, 5200, 7800 and Lynx game consoles.

 

https://www3.wipo.int/designdb/en/index.jsp

 

Search on Name, Holder, Atari, and all entries with images are shown.

 

But the XL, XE and ST lines are nowhere to be found. If you search on the EU site, they also show entries without images if you do an advanced search on ATARI INC as Owner, which results in:

 

https://www.tmdn.org/tmdsview-web/welcome#/dsview/detail/GB701984001016648-0001

 

which links to:

 

https://www.registered-design.service.gov.uk/find/1016648

 

But it has no images. I think this is the XL line. Maybe there is a way to get an employee to fetch it from the archives?

Edited May 8, 2023 by ivop

[Ricky Spanish]

Really at this point just get a laptop & Altirra. 

[Keatah]

Give this man a dollah!

2 hours ago, Ricky Spanish said:

Really at this point just get a laptop & Altirra. 

Altirra is good enough to be an official virtual machine.

[+DjayBee]

4 hours ago, ivop said:

On the grounds that the design is not new.

 

[...]

 

But the XL, XE and ST lines are nowhere to be found. If you search on the EU site, they also show entries without images if you do an advanced search on ATARI INC as Owner, which results in:

A design must not necessarily have been registered for the time to start running. It only must have been "disclosed" to the public before - which is a fact for nearly 40 years now.