The completely underappreciated possibilities of Mode 0 on SNES. . . .

[Kirk_Johnston]

I cleaned up the dark brown ceiling area slightly making better use of the layers and colours (it's actually combining two layers now):

I could actually improve stuff further in various places, but I'm not really making the game beyond this quick proof-of-concept mockup, so I just wanted to fix that one thing as it was bugging me that it looked a bit too low quality and might give some people the wrong impression that Mode 0 is more limited than it actually is.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston

[Tanooki]

7 hours ago, Mittens0407 said:

I think Tanookis point was more about the attitude than the accuracy.

That's 100% on point.  It's not that he's wrong, perhaps he is right from what grasp he has of the systems functions.  It's that his attitude and arrogance are so so shitty it turns off people in that community.  Was it a year now?  I figured out he was I think called Inception or something over on various coding/snes dev style forums and the same rudeness and tone.  It got people mad.  They'd call him out on the posts getting pissed at him accusing them of being lazy, slackers, not trying, not caring, toting the line the SNES can't do X Y Z.  The same re-run of commentary here how they don't try and so on we've gotten fed up with and started to call out as well.

 

This was never about his competence or lack of over the source material, gray area maybe on his lack of ability to code himself to back up his claims sure (which is largely me as of this thread.)  It was the snarky behavior, not the concepts.  The concepts are sound enough seemingly, but being a giant douche to the SNES development community, then getting mad at them for not attempting what he assumes will work and making things worse is entirely the issue.

7 hours ago, OldSchoolRetroGamer said:

You heard it here folks and you know the law, once somebody states this none shall challenge it! It is written and so it is law! 😂

 

Well I mean if Jerry said it...  All this thread is missing a few chairs and at least 3 people on stage with just enough teeth between them to fill up one normal persons head who knows what a dentist is.

[jeffythedragonslayer]

4 hours ago, Tanooki said:

I figured out he was I think called Inception or something

iNCEPTIONAL, the inception of something exceptional

[Kirk_Johnston]

4 hours ago, jeffythedragonslayer said:

iNCEPTIONAL, the inception of something exceptional

Yeah, I had to fight Warner Bros.' lawyers for two years just to be able to use that name. The least people can do is get it right. Lol

Edited May 20, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston

[Kirk_Johnston]

9 hours ago, Tanooki said:

It's that his attitude and arrogance are so so shitty it turns off people in that community.  Was it a year now?  I figured out he was I think called Inception or something over on various coding/snes dev style forums and the same rudeness and tone.  It got people mad.  They'd call him out on the posts getting pissed at him accusing them of being lazy, slackers, not trying, not caring, toting the line the SNES can't do X Y Z.  The same re-run of commentary here how they don't try and so on we've gotten fed up with and started to call out as well.

 

This was never about his competence or lack of over the source material, gray area maybe on his lack of ability to code himself to back up his claims sure (which is largely me as of this thread.)  It was the snarky behavior, not the concepts.  The concepts are sound enough seemingly, but being a giant douche to the SNES development community, then getting mad at them for not attempting what he assumes will work and making things worse is entirely the issue.

Please, see my signature.

Edited May 20, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston

[Tanooki]

Oh no I can't do that.  I'm better than that to just give you a free pass with a muting.  As I said you're usually right, it's your terrible attitude.  And I'm more than willing to call that out when it pops up, yet when you're just being right about things without being rude I have no problem responding (nicely) and discussing such things as I've done for a long time.  You said you just care about sharing, but then you get nasty and start flinging half baked insults and snark for those who just won't bend over and listen and just go along with it.  You can't have it just one way and not the other.  That's the only issue here which gets you driven off these other sites if not completely by them, but by your own choice since no one will go along and engage further.  I really don't get why you don't realize this. Everyone else is clearly to blame yet again reading that last sentence.  Take nothing in, and kick out the internet is to blame.

 

You're like the drunk people take to alcoholic treatment programs.  They never recover, because every last one of them says you have to realize you are the problem before there can be any recovery and clearly you're NOT at fault right?

[Creamhoven]

Perhaps you can convince those who are soured on the idea, by producing a mode 0 proof of conecept that is Creamhoven themed?

[Kirk_Johnston]

8 minutes ago, Creamhoven said:

Perhaps you can convince those who are soured on the idea, by producing a mode 0 proof of conecept that is Creamhoven themed?

Did you mean that for Tanooki or me? And what is the Creamhoven theme?

[Creamhoven]

28 minutes ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Did you mean that for Tanooki or me? And what is the Creamhoven theme?

I meant it for you, although Tanooki is free to share his thoughts on the idea as well.

 

A Creamhoven theme would be a theme oriented around a particular atariagster that is me.

 

[Kirk_Johnston]

35 minutes ago, Creamhoven said:

I meant it for you, although Tanooki is free to share his thoughts on the idea as well.

 

A Creamhoven theme would be a theme oriented around a particular atariagster that is me.

 

Mode 0 Creamhoven (one BG layer, 2bpp, eight 3-[visible]-colour palettes plus the black backdrop colour, 25 colours total):

Edited May 20, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston

[Creamhoven]

4 minutes ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Mode 0 Creamhoven (1 layer):

Beautiful, I think this will convince the sceptics of mode 0 once and for all. Thank you for your work!

[Kirk_Johnston]

Just now, Creamhoven said:

Beautiful, I think this will convince the sceptics of mode 0 once and for all. Thank you for your work!

If it doesn't, what possibly could. 😛

[jeffythedragonslayer]

8 hours ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Please, see my signature.

Yeah, I honestly think that some people just want to argue with you otherwise they wouldn't keep replying.  If no one cares about a thread it naturally dies.  When I saw your signature, I thought "Wow he must be really annoyed at people contacting him and telling him they don't like what he posts."  They claim they don't like you, but can't seem to shut up about you.  And that means they're your fans!

Edited May 20, 2023 by jeffythedragonslayer

[Mittens0407]

I remember he rallied everyone against Snesdev because someone made an image converter that didn't take advantage of the 256 color mode, calling them out for being elitists living in a "nerd-centric world", without the slightest inkling of a thought that maybe there's already a million and one programs that can convert images to 256 colors. Or who knows, maybe there could be some drawbacks to using 256 color assets for a whole game? Not that he'd know. The thread ends with a plea for a program that would make it easy to create SNES games, completely blind to the fact that any people who'd potentially make that program are probably the same people he's actively burning bridges with.

 

 

[Creamhoven]

I have made a mode 0 Nook:

 

[Creamhoven]

I have made my very own mode 0 proof of concept. It is called Creamhoven and the evil Nooker:

 

Edited May 20, 2023 by Creamhoven

[JurassicDope]

As a beginner Genesis Dev I welcome a friendly rivalry with you Snes guys 😎

 

I am tempted to pick up PvSnesLib sometimes! Aren't a few Snes homebrew being made with that? It seems like the devkit equivalent to SGDK.

 

Though I am a fan of ideas about the possibilities of retro hardware, especially the 16bit consoles. There's not really a place dedicated to that, unfortunately. At best on Twitter I often tweet about pushing the color palettes of the Genesis.

 

Edit: good work on the mode 0 concepts. And in Sotn rooms that don't have many parallaxing layers, you could switch back to mode 1 to present the higher color detail of 4bpp too.

Edited May 21, 2023 by JurassicDope

[jeffythedragonslayer]

52 minutes ago, JurassicDope said:

I am tempted to pick up PvSnesLib sometimes! Aren't a few Snes homebrew being made with that? It seems like the devkit equivalent to SGDK.

Yes, I am developing my game using PVSnesLib, and a lot of that time is spent developing PVSnesLib itself.

[Kirk_Johnston]

3 hours ago, JurassicDope said:

As a beginner Genesis Dev I welcome a friendly rivalry with you Snes guys 😎

 

I am tempted to pick up PvSnesLib sometimes! Aren't a few Snes homebrew being made with that? It seems like the devkit equivalent to SGDK.

 

Though I am a fan of ideas about the possibilities of retro hardware, especially the 16bit consoles. There's not really a place dedicated to that, unfortunately. At best on Twitter I often tweet about pushing the color palettes of the Genesis.

 

Edit: good work on the mode 0 concepts. And in Sotn rooms that don't have many parallaxing layers, you could switch back to mode 1 to present the higher color detail of 4bpp too.

Exactly. That's definitely how I would do it and how it is in a couple of the tests I've done. It's about making the best use of the correct mode and the various features and capabilities of the system depending on the situation.

 

And, just to be clear, the real point for me isn't to try and beat the Genesis ultimately. I actually like the Genesis, and I never had an issue with it [or more the attitude around it and then towards SNES by certain people] until more recently. It's more that I'm very much annoyed the SNES isn't getting the indie/homebrew love it deserves right now when compared to what I see happening on the Genesis. So my proof of concepts are really just to show people there's no good reason for not making new indie/homebrew games on SNES too, just like there's a whole bunch of amazing new games coming to Genesis on a regular basis. And, if I have to use certain comparisons and examples to remind people of some of the ways the SNES even beats the Genesis, along with showing them there's some rather cool things it can do that maybe they never even realised, just to maybe get people excited about doing something on the system, then that's what I'll do.

 

Ideally I'd love to see both systems getting lots of new games that push them to the limits, but the SNES right now isn't getting anywhere near its fair share at all. And I'm a SNES fan first and foremost, so my goal is simply to make sure its in people's minds and show them some of the stuff that could be possible if they actually decided to work on it, and to hopefully get them excited about doing so.

 

Sadly though, even with something like PVSnesLib, there's still nothing for SNES that's anywhere near matured, polished and just user friendly enough to make developing for the system anything more than a major challenge right now imo. And until it's something that's at least approachable by more than just hardcore programming nerds only, it's not going to be supported by all the budding game designers out there in the way it deserves. My fingers are still crossed that some actually-good SDK or development software along the lines of a NESmaker or GameMaker 8.1 is coming in the future though. . . .

[Kirk_Johnston]

7 hours ago, Creamhoven said:

I have made my very own mode 0 proof of concept. It is called Creamhoven and the evil Nooker:

 

Okay, but actually use this tool and see if you can get them properly working in Mode 0's limitations, or else you're cheating: https://rilden.github.io/tiledpalettequant/

 

You crazy fool! Lol

 

Well, at least I don't think that's been done in Mode 0.

 

If you really wanna do it properly though, you could actually use Mode 3 and make that image in 8bpp 256 colours so it looks just like what you're shown above but actually SNES accurate--the same tool I linked can also be used for 8bpp images--and then have a couple of sprites on top for the money bag and tears . . .

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston

[Kirk_Johnston]

5 minutes ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

Okay, but actually use this tool and see if you can get them properly working in Mode 0's limitations, or else you're cheating: https://rilden.github.io/tiledpalettequant/

 

You crazy fool! Lol

 

Well, at least I don't think that's been done in Mode 0.

 

If you really wanna do it properly though, you could actually use Mode 3 and make that image in 8bpp 256 colours so it looks just like what you're shown above but actually SNES accurate--the same tool I linked can also be used for 8bpp images--and then have a couple of sprites on top for the money bag and tears . . .

 

I decided to do it myself using Mode 3:

 

You are welcome! 😛

[Kirk_Johnston]

A slightly better version (still Mode 3--no sprites necessary):

 

Enjoy!

Edited May 21, 2023 by Kirk_Johnston

[Creamhoven]

46 minutes ago, Kirk_Johnston said:

A slightly better version (still Mode 3--no sprites necessary):

 

Enjoy!

This is ameeeezing! I will take mode 0 into consideration, maybe I can make something work.

Edited May 21, 2023 by Creamhoven

[Wayler]

Not very cool to hijack someone's long used avatar like that @Creamhoven. Even if it is in mind blowing mode 0. Just stay with the mutant animals. 

[Creamhoven]

27 minutes ago, Wayler said:

Not very cool to hijack someone's long used avatar like that @Creamhoven. Even if it is in mind blowing mode 0. Just stay with the mutant animals. 

If Tanooki prefers it we could change it with a generic merchant character.